Reply With QuoteIt's quarter past two in the morning in Los Angeles (or quarter past four in Houston).
Take a guess what Elon has been up to:
That maybe so, but at the point when people are taking out loans to 'invest' into Dogecoin, it all becomes less of a joke and moves into criminal territory.Originally Posted by petethegeek
Elon Musk is a very sick person. He doesn't belong where he is.
It's quarter past two in the morning in Los Angeles (or quarter past four in Houston).
Take a guess what Elon has been up to:
Back above $40k today.
Inevitable.
The CEOs and CFOs at the Microstrategy Bitcoin conference filling their personal boots lol.
Tesla disclose a 1.5bn investment in BTC. Buckle up!
https://twitter.com/cointradernik/st...57264090427393
Last edited by demonloop; 8th February 2021 at 14:07.
Nice
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One of the most toxic men in business for me, so much free government aid and tax incentives thrown at Tesla over the years...
Wonder who will be next..
Raffe :-)
It would be worthwhile for everyone to try and understand bitcoin, particularly given the current macro environment. Do not form an opinion/take someone else's opinion until you have.
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Elon Musk reminds me of Kanye West: brilliant but seriously unstable.
Agreed.
Buttcoin? Is that where someone gives you a heap of cash and you sit on it?
Don't hold your breath.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Agree. Reading or listening to The Bitcoin Standard is a good starting point. There is lots of other good material out there too.
Yes that's a very good start. Sign up for a month free trial of audible and you can get that audio book with your free credit (you get 2 credits to use). Particularly interesting for me was the history of money through the ages. With the seemingly unlimited printing by central banks, I can't see how fiat currencies won't go the way like all previous monetary systems.
Maybe Rolex should run central banks.. they seem to have perfected unlimited production with higher values!
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What a difference two weeks can make....
Market manipulationWhat a difference two weeks can make....
Probably made a few million from that tweet
So... can demonloop hold his breath for longer than Raffe can retain his fifty smackers?
Bitcoin is currently around 20% up on yesterday so closer to $300 million.
Cynical and hypocritical too as he's supposed to be in the green Vehicle/energy business and mining the bitcoins is a waste of energy, mostly done in China and China's a huge burner of fossil fuels...not really a virtuous circle then.
Last edited by Passenger; 9th February 2021 at 09:50.
Done in China due to country’s cheap renewable energy.
Yes there are a few reports and articles stating that a large proportion of the energy used is from sustainable sources, but I’m not convinced.
Whether renewable or not, it's a waste of energy which could be saved or used for better purposes.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Since 2011 they've burnt more fossil fuesl than all the rest of us combined and emits around one quarter of the worlds green house gases, the largest share of any country. Though I suppose anything is possible...but as with so much about China, how can we ever be sure...and worth noting that as recently as 2019 almost 58 per cent of it's energy was from coal.
Either way as Raffe observes, a waste of energy.
Last edited by Passenger; 9th February 2021 at 10:08.
Greenhouse gases per capita are similar to EU and ~3x that of the US.
Same (+environmental destruction) for gold production.
Thought I read they'd surpassed the EU not so long ago, could be misrecalling, yes the septics are greedy sods, but the current bloke in charge seems headed in the right direction.
I suppose it is possible it's all powered, bitcoin mining, exclusively by windmills and solar, though those still nights might be a challenge.
Last edited by Passenger; 9th February 2021 at 10:35.
Fair argument that BTC consumes a lot of energy, and there are arguments to support it also. Here's one:
https://www.danheld.com/blog/2019/1/5/pow-is-efficent
Interesting to see how BTC mining energy costs compares to other monetary systems.
*Dan Held is a hodler so is biased!
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I am not arguing for gold to displace the banking system. Never have, never will.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
This chart would only make the remotest bit of sense if bitcoin would displace the banking system, which it obviously never will.Fair argument that BTC consumes a lot of energy, and there are arguments to support it also. Here's one:
https://www.danheld.com/blog/2019/1/5/pow-is-efficent
Interesting to see how BTC mining energy costs compares to other monetary systems.
*Dan Held is a hodler so is biased!
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After 10+ years, it doesn't even stand for one thousandth of a percent of transactions globally, probably not even for a millionth. If you deduct the criminal transactions, it stands for pretty much exactly ZERO adoption. There are at least one hundred fintech payment solutions which have started after bitcoin and which are showing traction - bitcoin is still nothing but a longshot bet on some kind of future adoption which nobody can explain what it is (compare South Sea bubble).
