Very sad news. Thoughts go out to the families of those who have lost their lives.
Very sad news. Thoughts go out to the families of those who have lost their lives.
Just watched some videos on the BBC website, my God, what a catastrophe.
Cannot get my thought away from the children who lost their lives....
Awful news to wake up to this morning. Reports that a family where told to stay put in there flat by emergency services, then 40 minutes later only to have enough courage to battle through the smoke and fire and escape the ongoing blaze. I just pray for the families, You can't even imagine the scenes inside.
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Sad news. Awful images.
I wish them all the better.
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Horrific ! At first I thought it might have been a terrorist attack or bomb factory gone wrong. I used to live in Ladbroke Grove and know exactly where it is.
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Very sad news . My thoughts are with the families.
Terrible news, thoughts and prayers with all involved.
Fas est ab hoste doceri
Shocking stuff, made all the more shocking because these kinds of calamities are thankfully pretty rare these days.
So sad to hear lives have been lost.
So clever my foot fell off.
That is terrible, 120 flats and only 50 or so in hospital, i hope that means most got out rather than lots still inside.
Someone's going to prison over this one for sure
"In November 2016, a residents organisation, Grenfell Action Group, published an online article attacking KCTMO as an "evil, unprincipled, mini-mafia" and accusing the Borough Council of ignoring health and safety laws. The Group suggested that "only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of [KCTMO]". The group had also published articles criticising fire safety and maintenance practices at Grenfell Tower."
"In a July 2014 newsletter, KCTMO wrote:
Emergency fire arrangements
Our longstanding 'stay put' policy stays in force until you are told otherwise. This means that (unless there is a fire in your flat or in the hallway outside your flat) you should stay inside your flat. This is because Grenfell was designed according to rigorous fire safety standards. Also, the new front doors for each flat can withstand a fire for up to 30 minutes, which gives plenty of time for the fire brigade to arrive."
https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpres...ing-with-fire/
Oh my God, just read the article.Originally Posted by Brighty
If any of this proves true, there will be a number of people going to prison.
Very sad. Regret turning the news on in a morning now..
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I heard that the fire started on the 2nd floor and the fire crew could only spray up to the 17th floor.
Firefighters apparently made it up to the 12th floor after it started on the 4th - that's beyond brave.
CHAIR NAMED IN NEW YEAR'S HONOURS LIST
KCTMO Chair Fay Edwards has received the British Empire Medal (BEM) in the new year's honours list for her services to the community in Kensington and Chelsea.
She says: "I'm quite amazed and honoured to receive this award. It's been an absolute pleasure to serve on the Board of the TMO, which I have chaired since 2012, and I have enjoyed every minute of it. The TMO plays a very important part in the life of the whole community and I'm proud to represent it, doing everything I can in the interest of our residents."
Chief Executive Robert Black added: "I'm delighted that Fay has received this much deserved honour. Under her leadership the Board has become more strategic and representative of the community, gaining the respect of both residents and the local council. As a result there has been increase in overall resident satisfaction with the company; increased attendance at the AGM; and more residents voting for TMO's continued management of the council's homes. We couldn't be more pleased for her!"
December 31, 2015
Compare:
"We believe that the KCTMO have ensured their ongoing survival by the use of proxy votes at their Annual General Meeting that see them returned with a mandate of 98% in favour of the continuation of their inept and highly dangerous management of our homes."
(quoted from: https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpres...ing-with-fire/)
Very sad and just down the road from me.
