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Thread: Day trading - who's playing? How much and how?

  1. #1

    Day trading - who's playing? How much and how?

    I'm seeing loads of apps following trades etc

    A neighbour of mine has quit his job after trying out for a few months

    Indeed is moving abroad to live as can trade from any internet connection ruin of course



    I'm interested
    I'm a gambler too

    What's the best way to play? I'm sceptical of set up a non real account thing...

  2. #2
    Master IAmATeaf's Avatar
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    Make sure the money you use is money you can afford to lose. I used to do day trading many years ago, lost around 10k and my wife then pulled my day trading pocket money so stopped.

    My brother in-law and uncle have both lost substantial amounts of money on share trading as well, maybe my side of the family are just crap traders but for me i started to break my own rules, started to get greedy and started increase my float money (as more money meant more profit) which as a result meant i was taking more risks which is ultimately what led to my losses.

    I still have over 12k of shares tied up to this day which are now worth just over half but i do get good dividends from them.

    I'm sure there are more successful day traders then me but as i said right at the start, the losses didn't break me as it was spare money.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by IAmATeaf; 16th April 2017 at 11:48.

  3. #3
    A gambler, day trading. That sounds a recipe for a disaster

  4. #4
    Master rabbitinheadlights's Avatar
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    A friend of mine did this quite successfully for about a year. However he got caught out and lost the lot in one day. He's a really bright guy but in the end realised that you can't move quick enough when things go bad, which at some point they will.

  5. #5
    Day trading is similar to playing roulette against the house. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but at the end of the day, the provider takes it all.

    So basically it boils down to the question, whether the intention is to play/gamble or you intend to make money. If its the former, then day trading can certainly provide that. If the latter, then fundamental Buffett like investing may be the answer, however it requires much more than just sitting down clicking buttons

  6. #6
    Master IAmATeaf's Avatar
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    Another thing, you can't just start day trading, i actually followed the markets and did a lot of reading for well over a year before i even dipped my toes in, and you have to be in a position to know the rates and have the ability to sell immediately. My 12k current share holding was a result of me deciding to drive home and then sell rather than staying at work, tracking and selling.

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  7. #7
    Master
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    When the world and his dog gave up work to day trade in the late 90's they nearly all lost their shirts when the technology bubble burst which spawned the saying '90% of day traders lose money'.

    May be different nowadays but generally people only jump on the bandwagon when they hear about other people doing well and making money out of the stock market and by then you've missed the boat.

    For me the market is very high to be entering into it in such a high risk area and with all the global tension in N Korea, Russia and Syria, add in an unpredictable US President and no one having any real idea of how the markets may start to react to Brexit, there's a lot of potential 'sudden' news that could appear and whilst it may only be a blip in the grand scheme of things, could be the sort of news that wipes out a day trader.

    Just use money you can afford to lose, good luck if you do it and keep us informed :-)

  8. #8
    One of the things that I've learnt along the way is to invest in things you know about. For me, that's music related bits and pieces and occasional watches. Knowledge is power and all that. I guess I'm a bit cautious but day trading with limited experience sounds like a recipe for disaster.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Devonian View Post
    When the world and his dog gave up work to day trade in the late 90's they nearly all lost their shirts when the technology bubble burst which spawned the saying '90% of day traders lose money'.

    May be different nowadays but generally people only jump on the bandwagon when they hear about other people doing well and making money out of the stock market and by then you've missed the boat.

    For me the market is very high to be entering into it in such a high risk area and with all the global tension in N Korea, Russia and Syria, add in an unpredictable US President and no one having any real idea of how the markets may start to react to Brexit, there's a lot of potential 'sudden' news that could appear and whilst it may only be a blip in the grand scheme of things, could be the sort of news that wipes out a day trader.

    Just use money you can afford to lose, good luck if you do it and keep us informed :-)
    Day trading is slightly different as you can make money (or lose a ton) betting on movements in the market up and down, so the fact the market is high is irrelevant really. Still incredibly difficult for day traders to make money. The big problem is the banks and hedge funds use High Frequency Trading and as an individual there is too much lag in the online platforms so you'll almost always lose.

  10. #10
    Craftsman
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    Go to the casino and bet on Red or Black , the odds are far better ..

  11. #11
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    At the end of the day trading is leaching : you may make money from it but you are making nothing useful to society.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  12. #12
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    I had a go a few years back, gave myself £5K to play with, I trippled that in around 3 months of trading Oil/Gold/Silver, it was a very good time for that.

    during this my wife was very impressed, and so was I, until that is Oil just fell of the ledge and plummeted, I think I lost the lot in around a week.

    lessons learned?

    expect to lose the lot,
    spread bet, so to speak, dont have all your eggs in one basket.
    prepare to lose sleep, as some of the trades only make money in a few minutes/hours of flurry.
    dont be expected to be wandering around like Gorden Gecko after 3 days.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by IAmATeaf View Post
    Make sure the money you use is money you can afford to lose. I used to do day trading many years ago, lost around 10k and my wife then pulled my day trading pocket money so stopped.

