Bitcoin

[Raffe]

Yeah but my wallet is with me the other one could be anywhere in the world. Also, if either your bank or the recipient bank had decided for any reason not to carry out your instructions the transfer would not have completed

You are completely at their mercy. I had no such worries

Whilst I accept your views on the value of Bitcoin, the value in the technology is astounding

One account is with me, one of the other in the UK and one in Germany.

I also had no such worries as that has never happened. It is literally the banks' business to follow my instructions and transfer money.

You may as well look at Paypal. Or Wise. Or any other of the one million payment startups. All of them are more efficient that bitcoin in doing transfers. All.

[tertius]

One account is with me, one of the other in the UK and one in Germany.

I also had no such worries as that has never happened. It is literally the banks' business to follow my instructions and transfer money.

You may as well look at Paypal. Or Wise. Or any other of the one million payment startups. All of them are more efficient that bitcoin in doing transfers. All.

You are very lucky then I would say.

Short story:

I was buying a car, agreed to buy it and started the payment process.
Due to the cost and the various (different) limits on faster payments I did it with three payments from two different banks (I just had the money sitting in different places)
First payment from bank one went through in seconds
Second and third payments (both from the same bank, different from the first) nothing
I ring them up: “nope, can’t see a problem, sir; no security concerns; faster payments can sometimes take up to two hours; you’ll just have to wait”
Time passes; it’s cold; it’s the time of COVID so we are standing outside …
More time passes …
My phone rings: “this is xxx bank; we have a query about a payment you are making …”
Aaargh!
Etc..

I can easily see the value. And that’s before we get on to the banks laughable security and identification procedures …

[Montello]

I have had payments paused for fraud protection reasons, but isn’t that there for your benefit?

That said I’ve not really found the current banking system difficult, cumbersome or expensive.

It’s easy to shift money around the world in many different ways.

[Raffe]

You are very lucky then I would say.

Short story:

I was buying a car, agreed to buy it and started the payment process.
Due to the cost and the various (different) limits on faster payments I did it with three payments from two different banks (I just had the money sitting in different places)
First payment from bank one went through in seconds
Second and third payments (both from the same bank, different from the first) nothing
I ring them up: “nope, can’t see a problem, sir; no security concerns; faster payments can sometimes take up to two hours; you’ll just have to wait”
Time passes; it’s cold; it’s the time of COVID so we are standing outside …
More time passes …
My phone rings: “this is xxx bank; we have a query about a payment you are making …”
Aaargh!
Etc..

I can easily see the value. And that’s before we get on to the banks laughable security and identification procedures …

These are laws about anti-money laundering that banks need to comply with. It is to force transparency into finance and make money laundering difficult/impossible. You have again confirmed it, the only application of crypto is to avoid anti-money laundering controls. Why would anyone pay such excessive fees plus risk losing truckloads of money with the required exchange transactions on both sides of the transfer if it wasn't for illegal purposes?

[tertius]

These are laws about anti-money laundering that banks need to comply with. It is to force transparency into finance and make money laundering difficult/impossible. You have again confirmed it, the only application of crypto is to avoid anti-money laundering controls. Why would anyone pay such excessive fees plus risk losing truckloads of money with the required exchange transactions on both sides of the transfer if it wasn't for illegal purposes?

I’m not objecting to the AML or the application of it rather it is their incompetence and utter inability to join the left hand to the right hand - see the bit where I said I called them first and was told there are no concerns and I should just “wait”.

[tertius]

I have had payments paused for fraud protection reasons, but isn’t that their for your benefit?

That said I’ve not really found the current banking system difficult, cumbersome or expensive.

It’s easy to shift money around the world in many different ways.

What benefit did I derive in the example I gave?

Note that my example was in no way claiming that “banks are always bad” merely countering Raffle’s comment that he had “never experienced any delay” and showing how it can and does happen and that when it does the banks are fairly useless at explaining why.

[Raffe]

What benefit did I derive in the example I gave?

Note that my example was in no way claiming that “banks are always bad” merely countering Raffle’s comment that he had “never experienced any delay” and showing how it can and does happen and that when it does the banks are fairly useless at explaining why.

My point is that banks are legally obliged to do this checks. Yes, some have poor processes and manual checks that sometime lead to almost comical situations.

But if bitcoin's only advantage is that it has no AML checks, then my point about it being nothing but a tool to transfer illegal money is confirmed. It simply has no other utility.

[Daveya.]

Well, banks don't offer facilities to everyone, many parts of the world don't have it, about billion people according to Google . If they have internet they have access to Crytpo and an option to buy and sell etc. Is it being used for these noble aims more than criminal activity, probably not, but still

[Raffe]

Well, banks don't offer facilities to everyone, many parts of the world don't have it, about billion people according to Google . If they have internet they have access to Crytpo and an option to buy and sell etc. Is it being used for these noble aims more than criminal activity, probably not, but still

That has been solved many years ago. There are apps that facilitate cash transfers in any emerging country around the world (except NK).

