Reply With QuoteI wouldn't be having that,and I suppose you'll be teaching them as well
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My office is in the process of finding me a new underling which is all fair and good. I've been involved in the interview process and selection which has been absolutely fine with me. The problem has arisen after they made one of the prospective employees an offer which equals my salary albeit they will be working a four day week so it is pro rata. I've recently negotiated myself a pleasant rise to achieve my current salary after being with the company a while and implementing successful changes to the working procedures so they are happy enough with me. Marketplace forces have made it difficult for us to find replacements and my last underling was brought in from a completely unrelated background and taught from scratch.
I guess I am aggrieved by the fact that my new (let's be more civil) assistant will have less experience but earn the same due to the marketplace. My issue is how do I approach my Director and say that although happy with my increase they have successfully managed to make it all feel worthless by paying the new member of staff this wage? I feel justified to ask for another increase but is it going to be batted away or taken seriously.
They could replace me but they'd be paying eve more if they could find a candidate.
I wouldn't be having that,and I suppose you'll be teaching them as well
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I think it's one of those things dictated by the market at the time. My wife, in her previous job, earned a few thousand more than her boss who was there three years longer than her.
Her boss was unaware, needless to say, and only found out when my wife left the role and her salary became known to her previous colleagues.
I've been in the situation where my salary has been more than my boss. That is simply the correction needed at the time due to the market. And sadly thats life.
What I would suggest is to work on the case for another pay increase in your next annual review - especially if you've only just negotiated your pay increase (I'm assuming you did it this yr). If you do it now it may just come across as sour grape IMO.
Sorry I'd be negotiating now just a friendly chat type thing to start with and see how receptive your boss is to reviewing the situation, if he wasn't receptive to it I'd be brushing up my cv and looking if that's what the market dictates it also dictates you could earn more elsewhere.
I would imagine its fairly common, the longer you are in a job and only get small incremental rises each year but the market moves on ahead, I was in a organisation for 10 years and towards the end there were several new people who had a fairly sizeable salary over mine, when I left to join somewhere else this corrected itself and turned into a good rise for me.
Whilst I understand your point and rationale entirely, my thoughts have always been that as long as my renumeration matches what I feel that I'm worth to my company, and allows me to live the lifestyle that I want to live, then I don't care as much about what others are paid; that is for them to make that same assessment as far as I'm concerned.
Many people that work for me are paid more, and many of those were recruited by me and made salary offers by me - most often reflective of a need to be competitive in the market. If this did ever bother me though, I'm fairly sure that I could take it up with my boss, and it would be rectified without too much pressure being needed.
If you were happy when you received your most recent salary increase and your own circumstances haven't changed in between times then an alternative option is to not be too bothered with what your new colleague will be paid. But again, I do fully understand your point and it's probably not unreasonable to query this with your boss, if that's what you're of a mind to do.
There's lots of answers, but mine would be "with leverage".Originally Posted by Puntsdog
Go in and moan by all means but I don't think it will get you anywhere. The only real leverage you will have is to get another job offer and go in with that.
I had quite a few earning considerably more than me - albeit in particular specialisms for which there was a market premium (and I didn't have!), it's not uncommon.
But as this new hire seems to be a mini-you there should be no market premium, so like others I'd flag it informally with your boss and see what reaction you get.
Personally I'd be miffed.
I was in the same situation many years ago when I was teaching a guy the job, and found out (he told me) that he was earning the same as me.
I went straight down to the boss and told him I was leaving unless he upped my wage. I don't suggest you do that, but I'd be having the conversation for sure.
Quite often an employer can make the mistake of almost taking for granted a loyal and hard working employee, whilst in the pursuit of recruitment. You just assume their loyalty is unwaivering and they are happy. I would imagine that it hasn't even crossed their mind and if they value what you've achieved, they will may be quite shocked if you discuss it with them and discuss it you must. As you have mentioned it here, it's obviously important to you and probably would be an issue that will grow. You just need to be honest, diplomatic and present the facts.
As was once said to me, if something is bothering you and you don't tell the person and address it, the only person hurting/ losing out is you.
Handled the right way, you've nothing to lose and everything to gain. If they don't address it then it will speak volumes long term, but you'd be better off knowing that now.
Thank you all for your sage advice. My thoughts were to discuss it in the morning in a rational manner. My rise was very recent and on the basis that I had been approached with a job offer from an industry competitor so the leverage has been used so to speak. On saying that it is clear that I am, or could be, in demand and by my Director's admission will be hard to replace. Based on the experience of trying to hire a new person I doubt my Director would be happy to see me go although I do appreciate I should not count on this fact and be too bullish.
