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Thread: Bitcoin

  1. #1
    Craftsman scucivolo's Avatar
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    Bitcoin

    Hi there, wandering how many of us has any experience with Bitcoin.. if yes, would you like to share it with the community?


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  2. #2
    Have you seen this thread? Lot of discussion there.

    http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?386696

  3. #3
    Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Not very knowledgable about it but I do hate the whole concept of it.


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  4. #4
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    Im keen to explore this as well - but it confuses me massively and as such need to do more research

  5. #5
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    I've been investing in Crypto currencies for a while now and believe me there's still massive room for growth long term. Check out this guy's blog it's a great place to start. www.whatbitcoindid.com/

  6. #6
    Coincidentally, just finished writing an article about bitcoin for my employer - should be able to knock off work early!

  7. #7
    Craftsman scucivolo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    Not very knowledgable about it but I do hate the whole concept of it.


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    Why is that?


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  8. #8
    Craftsman scucivolo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kozza6 View Post
    Coincidentally, just finished writing an article about bitcoin for my employer - should be able to knock off work early!
    What sort of article? give me more info XD


    i've never trade, and never will, since i don't have any knowledge about it.. but i did invest a few hundred quid a few months ago.. and i'm impressed in the gain that it had since.. +120%, it's absurd!


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  9. #9
    Please can somebody explain to me how these have value - ie. what is backing the currency?

    I mean what if I were to simply issue my own currency - the Fazer - and sell it on the market? Obviously that is preposterous but I genuinely donít understand the difference...

  10. #10
    More about the history and its recent path to potentially gaining legitimacy as a genuine retail investment product.
    Not there yet but the CME plans to launch bitcoin futures shortly. An ETF is an inevitability which will really launch it in the retail world.
    A five year investment in bitcoin would have returned 65,000% through to October 2017! Although some suggest it has similarities to tulip fever in that it feed investor hysteria and the peaks are further accentuated by massive speculation. Bull market only really returned last year after a two-year hiatus.
    Cheers.

  11. #11
    Craftsman scucivolo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FazerBoy View Post
    Please can somebody explain to me how these have value - ie. what is backing the currency?

    I mean what if I were to simply issue my own currency - the Fazer - and sell it on the market? Obviously that is preposterous but I genuinely donít understand the difference...
    It has value because it something that people wants and there's a limited amount of.. backing it up means, that you buy bitcoin like you would buy anything else in the market.. you could potentially create a new currency yourself, but there again it would have no value as no one would back you up ;)


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  12. #12
    Craftsman scucivolo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kozza6 View Post
    More about the history and its recent path to potentially gaining legitimacy as a genuine retail investment product.
    Not there yet but the CME plans to launch bitcoin futures shortly. An ETF is an inevitability which will really launch it in the retail world.
    A five year investment in bitcoin would have returned 65,000% through to October 2017! Although some suggest it has similarities to tulip fever in that it feed investor hysteria and the peaks are further accentuated by massive speculation. Bull market only really returned last year after a two-year hiatus.
    Cheers.
    alright so it was about commercialisation of the coin.. interesting! i don't see it happening anytime soon though, judging by what i've been reading about scaling problems within the bitcoin blockchain.. any idea as per what you'll be doing in the days approaching the 16th of Nov before the hard fork happens?


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  13. #13
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    Wow , 12% gains today . Looks incredibly risky but looking at its growth in the last couple
    Of years it seems like something Iíd like to get into with a bit of spare money


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  14. #14
    Craftsman scucivolo's Avatar
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    Just beware of the Hard Fork taking place on the 16th of Nov


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    Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scucivolo View Post
    Why is that?


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    Just the security aspect. If your backup or encryption fails you lose the lot with no right to recovery. There's no consumer protection as far as I'm aware. It's also an easy option for money laundering. I can't really think of anywhere I would spend a bitcoin either? Growth has been spectacular but is it real growth - the word bubble springs to mind


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    Quote Originally Posted by scucivolo View Post
    Just beware of the Hard Fork taking place on the 16th of Nov


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    No hard fork on the 16th Nov. It has been cancelled. At least for now.

