Vostok Amphibia Destruction Fundraiser - Results are in!

[Lampoc]

I made a comment yesterday on animalone's (Ian) excellent "How water resistant are Vostok Amphibia watches?" thread ( http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...phibia-watches ) about sending an old Vostok case to be tested to destruction just for sh*ts and giggles. Ian got in contact and after a few back and forth messages we've teamed up to actually test a decent, fairly new Vostok Amphibia to it's doom. I'll be sending the watch to him tomorrow so hopefully he'll receive it before the weekend is over.

Here's the exciting part: for a paltry £2 donation to the fundraiser, you can have a guess at what pressure the seals/crystal/whatever fail and have a chance to win the actual possibly-most-pressure-tested-Vostok in (recent) history! The gauge on the pressure tester isn't very precise so everyone would have to accept Ian's judgement on the fail pressure. I'll also be supplying Ian with a spare crystal and seals which he'll replace after the test has finished, so the winner will receive a fully working and waterproof watch.

A quick photo of the beast to be won:



Post your guesses in bars (i.e. 22 bar) below and donate to the fundraiser here: http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/fund...15&isTeam=true Feel free to have as many £2 guesses as you like.

Assuming Ian receives the watch on time, the test will take place sometime Saturday afternoon. Cut-off for guesses is Saturday noon.

[animalone]

I know its wrong, but looking forward to trying to break this one
The pressure tester I will use can go up to 125 bar (about 1800psi or 1250m) if by some miracle the case can survive that I will have to stop there, so no guesses above that pressure thank you.

Just for comparison sake....
Deepest lake in the UK is Loch Morar 310m (31 bar)
SCUBA world record is 332m (33 bar)
Comex Hydra 8 experimental dives 534m (54 bar)
Comex Hydra 10 simulated dive 701m (70 bar)
Burj Khalifa hotel 828m (83bar)

UPDATE: pressures taken so far

11 luckyal
22 luckyal
30 Lukeott
32 verv
33 luckyal
36 Evanssprky
37 velorum
39 verv
40 Lukeott
42 verv
43 Mr Curta
45 Evanssprky
46 velorum
47 Mr Curta
50 sinnlover
51 Lukeott
53 Mr Curta
54 Seadog1408
58 velorum
59 Mr Curta
60 Lukeott
64 Draygo
67 Mr Curta
70 sinnlover
72 Lukeott
78 luckyal
80 robt
92 luckyal
100 sinnlover
120 robt
125 sinnlover

[verv]

I love stuff like this.
I'll chuck 6 in and go with

32 bar
39 bar
42 bar

[Velorum]

Great idea

£6 in

37
46
58

[Sinnlover]

Count me in
I will punt for:
50 bar
70 bar
100 bar
125 bar.

Going deep or don't go at all!

[animalone]

Count me in
I will punt for:
50 bar
70 bar
100 bar
125 bar.

Going deep or don't go at all!

I like your optomism

[Sinnlover]

I like your optomism

Russian engineering - best in the world...

[Mr Curta]

I've popped a Darwin in.

Using a highly scientific number selection method, I have come up with:

43 Bar
47 Bar
53 Bar
59 Bar
67 Bar

[robt]

125 bar

Dammit! I just found out about this and came here to say the machine will fail before the Amphibia!

Since that option is taken, I'll take:

120 bar
80 bar

Any less than that and Vostok have lost my respect entirely ;-)

BTW, please make sure the crown is screwed in properly before testing. I suspect this seal will be the weakest point, unless the acrylic collapses (which it probably will and may destroy the handset & possibly the movement in the process).

[animalone]

Dammit! I just found out about this and came here to say the machine will fail before the Amphibia!

Don't worry about the crown, it will be secured
There is a definite possibility that the watch could surprise us all and hold the pressure. I will be testing it without the movement so we can give the watch away after the test. If the watch case does survive all the way to 125 bar without failing I will test it again with the movement in the case so we can see if the hands stopped at any point as the crystal and case deform.
Personally I think the most likely outcome will be the crystal cracking. Remember 1250m is about 3times deeper than nuclear submarines would go.