Tomorrow could be an interesting day...
This is the only way I think. But you need to be prepared for them to call your bluff.
You've just negotiated yourself a rise, so you won't get another one. What outcome are you looking for here? To get your junior's salary cut? That doesn't sound like a worthwhile use of your time, nor does it seem like good people management.
If you're getting fair compensation for the work you're doing, then I'd relax and enjoy spending it.
Not with that attitude!
No good employer would get rid of a great employee, just for asking the question.
If you don't ask...
underling ?
Lovely phrase OP
Well it was meant light-heartedly and I did correct it later. I have plenty of respect for my colleagues in all fairness and spend ample time protecting them where I can from some of the more aggressive people in the office.
As others have said it's market forces. Why stay and get a 3% rise when you can move to a competitor on +20% jump. I see it quite a lot in financial services where a people move on to the next firm after a few years. I did it last year when I became frustrated by new recruits with less experience and qualifications being paid more when they joined.
Edit to add: were you not aware of the salary range when the firm were recruiting particularly as you were involved in the process?
Last edited by Casper; 8th June 2017 at 21:16. Reason: Add a question
I was aware but only immediately prior to the interview. I'd not had time to think or act but I have now and I'll have a meeting with the Director tomorrow. We get on well and are both reasonable people so a civil discussion should not be an issue. We will see what happens...
Any chance of a guaranteed bonus to top up this year?
I've had that in the past when the job market went nuts in my discipline but a 2nd salary increase was not available to me...
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Best way to do it in my experience if you go in throwing your toys out of the pram they may dig their heels in, try and find the right balance of not threatening to leave but emphasising you're not happy about it. Good luck and I'll have a pint with your new pay rise please ;)
Typical of many business behaviours theses days.
Often, the only way to get a raise is to hand in a resignation.
Which (paradoxically) rewards precisely the opposite behaviour (loyalty) you would want to encourage.
It reflects an old school management approach of exploiting the workforce for minimum outlay.
Get out while you can & find an employer that both values & rewards your contributions.
IMHO.
z
You have to ask yourself, if you didn't know the other person's salary do you think you are fairly paid and can live the lifestyle you are accustomed to? If the answer is yes, what other people are paid is irrelevant. I would leave it until next pay review time.
Surely that's irrelevant now, he won't be able to just forget that the guy he's teaching is on the same money that wouldn't sit right in my mind and would niggle at me every day. We're all different I know but personally it would make me feel very undervalued
You hit the nail on the head there. It is about feeling under valued and taken for granted to a degree. My next pay review would be a year away basically as the most recent was only a couple of weeks ago.
Yes, I am happy with my wage. No, I am not happy that I will be teaching somebody to assist me in my job for more or equivalent money to me. The job they will be doing is fairly basic and none too specialised. The last colleague had zero experience and has proven to be a good worker with a great ethic and application but he was taken on at c £7k less than me so where is the logic? This was only in February of this year. My company are desperate for a replacement and are just throwing money at the problem not realising they are creating another problem by treating me this way. I think they've lost sight and hope to point it out to them in about 3 hours!
This situation did once happen to me - Had the friendly chat with the MD who said they had to pay over the odds for the new recruit but there was no extra money in the pot.
I immediately began jobsearching and found another company within about 4 weeks and left. A colleague of mine who was also being paid less than the "new boy" left around 5 weeks after me.
As a result, our original company had nobody to train the new recruit, lost two experienced staff members and had to spend £000s recruiting and training replacements. They staggered on for 3 years and then went bust.
I'm not suggesting this is what you should do, but it shows the dangers of not respecting the status of existing staff members.
I've been in both situations.
I earn about double my current division's manager. Although he doesn't really operate as my boss beyond handling the day to day running of the company. I'm the active front face to the clients and I'm the one who wins in the work (zero commission) and creatively and technically executes it.
I left one job 10 years ago as I was being paid about a third less than short term freelancers. They would work Saturdays and Sundays and get time in lui , which was then paid out when they left.
I would work unpaid overtime during the week to keep my weekends free for my family. This of course went unrecognised and at one stage it was suggested I wasn't pulling my weight by not automatically working weekends.
This was despite the fact:
My work was always completed on time.
The freelancer's wasn't .
The freelancers were doing hardly any extra work at the weekends.
I would inevitably have to complete the freelancer's work at the deadline under pressurised conditions.
I was paid less than the freelancers.