    My brother in-law and uncle have both lost substantial amounts of money on share trading as well, maybe my side of the family are just crap traders but for me i started to break my own rules, started to get greedy and started increase my float money (as more money meant more profit) which as a result meant i was taking more risks which is ultimately what led to my losses.

    I still have over 12k of shares tied up to this day which are now worth just over half but i do get good dividends from them.

    I'm sure there are more successful day traders then me but as i said right at the start, the losses didn't break me as it was spare money.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    I for one appreciate your honesty and that of others. Those who are successful are much more likely to shout about it than those who lose money, so your post provides very useful balance.

    I lost about a grand of my student loan trying to buy shares that had undergone a huge devaluation, in the hopes of catching a small upturn. They did go up in value, for a few days then they became totally worthless (Marconi).
    Last edited by ernestrome; 16th April 2017 at 14:17.

  14. #14
    As with most things, there is the potential to make money. But making it requires something that most people attracted to trading in the first place, don't have - discipline.

  15. #15
    Grand Master
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    To the OP go large or go home, best of luck and keep us informed

  16. #16
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    I've always been a big fan of stock market investment, but Day Trading - no thanks.

    Heard too many horror stories and recall very few with a decent outcome.

    The odds are stacked against you rather like Forex.

    If you are a gambler stick with what you know.

    Have you tried online poker? My youngest has done well on that over the past couple of years.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

    My Speedmaster website:

    http://www.freewebs.com/neil271052

  17. #17
    Master tiny73's Avatar
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    I'm seeing a resurgence in capes hence I'm staking a lot of money in Capetastic. I'm slightly concerned about their Business model so I may hedge with Capemongous who have exposure to these top hats in addition. Mind, let's not forget CapetainAmerica who have a mixed porthfolio with monocle production also. Think I'll bet the farm on the lot of them, what could possibly go wrong?


    Seriously OP, most commercial trading is done with algorithms trading at nanoseconds delays and front running retail investors. When retail investors are encouraged to trade like this you can bet your money (which you'll lose) on the smart money looking for an out. I'd stay well away and listen to the sage advice related to you above.

  18. #18
    Master sean's Avatar
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    It's a zero sum game: you transact with someone when you are buying and selling. What makes you think you'll know more than the other party?

  19. #19
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    Had a little dabble a few years back and like others made a relative fortune within a very short time gambled 7k and ended up around 33k within a couple of weeks a little bit of blind luck and not having a clue what I was doing seemed to work well for me. Then I lost the lot within 2-3 days I still have a bit just left in various things but it taught me I'm an idiot when it comes to trading I will have another punt at some point but far more cautiously than I was. Like any gambling don't gamble what you can't afford to lose the 7k was my don't care (too much) amount but wiping out 24k in one day really hurt luckily it wasn't money I'd actually had so didn't affect our lives but it still hurt.

  20. #20
    Master IAmATeaf's Avatar
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    My brother Inlaws float was around 30k which he built up at one time to 100k then lost it all. My uncles float was a lot more than, when he lost most of it it caused a rift in the family, he was living with his son at that time and effectively had to move out as his son was so incensed.

    So, eyes wide open with discipline aplenty is a must.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by sean View Post
    It's a zero sum game: you transact with someone when you are buying and selling. What makes you think you'll know more than the other party?
    We are TZers.

  22. #22
    Craftsman
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    The market has some of the brightest minds in the world working on it day and night with unlimited resources behind them.

    Anyone who thinks they can beat any of the main markets on their own is at best kidding themselves.

    Transaction costs alone for individual traders make it impossible.

  23. #23
    You can purchase automated trading platforms which are pre-programmed with data and to spot trends and movements. These systems can auto trade and you can set your stop losses to within your budgets.

    Be warned though, the best systems are very expensive, but also perform the best. I know one chap that spent 150k on a package and he makes very good money.

  24. #24
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    Read this book first is my advice

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/Come-...y+trading+room

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by langdalematt View Post
    You can purchase automated trading platforms which are pre-programmed with data and to spot trends and movements. These systems can auto trade and you can set your stop losses to within your budgets.

    Be warned though, the best systems are very expensive, but also perform the best. I know one chap that spent 150k on a package and he makes very good money.
    The amount that investment banks put into such systems puts that figure into the pail, plus the amount spent ensuring their platforms are connected with the lowest latency to the exchanges mean you are doing extremely well if you trade ahead of them. If you do expect a offer to develop platforms for them.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by dougair View Post
    . The big problem is the banks and hedge funds use High Frequency Trading and as an individual there is too much lag in the online platforms so you'll almost always lose.
    This is what would scare me if I was the OP.

    I know a few bankers from Uni days (undergrad economics and postgrad law degrees) and the level of information these guys have is incredible. I know it's obvious when you think about it, but traders aren't analysing information, analysts who specialise in the minutiae of a sector or industry are, and then transmitting to traders. So every one of you is competing against several to them to make it to the trade when you're already at a disadvantage due to the high frequency trading platforms mentioned above.

    Out of interest, what sort of gambler are you and what do you gamble on?