[robt]

I will be testing it without the movement

Yes, now you mention it, that does make a lot more sense than what I was thinking there.

Personally I think the most likely outcome will be the crystal cracking.

I agree, but remember it's acrylic, so I expect the effect will be a lot like a water bottle taken on a plane. It's literally a plastic material, so I'd expect it to deform rather than crack, but if it folds in on itself (very likely) then it may split and then fail catastrophically like a burst balloon. That's even more likely with the movement out, as there will be more air inside the case to be compressed, and no dial & hands to limit the deformation. In a sense, that makes it an unfair test :)

The design is based on the acrylic maintaining a sort of dome shape so that the force of downwards pressure is redirected outwards at the base of the crystal. That will continue for as long as the crystal can maintain that shape, which it won't do above a certain pressure, but we don't know what that tipping point is. In fact, without the movement to stop it, the crystal could simply invert and pop off.

I only mentioned the crown because there's nothing special about it. It's the only real weak point in the design. AFAIK, it's the only place where the water will be exerting an expansive force (trying to get in under the gasket) rather than a compressive force, which tends to make the other seals stronger. How well it performs is entirely down to the condition of the gasket and how tightly the crown is screwed down.

[Lampoc]

You want me to send a knackered old movement and dial for the test as well as the watch Ian? I've got a few kicking around.

[Evanssprky]

Very pleased to donate and join this experiment. £4 in, here's my pop

36bar
45bar

Good luck everyone.

[Saint-Just]

You want me to send a knackered old movement and dial for the test as well as the watch Ian? I've got a few kicking around.

It's actually a good idea because it reduces the amount of air inside the case, and therefore the deformation during the test.

[seikopath]

Has no one mentioned olive oil yet?

[robt]

Has no one mentioned olive oil yet?

That would be unfair in the opposite direction. Has anyone successfully done that to a Vostok and had it actually keep running?

[seikopath]

That would be unfair in the opposite direction. Has anyone successfully done that to a Vostok and had it actually keep running?

i think you'd have problems with any mechanical due to the viscosity.

[robt]

i think you'd have problems with any mechanical due to the viscosity.

Indeed, I doubt it would run for long if at all. The escapement probably wouldn't generate enough torque to move through oil.

Taking the movement out and filling the case with oil certainly seems like cheating. Just a bit.

[animalone]

You want me to send a knackered old movement and dial for the test as well as the watch Ian? I've got a few kicking around.

Don't worry about it, the movement would need to be running so we can see when it stops from the case or crystal compressing too much and trapping the hands.

I think the best thing is to test without the movement first and that will likely give us an upper limit for the case integrity and would also allow us to see any water getting in through the crown easily (movement will block the view). Then I will then put the movement back in and retest back up towards that pressure so we can see if the hands are stopped by the crystal deformation (quite possible) at any point before that.

On a side note I have only once broken a watch by over pressuring it (it was accidentally and very embarrassing but at least the customer saw the funny side) It was a little fashion watch (3bar) and I had forgotten to reset the pressure tester from 10 bar, and it went with a bang!
The glass blew in with enough force that it shattered completely and looked more like salt, it actually bent the dial over the edges of the movement and forced the case back out the other side!

[robt]

On a side note I have only once broken a watch by over pressuring it (it was accidentally and very embarrassing but at least the customer saw the funny side) It was a little fashion watch (3bar) and I had forgotten to reset the pressure tester from 10 bar, and it went with a bang!
The glass blew in with enough force that it shattered completely and looked more like salt, it actually bent the dial over the edges of the movement and forced the case back out the other side!

Cool! Did you ramp it up from 1 to 10 bar pretty much instantly in that case or was that just from a gradual increase? Do you know what that glass was made of?

Goes to show though, if there is a catastropic faulire anywhere, the result is going to be not unlike a bomb going off.

[seadog1408]

54 bar.



mike

[animalone]

Cool! Did you ramp it up from 1 to 10 bar pretty much instantly in that case or was that just from a gradual increase? Do you know what that glass was made of?