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From Chris Sullivan: "As my Portobello Radio colleague Piers Thompson who lives a stones throw away will attest, the authorities deliberately ignored all requests to attend to the building and its hazards because the singularly right wing, rapacious Tory Kensington and Chelsea Council have been pushing plans to bulldoze the who area and build luxury flats (and probably nick a few backhanders to boot) for the last three years. Piers has been fighting this initiative ever since and created the Save the Silchester Estate campaign to do so.He was facing a compulsory purchase order as he lives in the shadow of Grenfell Tower. But I can see some Tory councilor rubbing his hands with glee a few weeks ago as they ignore the pleas to improve the block because they knew that ,after a time, the tower block would be declared unsafe and closed, the residents rehoused in Reading and this incredibly valuable chunk of prime W11 real estate then ready to sell off to the highest bidder. But things haven't worked out as they thought and now whoever is responsible needs to be gaoled and the council replaced. This stinks of corruption at the highest
No idea how this correlates with the refurbishment that was carried out last year. It beggars belief that a refurb would not include water sprinklers
It's beyond tragic and one of my personal deep rooted fears is being stuck in a building like that under similar circumstances.
i always try and stay on the ground floor of any hotel I have to use when away with work, which I realise is probably pretty daft really as they all appear to have room alarms/fire doors etc..
But I sleep better.
The refurb will be put under the microscope.
I wouldn't mind betting that the contract for the work was a "race to the bottom" in terms of price and it will have been awarded to the lowest bidder.
I wouldn't be surprised to further learn that to deliver some margin, the contractor sought to cut some corners on materials/standards, (hoping of course it would go forever un-noticed).
I'm afraid I've been around bids/deals, (although not in property refurb), where this type of thing has been countenanced after "buying" the business by bidding the win price right down.
It's a systemic issue around buying at the lowest price, rather than a more pragmatic approach where it is recognised that all parties involved have to derive some benefit to deliver a mutually satisfactory outcome.
I hope I'm wrong, but I'm getting a cynical b@stard as I get older and deal with these types of things with regularity.
Rich
A stay put policy is pretty much standard practice in social housing and it makes sense. You don't want people charging down stairwells hindering fire crews. Passive measures are in place to prevent the spread of fire but as has been mentioned it appears these have failed here. Tragic.
That makes no sense to me. The classification of "social housing" cannot prescribe a "stay put" philosophy.
It is the physical attributes of each building, together with its passive, and active fire protection systems, and escape routes which will.
There should have been a safety case for each building - to identify the risks and also the mitigating factors.
My mums on the 15th floor of a tower block by the river in Chelsea and could watch the fire in the distance as it happened.
I must be a 'cynical bastard' as well because everything you have said has the ring of truth and accuracy about it!
that didn't start last week, it was last century.The politicians have been stoking up a sense of division, cynicism and conflict for some time now
The cladding company has gone into administration, with all it's assets being sold off, presumably on the cheap, to a company with a similar name, run by the same director. Stinks
Health & safety should still be able to prosecute the directors personally I'd have thought? If they are at fault that is.
Terrible all round, and the way the fire so rapidly got out of control is chilling. First thing I thought of was one of those faulty driers that are known to catch fire, wasn't there another fire caused by one in a London block a couple of years ago?
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Things like this make me think we are living in a 3rd world country sometimes
Very hard to comprehend how this happens in the 21st century
Tim
Once the facts come to light I`m sure it'll all make more sense. I`ll reserve judgement until that point. Have to admit I`m shocked at what's happened, if it had happened in a 3rd world country I`d be more inclined to condemn poor standards, but in Britain I find it hard to jump to such a conclusion and I`m sure most right-minded rational thinkers will agree. Given the number of high-rise building we have in Britain there's got to be a concern that the fire prevention/control methodology that seems correct and credible has a serious flaw in the logic. 35 years in the Chemical Industry taught me that even the most rigorous Risk/Hazard assessments can end up being flawed.
It's a tragedy, no other way to describe it, but in the absence of facts the media are doing what they do best and 'feeding' on the story. Had a quick scan at the newspaper headlines today and the stance/reporting style was depressingly predictable, Journalists sensationalising a tragedy to fill column inches. Objectivity is a concept they simply don`t recognise!
One point that does trouble me: is it safe to install mains gas to multi-story buildings? I think not, but I`m sure there are very persuasive arguments in favour and sadly they'll be allowed to override the fundamental hazard it brings. Maybe it wasn`t a factor in this case, maybe it was.....we'll all find out eventually.