A message to all the hodlers: in a bigger-fool environment, the definition of who is the fool at any period in time is pretty straightforward: the one who currently owns it.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
I agree it won't replace the financial system but I personally think Bitcoin is perfect as a store of value. It's better at being gold than gold itself, and I think companies will eventually come round to having a portion of their treasury held in BTC given the increasing money supply narrative/devaluation of fiat.
In any case, I was just pointing out the argument from others that BTC is a big waste of energy. No doubt mining BTC does use up a lot, but one needs to put it in perspective. If thats the angle stopping you investing in crypto - then consider other projects based on proof-of-stake that use minimal energy, and as Raffe says, getting lots of traction already. There's lots of info on crypto out there and I'm just a couple months into learning about it. Really fascinating stuff..
I may be a little naïve here but does this not constitute insider dealing and if so is it not illegal in America ?
Cheers
Simon
Ralph Waldo Emerson: We ask for long life, but 'tis deep life, or noble moments that signify. Let the measure of time be spiritual, not mechanical.
Raffe would be the expert but I'm not sure if Bitcoin is regulated or not, I've never touched it. It definitely stinks though.
I guess it's not uncommon for the visionaries (not that I think Kanye is particularly a visionary, or even remotely interesting) to be a bit on the crazy side..
Bitcoin is not regulated
Thanks, if its unregulated, then I guess anyone can create a rumour and try and manipulate the price perfectly legally ?
Cheers
Simon
Ralph Waldo Emerson: We ask for long life, but 'tis deep life, or noble moments that signify. Let the measure of time be spiritual, not mechanical.
Not quite.
It's not about manipulating the price of Bitcoin but about manipulating the price of Tesla. If Musk has bought Tesla shares himself (unlikely) or has told others about Tesla's BTC buying programme and those have bought Tesla shares, then there is a clear case to be argued about insider trading. Does it also apply if Musk or people who received the info from him bought Bitcoin rather than Tesla shares? Here it becomes a little less clear-cut. I think it is obvious to everybody and their dog that an announcement by Tesla that they have bought 1.5 bln USD worth of Bitcoin would move the market - but might still be difficult to prove in a court case that Musk should have expected just that.
https://learn.saylor.org/course/view.php?id=468
Here's a link to an online course about bitcoin. Not done it myself but coming from chief evangelist Michael Saylor himself..
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i wouldn't fancy paying/selling a car in BTC - particularly buying it as the BTC needed is very unstable vs the traditional currency for selling cars in. I can see Tesla might not mind but imagine if you had paid for your car in BTC 3 years ago. Although good to see criminals can move into more environmental forms of transport now.
What's the cost of the American military complex to protect the hegemony of the USD?
Probably a tad more than bitcoin mining costs
Tesla is one of the early domino's, let's see what other companies start coming out with the same.
A 1% BTC holding on the balance sheet has limited downside, but plenty of upside.
It'll be interesting if a non-ostracised nation state repositions. That will be another domino.
DYOR, as always.
This guy seems to have a pretty decent handle on it ...
https://www.ft.com/content/9be5ad05-...70V80jLbBSRaUA
Text for the unwashed ->
Claims that bitcoin is the new “digital gold” are feeding a new bubble in it and other cryptocurrencies. The last one in 2017-18 saw bitcoin go from $1,000 to $20,000 and then fall back to $3,000 by the end of 2018.
Since the fundamental value of bitcoin is zero and would be negative if a proper carbon tax was applied to its massive polluting energy-hogging production, I predict that the current bubble will eventually end in another bust.
Referring to bitcoin or other crypto as “currencies” is a misnomer. They are not a unit of account: virtually nothing is priced in them. They are not a scalable means of payment: with bitcoin you can do five transactions per second while the Visa network does 24,000. Bitcoins are barely used by legitimate companies as payment for goods and services, although Tesla said it planned to start accepting them.
Crypto is not a stable store of value: even some crypto conferences refuse to accept them as payment for attendance fees. The volatile price moves can wipe out any profit margin of a merchant within a matter of hours. They aren’t even denominated in a consistent way that allows users to compare relative prices of goods. This reliance on different tokens is effectively a return to barter. The Flintstones had a more sophisticated monetary system based on a benchmark: the cartoon cavemen used shells.