Some of the freelancers would stake a claim to having been responsable for the work after I had to complete it.
Needless to say the company lost me shortly afterwards . Said company again was one that never offered a payrise unless an terminal ultimatum was given. The final straw came when one manager insinuated I was putting my feet up because I had a week of work orders that had me down as "training" and not under specific paying projects. I told her not to worry it would never happen again and handed my notice in the next day. I'd already had an ex colleague beg me to come and help him expand his company.
HR apologised to me and I was given promises of pay rises and promotions but it was too little too late by then.
How did the conversation turn out?
Thanks for asking. Well I had the chat and it didn't quite go as I would have liked but not for the obvious reason.
The offered salary should apparently have been pro rata which my Director was quite adamant about. If this were the case then everything would fall into place and make perfect sense. My issue now is that I may have put some noses out of joint as my question has probably cost us the employee and irked the two other managers present in the interview. They were hauled in by the Director to clarify exactly what offer had been made to the applicant.
I'm not too fussed about one of these Managers as I questioned the relevance of his presence in the interview anyway and had voiced my concerns already. The candidate had been put forward by him and was a close friend and former colleague. Moreover the Manager is not very experienced in interviewing and has a penchant for making every discussion about himself. He had even offered to move into my Department for a few weeks whilst the candidate settled in so they would know somebody in the office and be more comfortable. There's little doubt in my mind that he would be buzzing about permanently taking credit for their appointment and expecting them to be permanently grateful and beholden unto him for his role in employing them.
Regardless, my Director seemed miffed. Maybe he didn't need the grief on a Friday, maybe he thought that the senior Managers should have understood what they were able to offer and expected them to make it clear. Maybe he thought I was overstepping the mark but to be clear at no point did I ask for more money even though he did say he wouldn't offer me any. If the job had been sold at the salary talked about then at some point the Director would have had to sign off the job offer so he would have seen the high offer at some point.
Putting a positive spin on things I have saved him time, avoided a crisis of conscience for a prospective employee and saved the company a little face.
The negative slant is that I am not sure if I have annoyed my Director.
What I'd like to think is that he can see me as an open, honest employee who has the ability to discuss matters that, if left unspoken, would fester and create issues further down the line.
We will see...
If you've annoyed the director then he's not a good director. These are the type of issues he's expected to deal with in his position and taking it out on you or holding you responsible is, IMHO, unprofessional.
Agreed.
Anyone who can't see that this might be an issue is not thinking straight. And it's good you only pointed it out, and didn't demand anything.
In my situation I received an immediate pay rise and whilst I didn't get an apology I know he had no good reason for taking that course of action. It's a slight to pay a new employee the same as an experienced long standing, trusted member of staff who's training them!
Situations vary if course but it sounds like in your case they've taken you for granted.
That, or your manager has made a bad decision in trying to get a friend the job, either way it needed sorting.
Last edited by ArcofZen; 10th June 2017 at 08:59.
Agree 100% with this. Where i work we are bringing in people with no experience, lesser qualifications and no knowledge of the job, to be trained up by me and others on 10% more than we get. But this is just trying to bring people in at market rates and replace contractors who are earning twice as much. If i want an increase i'll go out and get it either via promotion, or externally.
As for the outcome, it was about the only way it would end, and you have probably annoyed your director and others, because they gave you a pay increase recently which you were happy enough with, but now all of a sudden you're unhappy again, if they throw you another increase they'd probably be thinking 'what will he be unhappy about next month'.
There's no point complaining and there's no point talking about fairness.
I would calmly point out that you want more.
If the market for your skills is as you say, you'll be able to find another job with improved conditions. When you hand in your notice they'll keep you if they think you're worth it.
If you can't/won't do this then you'll have to put up with it or leave.
Last edited by Tony; 10th June 2017 at 10:52.
How noble and selfless of you to save the poor chap from the traumatic experience of earning more than his boss!
That's where I would have been too as no way of telling there was a cock up on the terms that had been offered. You did the right thing raising it regardless of the added twist
Last edited by thegreatdogwood; 10th June 2017 at 12:43.
I would challenge it and look elsewhere to be honest
The clue here was in the positive spin.
Thanks for your comment nonetheless.
Is everything else equal, eg. Pension scheme. I once had a slightly higher salary than my boss for these same reasons. However, I was in the new defined contribution pension scheme with a 12% company contribution. He was in the old final salary scheme and the annual accrual was worth more like 36% of his salary. Overall this meant his package was a lot higher than mine despite the headline salary.
This is a very common situation, as people advise when you recruit externally you have to pay the market rate.