Paul
Last edited by walkerwek1958; 15th June 2017 at 15:29.
Not to make light of a tragedy but how come a burnt out skeleton of a building is still standing but on 11/9/2001.......well, we all know what happened.
No impact, and no inventory of kerosene in the Kensington block.
No - see........ this is a virtual pub. It is not a court of enquiry.
Are you seriously saying that you cannot imagine this turn of conversation in a real pub?
Unfortunately, I can.
I have some experience in fire protection and as someone else mentioned here there is the crucial issue of compartmentation. This is when the building is designed as a series of fire tight boxes or compartments. The idea being that should a fire break out, it should confined to that compartment. An overarching fire strategy takes into account active and passive fire protection, amongst other things. Active being things like sprinklers and dampers and passive meaning things like intumescent firestop devices. These exist to seal up combustible penetrations as they burn (usually within a matter of 3 minutes or so) which seals the flow of air and suffocates the fire, preventing it spreading. The same fact is true when considering a facade or curtain wall system otherwise the structure behaves like a chimney which accelerates the spread of fire and smoke upwards whilst burning debris falls down the void between the facade and the structure to ignite floors below.
I come across passive fire protection (or the lack thereof) on an almost daily basis. The neglect and incompetence in the construction industry in this country surrounding this topic is chronic and widespread. I have lost count of the number of times I have seen a complete lack of adequate passive fire protection in live, high-profile buildings and when the topic is raised the building owners or developers brush it under the carpet. Something like this was always going to happen, it was just a matter of time.
Take your own advice then
I imagine mains gas is safer than other forms of gas supply.
Properly designed, installed and maintained gas installations have rarely caused explosions or fire in multi-occupancy buildings.
How about reserving judgment instead of wildly speculating (wrongly I predict).
Lilly Allen (of all people) on C4 news last night was the first person I have heard say a number (150) that seemed like it might be a realistic estimate of the eventual death toll. Jon Snow changed the topic very quickly, and pretty much stopped the interview.
Is there an organised effort to not put out a number until the news has died down?
It really is an absolute disaster of epic proportions and the death toll being played down really is starting to smell of political play.
One Tory councillor has already started to make noises about actually blaming residents because they didn't want sprinkler systems installed as it would "inconvenience them".
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...lames-10631544
(caveat, i'm not often into tabloid sources - but this guy is on record).
Sometimes people who are in a position of power and responsibility need to enforce safety features because its there for a good reason. Shocking really.
Amazing really that considering everyone is worried about terrorist attacks these days, we seem to kill more of our own people through negligence than a terrorist could hope to achieve.
For Pete's sake - what the heck is up with all this influx of conspiracy theories? Utter rubbish. The authorities simply don't speculate, and neither should the media. Once the authorities release information, it gets reported. That a lot of the missing will have perished is a very likely outcome (and most people will know that) - but at this point it is not a fact. It takes a lot of time to recover the remains, and even longer to identify them.
No need for the sarcasm.
My point regarding mains gas relates to the main fracturing as a fire progresses, thus fuelling the fire and causing catastrophic escalation. As I`ve said before, I don`t claim to be an expert, but the very presence of mains gas in a high-rise building has to constitute a hazard in my opinion. The hazard is completely eliminated if there's no gas supply, that's irrefutable, and maybe that should be the case.
Whether mains gas is a significant factor in the escalation of the fire is still to be determined, but I really don`t see it as 'wild speculation'.
Paul
I find it incredible that no sprinklers are required for a building like this. If I want to convert the loft of my house (which would make it 4 stories) I need fire doors throughout, fire alarms on each floor and either a sprinkler system or a second staircase according to the building regs. All sensible requirements, and surely should equally apply to any structure of 4 or more floors.
No comparison between a building hit by a commercial aircraft and a fire starting in a flat. None whatsoever.
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The WTC was built from steel.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
This was the first and most sensible post in this thread.
Ian
I've been made aware of a blog/write up from one of the firefighters.
Thought I'd share this with you, with respect ;
GRENFELL TOWER ACCOUNT:
This is a must read...
