Reply With QuoteThe Hawks currently used are around 30 - 35 years old so I would presume they are going to get the upgraded version that is still in production.
They used the Folland Gnat up to 1979, and have only ever used UK made and designed aircraft.
According to this the Red Arrows will be getting new aircraft. I don't believe they've ever been equipped with other than UK-built aircraft, but what British-built plane could replace the Hawk?
The Hawks currently used are around 30 - 35 years old so I would presume they are going to get the upgraded version that is still in production.
They used the Folland Gnat up to 1979, and have only ever used UK made and designed aircraft.
tucano
It is just the upgraded Hawk already introduced to the RAF.
I doubt that, the Tucano goes out of service in 2019.Originally Posted by davie0146
Most likely the Hawk T2 I'd have thought.
Looks like a new competition coming up to replace the Hawk fleet, including the Red Arrows aircraft. They'll get the upgraded Hawks anyway, but the new aircraft won't probably see service until 2030, so not a problem to worry about just yet!
I think that the entire Hawk T2 fleet (48) has already been delivered - buying another 10 might be hard to justify.
What we will potentially have spare are some of the early Typhoons (T1 + F2 models) - The USAF Thunderbirds + USN Blue Angels both used F4s in the past and both use combat types (F16/F18) today so why go for Training aircraft?
Mystery solved!
The operating costs are a big factor for a display team. The UK MoD does not have the infinite budget of the USN or USAF.
Think I read that The Blue Angels get 'retired' air frames ie taken out of active service. Prob getting bashed on carrier decks stresses the frame somewhat
http://www.popularmechanics.com/mili...t-doesnt-want/
Fantastic aircraft the T2!
Yep.
And previous to that the RAF display team were called the Red Pelicans and used Hunting Jet Provosts so always trainers in recent years although previously there had been Hunters and Lightnings.
Cheers,
Neil.
Red Arrows Lightnings must have been quite a sight!
Cheers..
Jase
Wasn't the RAf display team that flew Hunters called the Black Arrows?
Yup 111(f) sqn. Think they still have the record for largest formation Ina loop.
The idea of the Red Arrows with Typhoons is pretty mouthwatering, isn't it?
M
Last edited by snowman; 1st November 2016 at 17:28.
We'll according to my late Father in Law, nothing would ever match the Gnat... he wasn't a fan of the flashy Hawk ;-)
He should have a bit of knowledge having been the longest team member with 10 years under his belt (7 more than you were really allowed!)
Also he would HATE all the displays the 'Blues' get up to these days.
That and the fact that as a (admittedly very capable ) prop plane it would lose an awful lot of the fast jet wow factor.
Bound to be Hawk T2, they will just nick 10 from Valley or wherever they are based these days.
I expect he must have had some tales to tell.
Maybe with the Pound only worth 3d these days, they'll buy a load of old Gnat's back from the scrapyard or Democratic Republic of Whereverland
M.
I was at Wattisham Airbase a couple of years ago for work and whilst driving along the old taxi way past some H.A.S. I noticed that a door was open on one of them and inside was a Hunter being sprayed gloss black. The aircraft was a surviving example of the Black Arrows (one of the Red Arrows precursor teams) the owner was putting it back in to its original colours. This guy had a collection of vintage aircraft including a Provost, a Vampire as well as a couple Gazelles and a Wasp. Unfortunately none were air worthy but he did have a plan / dream
He was happy for me to walk around and sit in them. I didn't get much work done that day as I kept popping back to see how he was getting on.
I am hoping that he will be there again when I am up there next. Although I have often wondered how he managed to get access and use for a Hardened Aircraft Shelter on an active military airbase.
Wow I had no idea of the history, we seemed to have a lot of display teams so where's the money gone nowadays?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Arrows
I couldn't find a lightning display, it must have been something else
just the take off itself is spectacular
What might you expect those tales be then.........
The EE Lightning was a fast interceptor designed to engage Russian bombers at extreme range as quickly as possible, rather like the F104 star fighter. It wasn't designed to be manoeuvrable, just to have the ability to climb vertically. They would make for a pretty poor display spectacle at the usual 300-400 Knots and would be pretty dangerous to formate with at low speeds too I should coco.
Last edited by Padders; 1st November 2016 at 19:34.
Saw 2 hank T2s at southport. Great looking and sounding aircraft. 9 of them together will be awesome.