  17. #17
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    Seems a massive con to me and a lot of people who think they are clever are going to get badly burned when the bubble bursts.

    Why does the 'currency' have any value ?
    How is it backed or underwritten ?

    I just don't see how something so artificial / non-physical can have any value.

    But happy to be educated :-)

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    Just the security aspect. If your backup or encryption fails you lose the lot with no right to recovery. There's no consumer protection as far as I'm aware. It's also an easy option for money laundering. I can't really think of anywhere I would spend a bitcoin either? Growth has been spectacular but is it real growth - the word bubble springs to mind


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    Security. It's pretty secure. Main risk is user error like forgetting your pin or losing your seed. Storing your coins on exchanges is riskier but then don't do it.

    I struggle to spend my gold bar but the price has gone up steadily over the years. Bitcoin won't be used for buying a loaf of bread anytime soon. Large transactions and storing money. While ever there are crazy governments controlling currency cryptos will have a place

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerUK View Post
    Seems a massive con to me and a lot of people who think they are clever are going to get badly burned when the bubble bursts.

    Why does the 'currency' have any value ?
    How is it backed or underwritten ?

    I just don't see how something so artificial / non-physical can have any value.

    But happy to be educated :-)
    Some see the things you have stated as benefits.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerUK View Post
    Seems a massive con to me and a lot of people who think they are clever are going to get badly burned when the bubble bursts.

    Why does the 'currency' have any value ?
    How is it backed or underwritten ?

    I just don't see how something so artificial / non-physical can have any value.

    But happy to be educated :-)
    If you turned up at the bank of england with your promisary note and asked them for your actual money, what do you think actually happens?
    Good luck everybody. Have a good one.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerUK View Post
    Seems a massive con to me and a lot of people who think they are clever are going to get badly burned when the bubble bursts.

    Why does the 'currency' have any value ?
    How is it backed or underwritten ?

    I just don't see how something so artificial / non-physical can have any value.

    But happy to be educated :-)
    Same way a Rolex PN has value. Itís parts value is minimal, but people pay fortunes based on rarity and demand. Thereís a limited number of Bitcoin and demand is high. So values are soaring. But...moods change.

    I suspect that nation states will start to object to currencies they canít control. China looks like the first.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by seikopath View Post
    If you turned up at the bank of england with your promisary note and asked them for your actual money, what do you think actually happens?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corporalsparrow View Post
    Same way a Rolex PN has value. Itís parts value is minimal, but people pay fortunes based on rarity and demand. Thereís a limited number of Bitcoin and demand is high. So values are soaring. But...moods change.

    I suspect that nation states will start to object to currencies they canít control. China looks like the first.
    They can't since it's independent, if private individuals want to deal in crypto currencies then so be it.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  24. #24
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    Just the security aspect. If your backup or encryption fails you lose the lot with no right to recovery. There's no consumer protection as far as I'm aware. It's also an easy option for money laundering. I can't really think of anywhere I would spend a bitcoin either? Growth has been spectacular but is it real growth - the word bubble springs to mind
    Some risk is involved for sure.

    In terms of currency it was never envisioned to be used for your weekly supermarket shop.

    As an 'investment' it has merits - I have a very small amount invested to see how it plays out. If I were to cash in today I would (after a few months) have made around £100 on a £360 invest after fees.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  25. #25
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    I got involved recently putting £10k into it back in September. To put it into watch perspectives I could quite easily buy a 5711 if i cashed out.

  26. #26
    Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Some risk is involved for sure.

    In terms of currency it was never envisioned to be used for your weekly supermarket shop.