As always we were woken with a start, the lights came on and the automated tannoy voice started shouting our call signs. It never fails to set your heat racing. Getting dressed I looked at the clock, I'd only lay down less than a hour ago. Time to see what we've got this time..
Down the pole to the trucks and it's here I'm handed the call slip make pumps 25... what! No..
That's a big incident.
Wait.... I don't know where this is.. it's not on our ground.
We have to look it up and then we're out the doors.
We arrived about 0120hrs but due to the way cars are parked in the streets and the fire engines that are arriving with us we couldn't get closer than 4-5 streets away from the building. Other trucks were closer they would be setting up water ready for us.
We could see this was a bad one immediately. The sky was glowing. Leaving our truck we started quickly towards it. Picking up pace we are carrying our BA sets on our back, while making our way we are trying to read the conditions in front of us, trying to take in as much information as we could. How big is the tower, where is the fire, where is the fire going next, how's it behaving, how many flats are internally affected, how many people are in there?
We mustered outside the entrance. Parts of the building we already starting to fall down on to the surrounding area.
As we entered the building the fire on the outside was raging from the top to the bottom.
Walking up to the bridgehead on the 3rd floor we were told to look at a floor plan that had been hastily drawn on a wall.
We stood looking at it waiting at entry control to be given instructions my BA partner and I (a new mother herself) stood waiting with other firefighters waiting to see what information there was available. Then we received our brief... 23rd floor people stuck in their flat go!
23rd floor? I repeat back.. giving the flat number I received to the Watch manager.
She confirms. I turned at told my BA as the reality of how high we are going to try and go on a single cylinder of air.
Weighed down carrying 30kg+ of equipment not including our firekit and breathing apparatus (BA) we passed through entry control handing in our tallies and confirming our brief.
We made our way up a crowed stairwell struggling to make progress, at times unable to pass because of the amount of people on the stairs. The stairwells were full of other BA crews bringing people down all in various states and conditions.
The smoke grew thicker with each floor we went up. No proper floor numbers on the stairwells after about the 5th floor made it hard to know where you were. Someone before us had tried to write them on the wall with chinagraph pencil but this didn't last long. The dirty smoke was covering the walls with a film of blackness
Around the 9th floor we lost all visibility and the heat was rising. Still we continued up and up through the blackness. We reached what we believed to be the 19/20th floor but there was no way to tell. It was here where we found a couple trying to find their way out, panicking, choking, blinded by the thick toxic air.
A quick gauge check showed us that the amount of floors we'd climbed had taken its toll, we were getting low on air. There's no way we could make it to the 23rd and back to the bridgehead.
The couple were shouting and screaming at us through the coughing, trying to tell us there were 5 more people on the floor above!
Now I had horrible decisions to make and a very short amount of time to make them.
In what I think would of been less than a minute these are all the things I had going through my head.
I will list a few of them for you.
All of which I needed to consider before making my decision:........
•Now that we've stopped and lost our rhythm on the stairs would we have enough air to leave this couple and try to reach the next floor?
•Was the information we are getting from these people was correct. After all they are frantically panicking as they choke and suffer from the heat.
•If we let them carry on down the stairs alone would they or could they find their own way out?
•If we went up another floor would we actually find the 5?
•If we found them what state would they be in? Could the two of us get that many out especially one or more are unconscious?
•How would we decided who to take?
•Do we have enough air to make it back down to safety ourselves from where we are?
•Should I be considering asking my BA partner a "new mother" to risk even more than she already has...?
•Can I accept/live with the thought that saving two lives is better than taking the risk to go up and potentially saving no one?
Ahh!! Come on think...!
Am I doing enough?
Can I give more?
Am I forgetting any of my training....?
Stop....
Breath.....
Think.....
•Why haven't we seen another crew for so long?
•Will another crew find them?
•Are we really where we think we are?
•The radios are playing up... have we missed a important message.
•Have all crews been pulled out?
•Is the structure still safe?
Come on make a decision... and make it quick these people are choking.......