Even referring to crypto as assets is a misnomer. Most assets have a stream of income (stocks, bonds, commercial real estate) or a use (housing) or some other utility (fiat currency provides liquidity and can be used for payments). Gold has no income but it has industrial uses. It also has utility as a store of value and a hedge against inflation, currency debasement and tail risks.
Crypto has no income, no utility, no payment or other services. It isn’t even anonymous because the underlying blockchain technology makes it easy to trace payments. It is only a play on a speculative asset bubble, worse than tulip-mania as flowers had and still have utility. Its store of value against tail risks is unproven. And worse: some cryptos, dubbed “shitcoins”, are financial scams in the first place or debased daily by their sponsor. Bitcoin’s price is highly volatile, and claims of misbehaviour, including pump and dump, spoofing, wash trading and front-running by exchanges, are widespread.
Stablecoins claim to be superior.*But New York authorities are already investigating whether one, tether, is being used to manipulate the price of bitcoin.
Vitalik Buterin, a co-founder of the cryptocurrency ethereum, argues that no crypto can be at the same time scalable, safe and decentralised. Traditional financial systems are scalable and safe: if your credit card or bank account is hacked or stolen, you are made whole. But they are centralised because participants and assets are verified by trusted institutions. Right now, crypto is neither scalable nor safe. If your private key is stolen or lost, the assets are gone for good.
It isn’t even decentralised. Oligopolistic miners control most bitcoin mining. Many are out of reach of western law enforcement in places such as China, Russia and Belarus, creating a national security nightmare. About 99 per cent of bitcoin trading occurs on centralised exchanges, which may be hackable. Furthermore, the original programmers retain outsized control over their creations. In some cases they act as police, prosecutors and judges, and reverse transactions that are supposed to be immutable. Nor is crypto equitable: a small number of “whales” control much of bitcoin’s value.
This undermines claims that crypto will decentralise finance, provide banking services to the unbanked, or make the poor rich. Blockchain claims to enable cheap money transfers to refugees, but crypto is much more likely to provide cover for scam artists, conmen, tax evaders, criminals, terrorists and human traffickers.
Our world is beset by financial crises, geopolitical risks and very loose monetary policy. There is growing demand for safe haven assets that are a hedge against inflation, currency depreciation and debasement and tail risks. Gold, inflation-indexed bonds, commodities, real estate and even equities are all reasonable candidates.
Risky, volatile bitcoin doesn’t belong in the portfolios of serious institutional investors. Many of its retail backers are suckers being manipulated by an army of self-serving insiders and snake oil salesmen. Tesla’s Elon Musk and MicroStrategy’s Michael Saylor may be betting the house on bitcoin. That doesn’t mean you should.
Having read it, I see when you say "This guy seems to have a pretty decent handle on it", you mean he shares your opinion.
Last edited by demonloop; 11th February 2021 at 15:16.
It isn’t even anonymous because the underlying blockchain technology makes it easy to trace payments
You can trace payments between two anonymous wallets, that makes it anonymous in my book.
And worse: some cryptos, dubbed “shitcoins”, are financial scams in the first place or debased daily by their sponsor
This is true, but not relevent to bitcoin
claims of misbehaviour, including pump and dump, spoofing, wash trading and front-running by exchanges, are widespread
So, just like Wall Street then
If your private key is stolen or lost, the assets are gone for good
True: same as losing your wallet, so you take care of it.
Furthermore, the original programmers retain outsized control over their creations
Anyone heard much from Satoshi lately?
Nor is crypto equitable: a small number of “whales” control much of bitcoin’s value
Not true, sauce:
https://twitter.com/woonomic/status/...widget%3DTweet
What an article!
Yes, who is he, some professor?
We had enough of experts!
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Roubini.. Just like when he had a decent handle when calling the stock market to crash in 2016, but yes fair enough he called the asset bubble in 2013.
Like I said earlier - do your own research. Question what people say - what are their motives.. If you don't have an opinion, there are more than enough people (even on here) to give you one.
Yeah some guy who's been to college, and has the ability to retain and regurgitate stuff he's read in a book.
Sure don't we all know a few of those guys!
and tbf even crazy Elon didn't bet the whole house on bitcoin, only 8 per cent iirc.
Heres' what still gives me pause...So if Bitcoin is beset by the same problems as Wall St., aren't you just replacing one slightly crooked game with another slightly, perhaps more crooked game, except that the new game crypto/ Bitcoin, has an even more distant relationship to the real economy AND not even a figleaf of oversight..hmmm
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