    As an 'investment' it has merits - I have a very small amount invested to see how it plays out. If I were to cash in today I would (after a few months) have made around £100 on a £360 invest after fees.
    I understand that. My point re the bubble tho. Bitcoin from 2013 to 2016 would have lost you money. From 2016 to 2017 its soared so question is - is it cyclical is a drop coming but then you could say that about any "investment"


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  27. #27
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    I understand that. My point re the bubble tho. Bitcoin from 2013 to 2016 would have lost you money. From 2016 to 2017 its soared so question is - is it cyclical is a drop coming but then you could say that about any "investment"
    Don't disagree - investment is generally about being savvy and buying/selling appropriately.

    Bitcoin from inception to date - very different ££££'s story!
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    I understand that. My point re the bubble tho. Bitcoin from 2013 to 2016 would have lost you money. From 2016 to 2017 its soared so question is - is it cyclical is a drop coming but then you could say that about any "investment"


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    Bitcoin from the start of 2013 to anywhere in 2016 would of been around 100 x return on investment. If you bought in October 2013 fair enough but the currency would have already gone up 100 fold that year. If you look for the negatives you will find them.

    The Burj Khalifa has 1 star reviews on trip advisor.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    They can't since it's independent, if private individuals want to deal in crypto currencies then so be it.
    Chinese Govt is threatening currency trading companies within China with criminal prosecution if they trade Bitcoin on behalf of clients. Youíre right that Chinese citizens can trade anywhere on the net, however itís a first salvo.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    I got involved recently putting £10k into it back in September. To put it into watch perspectives I could quite easily buy a 5711 if i cashed out.
    ok, where do I buy one and how do I hold it?
    It's just a matter of time...

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    ok, where do I buy one and how do I hold it?
    There are lots of exchanges. The most popular being coinbase.

    You can store it on the exchange but the safest way is to store it on a hardware wallet. Such as a trezor.

  32. #32
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corporalsparrow View Post
    Chinese Govt is threatening currency trading companies within China with criminal prosecution if they trade Bitcoin on behalf of clients. Youíre right that Chinese citizens can trade anywhere on the net, however itís a first salvo.
    Not really - the principle is the currency has no home and the companies will outsource if that ever happened.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  33. #33
    Craftsman scucivolo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    There are lots of exchanges. The most popular being coinbase.

    You can store it on the exchange but the safest way is to store it on a hardware wallet. Such as a trezor.
    Speaking of hardware wallet.. i'd like to add this level of security, but i have no idea what is best and why. any suggestions with explanations as to why choosing one hardware over another?


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  34. #34
    Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    Bitcoin from the start of 2013 to anywhere in 2016 would of been around 100 x return on investment. If you bought in October 2013 fair enough but the currency would have already gone up 100 fold that year. If you look for the negatives you will find them.

    The Burj Khalifa has 1 star reviews on trip advisor.
    The graph shows a period of relative stagnation late 2013 through to 2016. The very sharp and profitable spike that's happened since is why I said bubble. The speed and rate of rise in such a short period is exciting but also a tad alarming


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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    The graph shows a period of relative stagnation late 2013 through to 2016. The very sharp and profitable spike that's happened since is why I said bubble. The speed and rate of rise in such a short period is exciting but also a tad alarming

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    The rise in the 2013 year is the largest it just doesn't show on the graph. Growing from £6 A coin to £600. This year's growth is nothing compared to that. Obviously a graph capped at £6000 A increase of £6 to £600 is going to look small.

  36. #36
    Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    The rise in the 2013 year is the largest it just doesn't show on the graph. Growing from £6 A coin to £600. This year's growth is nothing compared to that. Obviously a graph capped at £6000 A increase of £6 to £600 is going to look small.
    I know. I'm not disputing that - all in the scaling. All I'm saying is it's not been a straight line up graph - there have been flat periods and falls also just like any other investment. Too many bit coin comments seem to be of the kind "get in quick free money double your cash" etc. Just adding a little perspective is all. I have no vested interest. If people make cash out of this then power to their elbow. Fantastic. I'm all for thst


