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still a range of cars I don't get, when exactly do they start counting the environmental impact.
Probably the same for all electric cars
It looks as if Tesla is on the ball: producing starts Friday!
Musk on Twitter: https://twitter.com/elonmusk?ref_src...eerste-model-3
Menno
still a range of cars I don't get, when exactly do they start counting the environmental impact.
Probably the same for all electric cars
Worth a look:Originally Posted by adrianw
http://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/...ull-report.pdf
TL:DR:
Just sayin'From cradle to grave, BEVs are cleaner. On average,BEVs representative of those sold today produce lessthan half the global warming emissions of comparablegasoline-powered vehicles, even when the higher emissionsassociated with BEV manufacturing are taken intoconsideration. Based on modeling of the two most popularBEVs available today and the regions where they arecurrently being sold, excess manufacturing emissions areoffset within 6 to 16 months of average driving.
Mark C
Not for me, I'm afraid, until they can be charged quickly, conveniently and economically. and have a decent range
Should be a watershed moment for electric cars to get into the mind of the wider public. Hopefully the Model 3 will be priced reasonably given the $35k starting price - so somewhere around audi/bmw 3-series price?
Charging speed is quick at the superchargers - Model S can get 80% charged (>200miles in 40 minutes) and getting installed in more and more motorway services. Heard the head of Welcome Break owns a Tesla and is committed to a mass build out of the supercharging network. This I believe is key to mass adoption.
Same here. Offer a 600 mile range and I'm in, until then it'll be standard fuel types.
However it is very good to see that the technology is improving, and quickly.
Anything that has an option called "the ludicrous pack" can't be all bad!
Mind you 0-60 in 2.8secs is quite ludicrous.
What's important: Elon M is good for his word when it comes to keeping up with planning and build schemes.
Surely there will be flaws and faults. But Tesla is entering a new territory and we're all part of -imho- lifechanging develpments.
How many petrol/diesel cars can be fueled in 40 minutes?
Will need a large area put aside (more than a couple of points) in each service station if such vehicles become widespread.
My Subaru only had a range of ca. 200 miles on a full tank! OK I can fill it in less than 40 mins but I can't charge it at home overnight....
I agree this might be a game changer.
Drive 600 miles a day often?
Without a break (30 minutes for coffee and pee, an hour for lunch)?
When you think about it, do you really need 600 mile range?
As far and away the vast majority of charging will be at home, there won't be the requirement for as many charge points as you may think. With wireless induction charging however, each parking space in a car park could be a charging point. Take it one stage further and add induction charge loops into the roads and you can then charge as you drive. It may be done time off but it's coming!
I'd love to give one a go but don't think I'll be giving up the petrol car any time soon.
I see more and more Teslas around, and they aren't looking bad at all. For me recharging speed and range are two main sticking points atm.
Fas est ab hoste doceri
Very nice cars ... not sure about the auto pilot though
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I agree with your second point for everyday use but when on holiday, for example can easily do 600 miles per day. Usually do ~750 miles per day to Southern Spain - anyone going to South of France will also find such cars impractical with current infrastructure.
I've been commuting by EV for about 6 years now and only ever needed to charge away from home a handful of times. The trick will be to get charging points standardised and fitted in the most useful places - car parks, motorway services and roadside eateries. If you change the mindset from charging when you run out to charging when you're stopped for another reason it becomes a lot easier.
Good luck fing a supercharger here, well ANY working charger.
Where in Southern Spain are you? I'm between Almeria and Granada and we have a Tesla super charging station about 15 minutes away. Between 10-20 bays incorporated into a regular BP station. I'd be surprised if its the only one in the region, after all, how do they expect you to get to the charging station if you cant charge on the way, wherever you are coming from.
And dont forget that for many of the current models, charging at a station is free.
We have had our EV a year daily driver for the Mrs 10,000 miles for £250, only used an outside charger once. I would urge you all to give it a go and try one, before you say never.
Once a year we want to drive over 500 miles we will hire a car and it will be a Tesla. :-) drive for 250 miles stop and have a coffee and some lunch drive 250 miles, perfect
Agreed that 40 mins is a very long time to wait to charge. But as others (apparent EV users) have posted, after a 250 mile drive (>3hrs if staying at speed limits and no traffic) probably a break is due in any case. Tesla are planning an even faster charger which could bring charging down to 20 mins or less, and with the inevitable range increase (already went from 280->400miles in under 3 years) should really make it a viable option if not already for many.
I often drive 300-400 in a day, add to that extra load which all uses battery power in an electric car (equipment, passengers, wipers, air con, headlights etc etc). I'll be driving more than 600 a day for a couple of days at the end of this month.
My current car will do it on one tank and then more miles too. I don't have to think about it. I press the button and then go, when fuel gets low I top it up without a thought as to whether I'll need to budget my journey around the car's requirements.
A car should be a device to aid travel, not become a hindrance to it. As I said, when an electric car offers a 600 mile range I'll buy one, until then it just wouldn't be practical for me. :0)
Last edited by Filterlab; 3rd July 2017 at 21:00.