Crypto is just a "get rich quick" scheme with plenty of libertarian ideology and right wing memes. It was never meant to help the poor or the disenfranchised.

[Daveya.]

Well, the original guy wanted it too, what it's become is a different story

[tertius]

My point is that banks are legally obliged to do this checks. Yes, some have poor processes and manual checks that sometime lead to almost comical situations.

But if bitcoin's only advantage is that it has no AML checks, then my point about it being nothing but a tool to transfer illegal money is confirmed. It simply has no other utility.

I think you are leaping to a conclusion there, my anecdote was merely responding to your statement:

I also had no such worries as that has never happened. It is literally the banks' business to follow my instructions and transfer money.

I gave a real example where the bank did not “follow my instructions” in a reasonable time; conveniently it was in a situation where a different bank actually did “follow my instructions” as part of the exact same transaction …

Because this sort of thing can and does happen I can fully understand why people might be interested in the possibilities of systems like Bitcoin. However, I am not sure that means that they necessarily want to make illegal money transfers or conduct other fraud. Nor that that is the only advantage anyone might find in it.

[Raffe]

And what I am saying is that AML is a feature and not a bug. If you use crypto because it lacks AML, you have found the only valid use case.

[tertius]

And what I am saying is that AML is a feature and not a bug. If you use crypto because it lacks AML, you have found the only valid use case.

Well I more or less agree with that; though I would say the implementation of AML processes is (or can be) a bug and if someone (for example) thinks, “I want to be in control of how my money is moved or not” then I would absolutely understand why they might think that; and it would not be because they want to subvert AML itself but because they find the way they have to engage in it frustrating.

I would also dispute the “only valid use case” - I think there are (and probably will be) other use cases for crypto, such as micro payments, though they certainly don’t justify the current madness in any fashion.

As I have said before I don’t think we really know what or how we are going to be using crypto yet (if at all) and there are a lot of growing pains to experience before we do. Something like the dot com boom where a thousand failures begat a handful of successes and then a developing understanding and expansion may be a reasonable, though not exact, parallel.

[Raffe]

Well I more or less agree with that; though I would say the implementation of AML processes is (or can be) a bug and if someone (for example) thinks, “I want to be in control of how my money is moved or not” then I would absolutely understand why they might think that; and it would not be because they want to subvert AML itself but because they find the way they have to engage in it frustrating.

I would also dispute the “only valid use case” - I think there are (and probably will be) other use cases for crypto, such as micro payments, though they certainly don’t justify the current madness in any fashion.

As I have said before I don’t think we really know what or how we are going to be using crypto yet (if at all) and there are a lot of growing pains to experience before we do. Something like the dot com boom where a thousand failures begat a handful of successes and then a developing understanding and expansion may be a reasonable, though not exact, parallel.

Don't disagree with that.

I still see crypto at large as a solution in search of a problem. So far I haven't seen a convincing one, in the end proof will be in the eating.

[demonloop]

My transfer was not illegal or an attempt to launder money. So there!

[Raffe]

My transfer was not illegal or an attempt to launder money. So there!

Yes, but there are hundreds of cheaper ways to achieve the transfer of money, PayPal being one of them. You are looking for a problem that doesn't exist.

[Daveya.]

Bloody hell my NFT in Sean Dyche just crashed

[demonloop]

Yes, but there are hundreds of cheaper ways to achieve the transfer of money, PayPal being one of them. You are looking for a problem that doesn't exist.

No way can PayPal transfer that amount for a dollar. Not a chance. Small amounts, I’ll concede it’s very convenient and works most of the time flawlessly

[Raffe]

No way can PayPal transfer that amount for a dollar. Not a chance. Small amounts, I’ll concede it’s very convenient and works most of the time flawlessly

Payments without insurance are free on PayPal. And on Wise. And on a hundred other payment apps.

[demonloop]

Payments without insurance are free on PayPal. And on Wise. And on a hundred other payment apps.

There must be a payment limit? And I imagine I was well over it

[Raffe]

Still short. I think this has quite a bit more potential to drop further. $38.8 now.

[petethegeek]

Now you can comfortably put in an early morning workout knowing you won't miss the market action, and as an added bonus the box they came in is working just as hard generating fresh coins.

https://www.bitsneaks.com/

[Raffe]

Now you can comfortably put in an early morning workout knowing you won't miss the market action, and as an added bonus the box they came in is working just as hard generating fresh coins.

https://www.bitsneaks.com/

Sometimes hard to differentiate between reality and parody. What convinced me was that they built a feature into the shoes to turn the display colour purple once bitcoin hits $1,000,000.