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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    They can't since it's independent, if private individuals want to deal in crypto currencies then so be it.
    It really will be a major game changer and it's easy to see why governments are getting nervous about currency they don't control. Can only be a good thing long term in my opinion.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    I know. I'm not disputing that - all in the scaling. All I'm saying is it's not been a straight line up graph - there have been flat periods and falls also just like any other investment. Too many bit coin comments seem to be of the kind "get in quick free money double your cash" etc. Just adding a little perspective is all. I have no vested interest. If people make cash out of this then power to their elbow. Fantastic. I'm all for thst


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    It pretty much is a straight line up graph. It has gone from from several pence to several thousand pound over 9 years. Yes you can take isolated months where something has happened which has caused a drop i.e. MtGox, China banning exchanges (several times), people calling it a bubble/fraud (Jamie Dimon, Mark Cuban) but looking at it on a year on year basis it has increased.

    The end of the day most people are who are getting involved are pretty late to the party. There are great stories about people making fortunes at the beginning. The guy who bought 2 pizza's in 2009 for what now would equate to £60m worth of Bitcoin. That kind of money wont be made again.

    I like the idea behind it. I like the fact that banks/govt dont control money and we live in a country that isn't too bad. I imagine citizens of Zimbabwe would not mind the non regulated aspect of bitcoin.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by scucivolo View Post
    Speaking of hardware wallet.. i'd like to add this level of security, but i have no idea what is best and why. any suggestions with explanations as to why choosing one hardware over another?


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    Depends on the amount, I have about £1k worth and don't consider it worth spending 10% on a hardware wallet, especially as I rarely do transactions. I do a cold offline wallet so print the keys and store them in the safe, then delete them from my computer.

    I personally would use the ledger nano over the trazor as it uses a proper hardware security module to store the keys, but suspect either is fine for most people.

  40. #40
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    Bitcoin

    I know nothing about Bit Coin but I do know that if you use Twitter it may be worth following
    @haralabob, heís one of the worlds most successful sports bettors and has migrated to Bit Coin and other new wave currencyís and is very well respected


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  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    There are lots of exchanges. The most popular being coinbase.

    You can store it on the exchange but the safest way is to store it on a hardware wallet. Such as a trezor.
    Another option, and perhaps more flexible, is to use a spread bet platform like IG to trade the price fluctuations. That's also a good option for anyone who thinks it IS a bubble.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    I got involved recently putting £10k into it back in September. To put it into watch perspectives I could quite easily buy a 5711 if i cashed out.
    Even after paying the tax due on the gain?

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pointy View Post
    Even after paying the tax due on the gain?
    Comfortably. (If in can buy at RRP).

    But I will wait until Patel accepts Bitcoin that way I don't have to pay tax ��
    Last edited by JPCain86; 9th November 2017 at 12:17.

  44. #44
    I'm looking at investing a large amount (for me) so I'm nervous about my coins being stolen.

    Any pointers on security?

    Also, any pointers on capital gains and how you declare? Presumably through your tax return?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowdon View Post
    I'm looking at investing a large amount (for me) so I'm nervous about my coins being stolen.

    Any pointers on security?

    Also, any pointers on capital gains and how you declare? Presumably through your tax return?
    I use a trezor but as mentioned above other hardwallets are available.

    I wouldn't worry about capital gains until 1. You are in profit and 2. You are cashing out.

  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pointy View Post
    Even after paying the tax due on the gain?
    Is tax due?

  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Is tax due?
    It is on gains realised. Another reason to consider spread betting the price.

  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Jdh1 View Post
    It is on gains realised. Another reason to consider spread betting the price.
    Didn't realize that, thanks.

    Disadvantage of some spread betting companies is that the position is closed after one day (if I remember correctly) or is this normal with spread betting?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Didn't realize that, thanks.

    Disadvantage of some spread betting companies is that the position is closed after one day (if I remember correctly) or is this normal with spread betting?
    The reason I don't like spread betting is the fluctuation involved over daily and monthly periods. Over a few months there's an upwards trends.

  50. #50
    Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdh1 View Post
    It is on gains realised. Another reason to consider spread betting the price.
    Or spreading the withdrawals over different tax years to use 2 lots of annual CGT allowance


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