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That photo really emphasises how small the Gnat was. Although far more attractive, it reminds me of an old PZL TS-11 that sits outside a petrol station near my place in Poland. Seems so small and sits so close to the ground that it scarcely looks like a real flyable aircraft.
I'm just amazed they're keeping the red arrows, it's been a very emotive subject inside and outside of the military, quite a lot of reductions and savings everywhere, whilst we still manage to have two display squadrons
Also, wasn't the Lightning's maximum duration something well under an hour? Displays would have had to be pretty close to home base.
They were called The Firebirds Jason.
I saw them as a boy back in the day.
Nice livery!
Cheers,
Neil.
I saw the Firebirds back in the day and believe me the sound and sight of those things with afterburners on was very dramatic and to me more exciting than close formations of trainers.
Cheers,
Neil.
They were indeed and prior to that it was the Blue Diamonds.
Cheers,
Neil.
Getting involved with this thread made me get out my old RAF Biggin Hill programmes I have kept all these years and the older shows blew away the modern displays in both quality and quantity IMO.
As an example from RAF Biggin Hill 1967 flying display we have;
Whirlwind
Wessex
Wasp
Vickers Gunbus and SE5A
Hawker Hart
Gladiator
Chipmunk aerobatic formation
Beagle Pup
Gnat
Canberra
Hunter
Lightning formation
Hurricane
Spitfire
Sioux
Jet Provosts
Andover
Lightnings
Canberra
Shackleton
Hercules
Victor
Vulcan
Britannia
Stampes
Sea Vixen
Gannet
Red Arrows
Buccaneer
Swordfish.
From the USAF:
Phantoms
F-100's
Voodoo's
Can you imagine a show of such variety and content size anywhere nowadays?
Cheers,
Neil.
I very much doubt that they will get bespoke T2's, and they won't have access to the Valley ones. Typhoon tranche 1's would have prohibitively high running costs and mega high maintenance v flying hours, will be interesting to see what pans out, whatever happens it will no doubt be financed hugely by BAE as they contribute vast sums already to help sell the Hawk etc...
Sits close to the ground? Change that to FLYS please....!!
"when does he pull up lads"
"what do you mean pull up?"
If you ever wondered why the RAF made the rule that HAS (hardened aircraft shelter) doors needs to be closed while a plane is in flight – like in the background below – it was due to they practice of them flying the GNAT through them given half a chance!! Well, so the story goes...
I found a few pics, while getting the Xmas decs out. My Father in Law always claimed it was a trick of the eye a lot of stunts were not a close as they seemed as they were on opposite sides of the width of the runway - but when he was asked by non Red pilots to pull in as tight as the Reds do, they always panicked and pulled the stick! And the width of a runway at xxx-mph is close still!
Last edited by OliverCD; 20th December 2016 at 13:50.
That's a terrific line up, I only know of one flying Gladiator nowadays. The thing I remember about my first airshow (I must have been under 10 years old) is the way they threw the aircraft around during the display - fond memories of a Spitfire at Shoreham being put into a spin and pulling out fairly low!
My father was based at Coltishall late 50's early 60's and I can remember going to their open / family days, he was part of the team that built the flight simulator for the lightning I've still got a couple of folders of his circuit drawings etc. I was only very young then but can still remember the displays that were put on there, I never forgot the sight and sounds of them taking off.
https://youtu.be/DzMNx3lHFOU
They haven't got 10 spare T2's at Valley!
Retaining the Red Arrows is a political decision and it seems to me that political decisions do not need to rely on reality. If the politicians say that there are spare planes then there will be spare planes -- somehow.
How many T.2s does Valley have? About 30? Well, losing 10 would be entirely within the realms of imaginable defence cuts so transferring 10 to the Red Arrows (or perhaps 'sharing' them in some way) is believable.
Clearly I am using cynical tongue in cheek hyperbole here. I know that nothing has been decided and perhaps the money will be found to buy 10+ dedicated aircraft of some type. But believe me when I say that nothing I wrote above is incompatible with the thinking of politicians on matters military.
Last edited by markrlondon; 20th December 2016 at 21:07.
There are surely two obvious reasons:
(1) Soft power, innit. The Red Arrows flying all over the world look cool. They work well for political missions selling UK PLC, both commercially and in terms of soft power influence. See Red Arrows in China recently, for example. (I have to say that the idea of soft power may be delusional in the longer term (i.e. without real power to back it up) but it's clearly unwritten policy).