Goes to show though, if there is a catastropic faulire anywhere, the result is going to be not unlike a bomb going off.

It was an air pressure tester so as soon as I closed the chamber it started to pressure up, the watch probably failed around 7-8bar, I was staggered at how destroyed it was for what in my mind was quite a low pressure. All the hands were flat to the dial and the steel case back was dented where the movement had hit it. I've always been doubley cautious of things under pressure since.
The glass was mineral don't know if it was treated in some way but it was almost powder after it went.

[robt]

It was an air pressure tester so as soon as I closed the chamber it started to pressure up, the watch probably failed around 7-8bar, I was staggered at how destroyed it was for what in my mind was quite a low pressure. All the hands were flat to the dial and the steel case back was dented where the movement had hit it. I've always been doubley cautious of things under pressure since.
The glass was mineral don't know if it was treated in some way but it was almost powder after it went.

Yeah, mineral crystal shattering like that makes sense, though it makes you think about divers with mineral/sapphire crystals. Fortunately they are usually so thick that they wouldn't fail like that under conditions anyone would be in, but if they did, it'd be like a bomb going off on your arm. Not a pleasant thought. Hopefully they are mostly engineered so the crystal fails at a pressure that can't destroy the case like happened with that one, so the "explosion" would be directed outwards. Even so, that shockwave could be deadly to anything in its path if the failure is near-instantaneous.

I'm with you on how hard it is to visualise pressure in terms of bars. We don't really have a good point of reference to understand how much force it is.

[seadog1408]

Explosion= pressure outwards

implosion = pressure inwards.

[robt]

Explosion= pressure outwards

implosion = pressure inwards.

Yes, but when something implodes, it sends a shockwave outwards, which for all intents and purposes is the same as an explosion (since a wave by definition has both positive and negative components). It's the shockwave that causes the damage to nearby things. In air, an explosion is usually the worse of the two because there's no upper bound on the amount of extra pressure pushed outwards, but there is a fairly low upper bound for an implosion at 1 bar. For example, a building collapsing will make a loud noise, but that's about it.

In water, there isn't a lot of difference between the two, as the amount of energy involved will depend on the water pressure and the failure time (specifically, how much fluid is displaced, how quickly). That energy will be transferred much more efficiently than it would through air as well, making it a lot more dangerous.

[seadog1408]

Ok...

[luckyal]

I'm in for £10.

Here's mine:

11
22
33
78
92

[Draygo]

I'm in for £10

Only one number to leave some for others ;-)

64

[animalone]

I'm in for £10

Only one number to leave some for others ;-)

64

You sure? Plenty of numbers still to go, I can randomly pick some for you that are not already taken after the cut off

[Draygo]

You sure? Plenty of numbers still to go, I can randomly pick some for you that are not already taken after the cut off

It was meant as encouragement :)

Thanks. But to be honest, I have too many Amphibias, but I love the idea of the contest and wanted to donate and join in the fun ...but with a low chance of winning!

[Mr Curta]

I have too many Amphibias!

How many is too many? Asking for a friend...

[Lampoc]

I have too many Amphibias

Ahh, but this will be the ULTIMATE Amphibia. Unless it fails early of course...

[animalone]

Looks like about £60 so far...
I've started a list of the picked pressures at the to of the thread.

[Lukeott]

£10 added
My scientifically calculated (not) numbers are 30,40,51,60,72 please. If any have been taken please just pick something random.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[animalone]

£10 added
My scientifically calculated (not) numbers are 30,40,51,60,72 please. If any have been taken please just pick something random.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

Your numbers are all good thank you

[animalone]

Last call for entries if anyone wants to join the fun?

[seffrican]

Yes, but when something implodes, it sends a shockwave outwards, which for all intents and purposes is the same as an explosion (since a wave by definition has both positive and negative components). It's the shockwave that causes the damage to nearby things. In air, an explosion is usually the worse of the two because there's no upper bound on the amount of extra pressure pushed outwards, but there is a fairly low upper bound for an implosion at 1 bar. For example, a building collapsing will make a loud noise, but that's about it.