Ok Ok Ok!
Dam!
Come on!! Think!!
Right... ok
Decision made!
I do a double check... ask my partner...
Is it the right decision..?
Ahhh
I'm doubting myself,
Ahhh! there's no time for this!
Come on get on with it...
Right! Make the call!
I try to radio down to entry control.
"Alpha Control Priority!"......
No response....
"Alpha Control Priority!"
Still No response....
Where are they... what's going on?!?
"Alpha Control Priority!"
.....................
.....................
Did they answer... it's hard to tell.. the signal is all broken I think I can just about hear something.
"Alpha Control Priority!"
Alpha control responds...
"Go a head with priority over"
Are they talking to me I can't hear my call sign...
Pass the message
Alpha control.. Two casualties found approx 20th floor, crew now escorting them down, request another BA team be committed to reach flat on 23rd floor. Further traffic....
5 casualties are reported apparently trying to make their way out on the floor above. Over
Alpha control "Message received"
Were they talking to me it broke up again...
Ok we really need to get out.
Let's go!
Grab my arm.
Taking a casualty each we set off. Within two floors both of us had been pushed down one of the flight of the stairs by our casualties. They are screaming at us that they couldn't breath.
We try to reassure them.
Stay with me!!
We are going to get you out!!.
Please stay with me!
Down and down we go... I hear a shout from behind me from my partner, the female casualty has become unconscious. My partner is now having to drag her down alone. I can't help at this time.
Two floors later we find another crew making their way out. One of them is carrying a little girl. I hand off my casualty to the firefighter who has a free set of hands, please take him out I shout, we'll be right behind you.
I turn to go but with that he hands me something I'd not seen initially.
Wait!
What!
Im handed a firefighters helmet!
This can't be good!!
Why does he have this?
Where is the firefighter it belongs too!
As I turn round and go back up one turn of the stairs I see him.
He's missing his helmet but he's with my BA partner.
He's got no helmet and no breathing apparatus.
Are you ok? Where's your BA set!?
He's given it to a casualty.. he's coughing as he tells us, he's delirious from the heat and smoke.
Still he tries to help carry the casualty! Helping others is still his first thought.
I shout at him.. Get down those stairs, get down to the bridgehead!
I take the casualties arms my BA partner has her legs.
We start down again.. round and round we go, hear the noise of crews working hard around us. There are still crews going up the stairs past us.
My BA pre alarm starts going this off.... this means one thing.. my air is running low.. similar noises are all around me.
Turning a corner we see a white helmet, it's a watch manager in the stairwell we've reach the bridgehead.
It's moved again. It's now up on the 5th floor.
My partner takes the firefighter with no BA in to the 5th floor lobby to administer Oxygen.
The watch manager takes the casualties legs from her.
Walking backwards down another 5 floors and finally I'm on the ground floor but I can't stop yet. I hand the casualty over. Then I'm off back up those stairs to the 5th floor.
Reaching entry control, now finally I can shut my set down and I take my mask off. Hoping for a deep breath of clean air...
ah nope!!
It's not clean air in here, I suck in lung full of light ish smoke. It makes me cough and retch.
Still It's clean enough to breath I guess. It's better than the air higher up.
With my tally collected I find my BA partner. She's with the firefighter we found and she's administering him Oxygen. We're off. We take him down and out with us.
As we get outside we are desperate for a drink of water, collapsing on the grass by the leisure centre. Someone see us and throws us some water I drink it straight down, its gone so fast it barely touches the thirst I have.
As I look up colleagues are all around us, tunics off their t-shirts soaked through with sweat, no one really able to talk.
All of us sat there looking at the building we've just come out of. It's worse now! The fire is everywhere and fierce!
It's hard to comprehend we were just in there.
We see a man in a high window trapped in his flat, we can hear the radio traffic. They know he's there but no one can get to him... but crews are working hard trying to help him.
He's there for a long time disappearing then coming back.
Slowly we catch our breath, we service our BA sets new oxygen cylinders on them we are ready to go again.