Do you enjoy your job and working for your company ?
Ask yourself the question if your new assistant was being paid significantly less than you, would you be happy with your recent increased salary ?
Now two points that I am stating/asking directly so please don't be upset by them.
1. Using or even thinking the word 'underling' suggests to me you have a certain outdated attitude and there is a danger you will poison your relationship with the new person from the start.
2. I am making an assumption the new person may be female (on the basis of 4 days per week), therefore do you have some deep routed sexism that women should not earn the same as you ?
The bottom line is are you happy in your job ?
Because what other people earn is actually irrelevent.
If I was your director and you came to me whining about what somebody else earns after recently giving you a pay rise, you would greatly diminish any respect I have for you and how I value you.
Therefore get your head down, work hard, look to improve everyday and you will get recognition.
Last edited by BadgerUK; 11th June 2017 at 10:12.
This.
And this.
And yes, I am a business owner/director and employer.
Just in the interest of accuracy and relevance if you had read the post correctly you would have noticed that I changed my use of the term underling at a point further into my original post. I'll also add that I hold no out-dated views in either this regard or with regards to male/female salary imbalances.
I'd like to think that people generally earn what they are worth and have no issue with people earning more or less than me except that is when they are brought in to assist me on potentially more money. I think there is a case for raising a question under these circumstances so that is what I chose to do.
I think a couple of the comments above would only serve to paint me in an unnecessarily bad light if anybody were not to read the thread in its entirety but fair play to you both, you have made your points even though I say you could have paid more attention to my original post before responding.
It seems to happen a lot of this forum recently.
My suggestion would have been to approach this without reference to the new employee's package - that type of conversation can only appear childish and would rub most senior people up the wrong way. The conversation I would suggest you need to have with your manager / director is one where you thank them for his / her support and the recent pay increase and, being clear your ambition is to remain with the company, to ask what do you need to contribute to get to the next level either in terms of seniority or pay. This way you've turned the conversation around to how you can further help the company, communicated your ambition and hopefully come away with a plan of action to move "you" forward.
Last edited by jwillans; 11th June 2017 at 21:55.
Fairness is a concept invented to give stupid people something to argue about.
If you want more money ask for it or go elsewhere to get it. But if you don't get it then worrying about it is a waste of your energies.
Just my tuppence.
This is an interesting thread.
If the new recruit has little experience in the field they are working, and they are being trained by someone with significantly more experienced, what should the pay differential roughly be as a percentage? And does it matter what the actual salary is in determining that percentage?
I think the OP is being a bit unfairly treated here and quite right to enquire about having a more junior/ inexperienced role with a higher salary - I'm in the process of recruiting a role to assist me (not specialist that would demand a premium), and would be slightly miffed if they were going to require a higher salary than mine - irrelevant of having had a pay rise recently or not.
I also would have no issue of being asked the question (I'd actually have more respect for someone who would bring it up in the right way, than letting it fester).
A former manager of mine received a pay rise when I accepted a counter offer from my employer, as she had been in the business for a few years and never had a pay rise to what she was worth or even close to market rate. I don't think she even had to ask for it and shouldn't of in my opinion.
Companies really need to understand how to treat employees they value and what will annoy them.
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If market rates dictates the same salary as what you are earning now after your raise 2 weeks ago,and considering he is not qualified to do your job, I'd say that you didn't do your homework before negotiating your raise, or you negotiated badly, or you are too comfortable in this company to rock the boat being prepared to go elsewhere (or a combination of the above).
At the end of the day, coming back for yet another raise would not endear you to me, even if I had been prepared to pay you more than you negotiated 2 weeks ago.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
The only way to get a decent pay rise is to get another job (or move to a different country whilst staying with the same company, which is what I'm doing)
It sucks, and no amount of talking to the boss did any good for me, his hands were tied.
What really peeved me was the amount of holiday, I didn't even think about negotiating the holidays!
Why didn't you ask about the salary for the post when you became involved in the process?
To complain about an appointee's salary now, particularly one you were involved in placing in post, smacks of sour grapes.
______
Jim.
Fine. If you think you're earning what you're worth, what's the problem?
If you're not, what's it got to do with what someone else earns?
Someone else chimed in and said he too would be 'miffed' about the situation. I think we all would, but that's not the point, and certainly not an argument you could use to the firm to justify further raises for you.
If I were the director and someone came to me with a complaint like this, I'd be inclined to say "Oh, you don't want to be in charge of someone who earns more than you? Fine. We'll make him your boss, then."
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