(2) If the Red Arrows were to be unfunded then there would be outcry and it would not pass quickly. It would make clear the extent of cuts and people who had not previous cared about defence cuts would begin to get upset. As a politician it's ok to rob defence capability and put the nation at risk if most people don't notice, don't care, or don't believe there is a genuine risk but removing the Red Arrows would make it all real for people.
Last edited by markrlondon; 21st December 2016 at 11:48.
To be fair, finding the money for 10 Hawk T2s and associated spares is fairly easy, especially at cost price.
It's running them that is the seriously expensive bit, and I'm not talking fuel etc, I'm talking about the airworthiness regime that sits around the operation of any military aircraft.
That said, its there for the current Hawk T1s, so the cost to obtain T2s wouldn't be insurmountable I don't think.
They've got plenty of time to decide what to do anyway, almost too much time really so things could all change again.
If Brexit goes particularly badly, who knows what further defence cuts are coming?
This is my thinking too. They will find a way to 'redeploy' them. It has to be the Valley Hawks, I don't think any government minister will be brave enough to publicly announce a fresh £150m spend (wild guess) on trinkets like display planes. Unless of course they redeploy while quietly expanding fast jet training investment at the same time. Such is politics.
£150m is small change, MOD budget is in the region of £36bn per year.
It isn't the money, it is the headlines. BTW looking at Wiki, I may have underestimated since they have the 2003 unit cost at £18m so maybe £250m is more realistic today. Many would support the spending, I would, but many will consider it madness and it wont play well on the front page of the Guardian, particularly when they link it to an army unit who lose their heli-lift capacity or armoured transport or whatever as a result. Everything has consequences and the budget is finite and shrinking. I would love to be proved wrong but I really doubt there will be an announcement of 10 new Hawks being procured for this reason any time soon. There isn't an alternative so Hawk T2 it will be so where else can they get them?
ps Hawks are currently being manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, if more are to be purchased, maybe they willl look there.
Last edited by Padders; 21st December 2016 at 11:24.
But set to shrink a lot in the next four years.
And that's without finding the money to spend on new equipment and programmes for the front line military, many of which are already agreed and underway.
The capital cost isn't the issue, it's the operating cost over the life of the aircraft that is more challenging. The current T1 maintenance contracts are circa £300m (2016 to 2020) http://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/arti...gineering-jobs which I believe includes the red arrows hawks. So their maintenance costs are piggy backed onto an operational aircraft costs (well, a training aircraft for the RAF). On top of that you've got the continuing airworthiness structure, which again is shared across the platform.
So, realistically, the next red arrows aircraft is likely to be whatever else is being used to train RAF pilots, otherwise it quickly becomes a £0.5Bn investment decision and in that case I can well foresee a scenario where the defence minister stands up and says he/she has had to make a choice between equipping our front line defence or funding a display team, and we know how that would pan out.
Last edited by Tooks; 21st December 2016 at 11:24.
Hawk T1 Out Of Service Date is 2030, unless they extend it again.
They've got at least 6 years to make a decision and procure the requisite number of T2s, and it would be justified on the basis of investment in British jobs and engineering.
I think a lot will depend on what comes out of the recent Far East tour, if that generates orders/business then it could be an easy decision.
Mind you, the Minister has already announced the Red Arrows will be getting new aircraft, so it would be some u-turn, but easier for a subsequent Government to do I suppose.
And we all know, no politician would ever go back on any commitment, right?
M.
They certainly didn't seem to have many restrictions on what they did then!
I was watching a film recently about fighters of the '50's and a lot of it was filmed at Farnborough air shows with some quite hair raising flying, incredibly low over spectators heads!
It seemed like all the aircraft/teams were trying to outdo one another with their derring-do.
Wouldn't happen nowadays.
Cheers,
Neil.
I think a lot of that stopped when the DH110 (Sea Vixen prototype) crashed into the crowd in 1952. 29 died. Rather shockingly, the air displays continued while they carried away the casualties: different times. After that no flying directly over spectators were allowed plus some other restrictions which I forget.
There is an excellent book about the British aerospace industry called 'Empire of the clouds', it discusses all this and more.
Oh and it does happen a bit these days, I sat in with the ground controllers for an airshow at a Naval airbase and witnessed a big b@llocking being given to a chap in a Hunter (I think) who repeatedly flew too fast and low despite radio warnings. They called him in and carpeted him, not sure if he was allowed back.
Last edited by Padders; 21st December 2016 at 12:56.
The budget is protected and not set to shrink unless you have a link in not aware of?
They could also look at corporate sponsorship from BAE and others to fund I guess.
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