For me, Tesla have almost reached the point where this becomes an attractive, viable option.
It could be a painless lease proposition - how much do you spend on fuel each month? Then consider that this outgoing could be diverted to cover the lease payments, and you could charge the car overnight for not much, and bingo! Apply a little man-maths, and it all makes sense for anybody who uses a car for "social, domestic and pleasure" and usually sleeps in their own bed.
Where do I sign?
A break might well be due but if a petrol car can refuel in 5 minutes will need 8 times the number of chargers as there are pumps.
^ that was debunked already with the 'I can't fill up with fuel at home' comment.
If 40% of cars start each day full then how many chargers are needed?
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
What proportion of people have off street parking to allow for charging at home? That's the biggest issue with the adoption of electric cars in crowded cities in London when they would otherwise make perfect sense.
Surely the quoted range allows for all of the load.
Possibly, but it's only 215 currently.
Don't get me wrong, I can't wait to buy an electric car. The torque curve and silence make it very driver friendly, the lack of fuel costs too make it a great purchase. I love technology, the tech has come on a long way recently. When it's realistic for me to buy one I will. Tesla are leading the field as well, and as their prices are getting more realistic chances are I'd buy a Tesla.
Not just yet though. :0)
Last edited by Filterlab; 3rd July 2017 at 21:31.
I agree!
Wow, one station 15 minutes away!
Also I would want the car to charge where I will spend some time, not at a petrol station,
Here in Malaga there are not even sufficient working normal stations. When you get to a parking garage with stations the ones not occupied are thus because of malfunction. Hybrid is the only real option even in Malaga capital.
A car a personal means of travel, long term cars as they are not the Answer for the good of us all. Electric is the future maybe or something else. Would be interesting going back to when the first cars arrived and people had to stop using horses. I even remember 25 plus years ago my dad saying he would never have a diesel car. Funny how things move on, most of the car makers are now spending most of their R&D on other things than petrol and diesel cars. We need to reduce our emissions, but will take time.
It's a mindset thing, I want to drive an electric car.
My parents live 300 miles away and if I needed to drive there and back in a day I could.
All it took was about five minutes deciding where the best places to stop for a coffee break were and stopping at different places to those I normally would.
As I always stop at least once on the journey (twice if the wife's with me), it wouldn't really be any less convenient.
As an aside, most of the electrical ancillaries of an electric car are run from an auxiliary battery and not the main battery (aircon excepted).
In Tuscany (eg in Lucca) we spotted public parkings with a roof-like construction, more like a long garden shed with cars parked under it. On the roof solar panels and at the end of every 'shed' chargers for EVs. All paid for by the EU... Other example: Florence is only accessible for EVs. I think that solar power and the south of Spain go hand-in-hand!
Tesla is already very big here in Holland. Has to do with the weird tax system for fuel/diesel and electric cars. For a Tesla (full electric, the tax rate is 4%, for most fuel cars 25%...). We're not that big so 600miles+ trips on a daily basis is very rare overhere. I think that the range will be extended / doubled within 3 -5 years.
The biggest problem these companies are facing are qualified mechanics! EVs are totally different from fuel cars. And schools are not ready yet for the demand.
Menno
Solar roads.
http://www.solarroadways.com
Dynamic induction.
https://chargedevs.com/features/olev...ile-in-motion/
Once the second is rolled out, EVs won't need large batteries and will have unlimited range. It'll be a long time coming but it will happen one day!
My RX8 was like that, but it was costing me nothing but fuel for the last 5 years, a bit different to the cost of buying a Tesla...
Just a thought - It's not ALL day to day running costs.
I've got a Golf now - Will do 38 MPG (maybe a little more if I really babied it) on a run - More like 400 miles and I can refill it nearly anywhere in under 5 minutes.
I rather like the idea of Teslas (although I'm not sold on the 3 yet - Part of the appeal is the luxury of the S and I don't think that will transpose to the cheaper model), but they're still some way off making financial sense to me.
M.
You're right, it's not all day to day running costs but apart from the currently substantial depreciation (Teslas excepted), all other running costs are far less too.
Depreciation is currently steep although no one ever pays anywhere near list price for an EV (again, Teslas excepted) but once they become more accepted and confidence in EVs as a product increases then depreciation will fall to more conventional levels.
I do wonder how many people actually use a full tank of fuel on one journey on a regular basis?
checkout https://www.plugshare.com/ doesnt look too bad in spain on paper but as you say - you still have to find it, assume its open, not too busy and working ok, something to do etc...
tesla can use any fast charger - (or mains) just won't be as quick as on a super charger ... plenty of those about
have a hybrid now and no doubt will be trying to move to an all electric car next time round....
Range anxiety shouldn't be an issue, you'd have breakdown cover anyway?
Last edited by Xantiagib; 4th July 2017 at 13:44.
what happens when everyone gets home from work and plugs in? how will they manage the huge increase in demand?