In water, there isn't a lot of difference between the two, as the amount of energy involved will depend on the water pressure and the failure time (specifically, how much fluid is displaced, how quickly). That energy will be transferred much more efficiently than it would through air as well, making it a lot more dangerous.

The effect would be mitigated by the fact that the efficiency of energy delivery into the human body is lower than it would be in air, because the difference in the speed of sound between human and water is much smaller. Check the dispersion relations.

In the 1950s, divers were involved in testing the effects of underwater explosions on humans. They found they could comfortably withstand blasts at distances that would have instantly killed them in air. I seem to recall that Cousteau wrote about some of those experiments in one of his earlier books.

[Saint-Just]

Yes, although your eardrums are quite vulnerable since there is air on the internal side.

[seadog1408]

Yes, although your eardrums are quite vulnerable since there is air on the internal side.

Last job we did was off Sarawak, they were pilling a new jacket in 1/2 a mile away, bloody noisy for us working!!!

[number2]

Last job we did was off Sarawak, they were pilling a new jacket in 1/2 a mile away, bloody noisy for us working!!!

Nearest I can get to that (which admittedly isn't very near) was a dive to around 30 metres in Oban bay with the ferry coming in about 200 metres away, I ended up hugging the sea bed it sounded so close.

[animalone]

Thank you to everyone who took part, I can now reveal that the watch will be going to......robt. congratulations

Despite a brave show from the Russian the expected happened at about 82-83 Bar (approx. 820m)

A little video of the event for your entertainment, I slowed the video just before it failed but it still happened too quickly to see much.
Although the case started to visibly fail at around 70-75 bar I kept increasing the pressure and the actual "pop" occurred around 82-83 bar.
You can see the first thing to start giving was actually the case back buckling inwards (see the reflection at 9 change). Shortly followed by the crystal at 6 and 10.



Here we have the aftermath laid out. Despite the look the watch is repairable from here, if it had been tested with the movement in place the dial, hands and probably even the movement would have been wreaked.


Despite the crystal being annihilated the outer edge of the crystal rim was still in one piece in the case.


When compared to another back you can see how much the case back of the watch was deformed by the close on 1200psi pressure in the tank. I tried this on another watch and it is touching the winding rotor, not enough to stop the watch but not ideal. A bock of wood and a hammer will sort that right out.


Although it wasn't connected to anything the end of the stem was bent by the force of the collapse


I didn't re-test the watch with the movement inside, first because I wanted to give the winner a working watch and second because the case back was bent in quite a lot and if I knock it flat again the metal would probably be weaker if we tested it again. So I put my radio room in the tester and took it down to 500m and you will see it is still ticking away quite happily.
The big air bubble is in the top of the pressure chamber not the watch, its quite good because you can see the compression happening.

[Lampoc]

820m! That is quite incredible. Thanks for doing the test :D

[animalone]

820m! That is quite incredible. Thanks for doing the test :D

My pleasure, hope everyone found it interesting

[seadog1408]

Well done, very impressive resistance from the amphibia.


mike

[seikopath]

820m. Jesus H Frogmorton Christ. That isn't too shabby. I wonder what a deepsea would go to? Any volunteers?

[Evanssprky]

Wow, just wow.

[robt]

Thank you to everyone who took part, I can now reveal that the watch will be going to......robt. congratulations

Woot! Wasn't expecting to win. That was both hilarious and educational. Now we know to avoid diving much below about 2,000ft with our Amphibias... just to be on the safe side.

[animalone]

Woot! Wasn't expecting to win. That was both hilarious and educational. Now we know to avoid diving much below about 2,000ft with our Amphibias... just to be on the safe side.

1,500ft looks possible though

[robt]

1,500ft looks possible though

Well 800m is over 2,600 feet, so I think we've already got a reasonable safety margin if anyone wants to try beating the current record of 2,000 feet... Just don't go taking it too far ;-)

[Man of Kent]

I saw this too late to enter which is a shame but I wouldn't have predicted the result to be so high. Excellent experiment and it clearly demonstrates how the flat rubber seals on the caseback and crown make this an effective means of keeping water out. Must buy another Vostok!