Recovering I go to find more water. At a cordon a woman pleads with me... crying and pushing her phone at me she says she has her friend on line.
Her and her baby are trapped on the 11th floor.
It throws me... I struggle to reply.. I look across at a police officer I point at him and tell her he will take her to the people who will take her friends information and pass it on to the crews inside.
Stay on the phone with her I say!
Tell her not to give up!
We are still coming.
We are still getting to people I promise.
No time to stop, don't get distracted. I've got to get a drink and get back to it.
Time passes quickly, some people are given jobs while others have to wait to be tasked with going back inside.
Some time later I couldn't say how long we are all grouped together waiting for news. A senior officer is telling us he knows we've already broken all the policy's we have. He knows the risks we've taken but thats not enough we are going to have to take more! There are still a lot more people who need us.
He says he's going ask us to do things that would normally be unimaginable. To put our lives at risk even more than we already have.
Everyone is looking round at each other listening to this officer try to motivate us into action again. He didn't need to though
we are ready for it! This is what we train for.
Those colleagues who a little while ago were collapsed and broken from on the grass from their first entry are back up, ready, stood in full kit waiting for their orders to go in again.
Now lots of things happened during the time I was outside. Some people were rescued alive, some unfortunately weren't. People jumped, a mother threw a baby from a floor high up, caught by a complete stranger arms just so she could get it away from the fire.
All this time hour after hour my colleagues were pushing themselves above and beyond what you'd think was humanly possible.
As the light broke and time passed we knew it had gone to make pumps 40, and that 20 relief trucks were ordered. So as the trucks with fresh crews arrived those of us that were there early on were starting to be swapped over. We were told to find our crews and go to the debrief but no one was wanting to leave each and every one willing to give more, but eventually we all had to leave the scene.
So 19 hours after starting our night shift the members of Red Watch made it back to the Fire Station.
Time to try and rest.. in 4 hours time we will be on duty again.
We hand over the appliance to the Blue Watch. Tell them what equipment we known to be missing.
I swapped out my dirty fire gear so I'm ready for 8pm, I might as well do it while I'm still covered in sweat and dirt.
I shower, but the smell of smoke won't go away. I wash three times and give up.
I'm beyond tired but I cant sleep.. there's to much going on in my head.
I think I need a drink!
I go out to the local pub with colleagues. I order a shandy, I'm back on duty soon.
As we sat with our drinks we don't really talk. Sitting in almost complete silence, each lost in thought trying to begin to process everything that's happened. Yet we are aware of the people all around us laughing and joking with friends, enjoying their drinks in the sun. Oblivious to what we've seen, unaware of what we've been doing all night.
I've no appetite but I know I need to eat. We go to and get some food but it's hard to concentrate.
We go back to the fire station, there's no time to get home. I find a bed in the dorm room and eventually manage 45 min sleep before I wake up. Wash my face, get dressed and I'm ready to report for roll call, ready to do it all again.
-----------
Now... this is only a small part of the things we saw and did on that night. Other stories will obviously come out but some won't. Some will be kept by firefighters and the other emergency services hidden away deep down in their thoughts, never to pass in to words, never to be told to a living soul but always there, those emotional scars will forever be there.
Respect.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
For as far back as I can remember I have always respected the fire service and the bravery the members present in looking after the people that need them. Heroes.
Sure, I respect the fire service, but it is actually a fairly safe profession these days if you look at the stats.
As he admits - he is on call, but asleep - so in quiet shifts, goes home for basically a rest day. But if there are call-outs - it becomes like a regular nigthshift, but you can go to your bed in between any shouts.
You know nothing, seriously.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Have you been a Firefighter, Policeman or a Paramedic? You are not paid for what you do, but for what you might have to do, You are talking out of your ARSE!
It was a terrible tragedy for the people involved but I feel that they are being used by the left wing activists to stir up trouble regardless of the truth. The march featured the usual masked agitators and a high percentage of the placards had nothing to do with the fire.
If this is the case it's a cynical move.
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