[Raffe]

If you are wondering why Ethereum gets hammered this morning:

It's related to a fraud that happened this morning with BEAN coins, a credit "stablecoin" built on the Ethereum chain. The attacker borrowed enough "governance" coins to be able to vote through any proposal, then proposed to send themselves all the cash and returned the borrowed governance coins. Absurd doesn't even begin to cover it. GoVeRnAnCe my arse.

$182 million gone.

[Daveya.]

Think that's three or four days ago, the further delay POW to POS having an impact

[Raffe]

Think that's three or four days ago, the further delay POW to POS having an impact

Correct, the voting happened two days ago and was discovered yesterday.

Interestingly, the hack was legally not a theft, it was an exploit of the protocol. A feature, not a bug, if you like.

Why would anyone pay you a hefty return to borrow governance coins if not to manipulate governance. As always, geed and poor governance don't go well together.

[Daveya.]

No they don't. Could have happened on Sol on ADA of course, not just an ETH issue.

What indicators are you looking at to decided when to close the short out of interest

[Raffe]

I am looking for capitulation.

[Raffe]

That was an unexpected move....

Not sure what to think of it.

[Daveya.]

That was an unexpected move....

Not sure what to think of it.

Yahoo's theory

[JPCain86]

Can anyone sell me $1660 usdt for GBP?

[Raffe]

Yahoo's theory

I have heard anecdotal reports of this, don't think this is bullish at all. Big accounts unloading into small accounts is usually a pretty good tell for a top.

[Raffe]

Buckle up, bitcoin bros. Could be an ugly weekend ahead.

[Daveya.]

Panama have shat on everyone why dey du dis

[mr noble]

Just set a few limit orders.

Sol, Luna and Shib all about 10% lower than they are now.

- - - Updated - - -

Buckle up, bitcoin bros. Could be an ugly weekend ahead.

What is the reasoning behind this theory Raffe?

[Raffe]

Why would anyone buy SHIB?

[mr noble]

Why would anyone buy SHIB?

Errrrr, to make a profit. It’s pretty easy buying Shib on dips. Seems to go up by a far larger percentage than others when things bounce.

[Raffe]

Errrrr, to make a profit. It’s pretty easy buying Shib on dips. Seems to go up by a far larger percentage than others when things bounce.

That it has absolutely zero utility doesn't seem to feature in your analysis?

Number go up sufficient. Crypto in a nutshell.

[Daveya.]

Yeah but you gotta buy at the bottom of the dips, this doesn't feel like the bottom

[Daveya.]

We haven't suspended mining, it's covering costs , small profit , but paying back the capital has gone from 2 yrs to about 10

Great fun

[mr noble]

That it has absolutely zero utility doesn't seem to feature in your analysis?

Number go up sufficient. Crypto in a nutshell.

Absolutely. Who cares about utility in crypto. People just wanna play at the casino!

I must say, for my buy and hold portfolio, I obviously care very much about utility and which L1/L2s will be here in 10 years time. But for quick bets/trading, I don’t care a jot, it’s just having a dabble at market timing based on nothing more than hunches and media reporting.

Yeah but you gotta buy at the bottom of the dips, this doesn't feel like the bottom

Well, yes. Hence why I said I’ve placed limit orders 10% below the prices at the time. I don’t have the time to sit looking at the charts all day waiting to snipe the bottom, so just have to rely on limit orders.

[Daveya.]

The day they have actual data to chart for crypto rather than candles though....

[ryanb741]

I've been slowly accumulating ETH, bit by bit and staking it with coinbase to get ETH2.

This isn't advice, just a heads up on my current plan which will be to acquire ETH only

[mr noble]

I think thats a risky plan, Ryan. Sol, Terra or any other lesser known L1, like Kadena, could quickly shine if ETH runs into problems for any reason.

With ETH2 on the horizon, things could go bad just as easily as they could go well.

I'd be spreading my bets across a few L1s rather than going all in on one.

[Daveya.]

The year is 2045, Prime Minister Harry Kane announces Eth2 delayed again

[Raffe]

Just set a few limit orders.

Sol, Luna and Shib all about 10% lower than they are now.

- - - Updated - - -



What is the reasoning behind this theory Raffe?

So you just bought all three?

[mr noble]

So you just bought all three?

Bought the Shib. Only 40,000,000 (£600)

Missed SOL and LUNA by less than $1 each. Dammit.


I suspect they’ll both go lower and I’ll get them on the next dip.


Already 8% up on the Shiba Inu.

[Raffe]

Great. If you're really lucky it it may pay for a family brunch one day.

[mr noble]

Great. If you're really lucky it it may pay for a family brunch one day.

No need to be a patronising #%^*

Not all of us do it for a living. It’s a hobby.

[Raffe]

Idk but rumours in the market that Tesla is selling their bitcoin...