Personally, I set the timer on mine so that it charges up overnight on the economy 7 cheap rate.
Not everyone will want to charge at the same time or even on the same day; there will be a spread. Granted, there will be times of increased demand but probably no more than current variations. In any case, whatever problems may or may not arise, solutions will be found.
Personally, I just can't get excited about electric vehicles. I could never get excited about diesels either.
I'm averaging 15.4mpg from the 5 litre V10 in my BMW M6. I don't have a problem with the fuel bills, and from an environmental perspective, I dislike flying so haven't taken any flights for around 10 years or so now which probably well offsets my modest daily mileage commuting to work.
What I do really enjoy is the sensation I can get from flooring the accelerator on an open road: there's the induction roar, the way the exhaust note hardens as the revs climb, the feel you get from a big multiple cylinder petrol engine, the occasional pop and backfire on the over-run and the smell of warm oil and hot metal when parked up after a long run.
I'm just not sure an electric motor could ever get me as excited as I am thinking about a quad cam V10 with variable valve timing. Would I ever think about a brush or an armature in the same way? I suspect not, hence why the debate about the pros of electric cars has focused on such prosaic matters as charging stations (let's be honest, they're plugs) or range.
As a true petrolhead and up to my elbows in engines that prefer leaded fuel, I agree with you. But the future is different. The Tesla in Ludicrous mode leaves every V6/8/10/12 far far behind. Induction roar or not. The insane sensation of speed and acceleration overwhelms all. There are tons of vid on YT about a Tesla vs hypercars.What I do really enjoy is the sensation I can get from flooring the accelerator on an open road: there's the induction roar, the way the exhaust note hardens as the revs climb, the feel you get from a big multiple cylinder petrol engine, the occasional pop and backfire on the over-run and the smell of warm oil and hot metal when parked up after a long run.
Menno
I understand Menno, but as I said, it's the way petrol engines engage the senses that keeps me hooked. A silent, but admittedly very fast, electric car just wouldn't cut it.
EVs are going to become more common but looking at TESLA's recent financials, I wouldn't bet on the company existing in 5 years.
Love my i3, will probably get a Tesla in the next couple of years and will never go back. It suits me fine with charging at home and no range anxiety. For some people EV's should be a no brainer but they tend to say "but twice a year I drive 500 miles". So what, hire a car until technology catches up and enjoy the benefits the other 50 weeks a year. They are not, and never will be for everyone though and the debate will continue for now.
I have driven a Tesla P100D and had ludicrous mode demonstrated. Made my mate's 911 Turbo seem positively pedestrian. Build quality inside isn't quite up with the Germans though
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The acceleration in an EV is just completely different
I understand what you're saying, but being taken to 60 in 4.7 seconds it took the Model X I was in soon disproved that. It seemed absolutely effortless.
Personally I've done the maths and even assuming electricity is free, when you add in the depreciation it just doesn't add up. To me it's loosing over 2/3rd of it's value in 2 years which is the killer (ISTR Car magazine worked out the depreciation as something like three quid a mile). Okay so I'd save fifteen hundred a year in fuel costs (assuming electricity is free) but buying a mid teens priced petrol hatchback is far more cost effective than an EV vehicle costing twice as much and then loosing all that money on depreciation. Plus the traditional hatchback can be used for the 20 miles to work and the several hundred miles visiting relations. The problem with PEV vehicles is the same with any technology product i.e. there's always a better product coming out in 6 months time (better batteries, faster charge, etc.) and as such, as with any technology product be it a phone, TV, tablet, the money lost on that first drive home from the shop is the killer.
Okay I admit I'm not a PEV fan. I just don't understand the logistics of how the experts plan to deal with the problem of how to get something like a GJ of energy into a car in less than 5 mins; DERV is c. 45GJ/tonne so assuming a 10+ gallon fill up then that's about 2GJ of energy but then assuming that the EV is twice as efficient in the conversion of energy to motion lets' say 1GJ in an EV vehicle would give similar range as the diesel engined hatchback - say 500+ miles. Add to that the problems about 'filling' stations and how every home is going to need a multi hundred amp mains supply and where all this clean electricity is going to come from, and so on and so on. However saying all that if I could find a cheaper way of doing my 16K commute miles a year I'd take it. The problem is PEV doesn't offer me that cheaper option.
In the answer to the above, there will be a tipping point when they don't depreciate as much because there will be mor hybrids than regular cars.
The next wave of battery innovation will see to a lot of the charging and distance issues. Some of the stuff MIT is working on right now could see a range of c 2k miles on a single charge, with a smaller battery. There's also a UK company that is starting to produce 3-d printed batteries that coudl see manufacturing costs slashed. The next 5 years are going to fascinating as to what comes to market (as well as who).
How can you do 2K miles on a single charge? I mean the only way is for a phenomenal energy density in which case the problem is going to be how on earth do you get that amount of energy into the battery in the first place? If you need one GJ to do 500miles then we're talking perhaps 4GJ for 2K miles... that's some serious charging!
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