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  27. #27
    Craftsman hyl1987's Avatar
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    IMO don't believe any sort of trading adverts or books. Nothing that could actually make money consistently will ever be sold at that cheap a price. If someone did really know or have a software to make money consistently they won't be dishing it out for free or a couple of quid, when they could actually use it to make a whole lot more.

    I have a couple of close friends that work as traders as none of them bother investing their own money (independence issues aside) in significant amounts of assets.

    It's pretty hard managing your own money in investments with enough discipline, i.e. setting stop losses etc.

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  28. #28
    Master Tokyo Tokei's Avatar
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    Day traders waste their working hours, pay transaction fees and lose sleep in order to provide liquidity for everyone else.

    Blodget, disgraced trader from one of my previous employers, is free to speak the truth:
    http://www.businessinsider.com/henry...l-again-2010-3

    Put differently, far from this being an enriching line of work, 4 out of 5 people engaged in it pay to do it. Only 1 in 100, meanwhile, make enough to be worth writing home about.

    The folks who predictably make money from day trading, of course, are the folks who sell traders tools for their day trading: Information courses, "how-to" advice, data streams, stock charts, technical analysis, trading clubs, investment advice, stock picks, you name it. Those folks do quite well from day-trading. Unless they're dumb enough to actually trade.
    Last edited by Tokyo Tokei; 17th April 2017 at 08:20.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    The amount that investment banks put into such systems puts that figure into the pail, plus the amount spent ensuring their platforms are connected with the lowest latency to the exchanges mean you are doing extremely well if you trade ahead of them. If you do expect a offer to develop platforms for them.
    As someone who works with the bank systems - this basically. The day trading systems are, to be frank, nice and shiny to entice people in but it matters for nowt. Banks pay a LOT of £££ to be colocated in the stock exchange server rooms so by the time you've seen a shift in the market they've already gone in or worse, got out. I once saw the line item for just FPGA hardware investment and it was ridiculous . something like £5m invested just in getting the latest chip sets for a nano-second advantage.

    Day trading as a job with "an internet connection" as a career is a sure fire route to massive stress and minimal returns.

    As others have said don't believe the survivorship bias of a few books or headlines. For every one successful person (at that point in time) there are tens of thousands who lost it all.

  30. #30
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    OP, it took me ten minutes of research to come up with that old adage "a fool and his money are soon parted". However, you say you're a gambler...

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokyo Tokei View Post
    Day traders waste their working hours, pay transaction fees and lose sleep in order to provide liquidity for everyone else.

    Blodget, disgraced trader from one of my previous employers, is free to speak the truth:
    http://www.businessinsider.com/henry...l-again-2010-3
    TT good to see you around, I haven't seen you post much recently.

  32. #32
    Master Tokyo Tokei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    TT good to see you around, I haven't seen you post much recently.
    Thank you sir. I was absent, pleading boredom once again. Haven't recovered my interest in watches as yet, but have stumbled back in to the George on occasion.

  33. #33
    Craftsman jamesianbriggs's Avatar
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    Michael Lewis' Flash Boys is a very entertaining way to get an insight into the physical and digital extremes banks will go to in order to gain an edge.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00I9PVK..._1492423354953


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  34. #34
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    A few years ago I spent some time working at a spread betting company. A few people made money consistently, the vast majority (I seems to recall 95% lost). As mentioned above quite often a single event wiping accounts out.


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  35. #35
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    The fact you need to ask shows you know bugger all and that is not good. In fact you are asking to be shafted.

    The market is way too high at the present to put money in. Hold back and wait until the next crash and then buy a tracker.

  36. #36
    Master chrisb's Avatar
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    Just do it. Go all in and let us know how it went.

  37. #37
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    My Father is semi retired so has quite a bit if time on his hands. He has spend many years trading and has learnt the hard way how cruel it can be. That being said, he has been consistently successful for the past 2 years both years looking at a 40% profit. His success has come from setting himself some rules. The way he trades is purely analytical, therefore there are no emotions involved which can very easily be the cause of big losses like any other gambler. Also he only trades in the ftse100 as it tends to be less versatile.
    If you're smart and have time (and money) to devote to it it can a profitable hobby. But this is just one success story (at the moment) that has only happened from big losses.
    All the best if you do decide to go for it but make sure you only get what you can afford to lose.

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  38. #38
    Has anyone mentioned Plus500.
    You could have a practice run without using real money.

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by timlin View Post
    Has anyone mentioned Plus500.
    You could have a practice run without using real money.
    Which is good fun, but that's about it. The live system doesn't execute trades as quickly as the demo version and speed is everything.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    The fact you need to ask shows you know bugger all and that is not good. In fact you are asking to be shafted.

    The market is way too high at the present to put money in. Hold back and wait until the next crash and then buy a tracker.
    I concur with this.

  41. #41
    Craftsman Frakius's Avatar
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    It's possible to make money, but the risk is so high and the odds are stacked against you, as others have pointed out you can win for a while then lose it all. Remember people have to lose for you to win and you're competing against banks that are willing to spend hundreds of millions to dig a tunnel through a mountain to save 200 milliseconds in latency on transactions and employ armies of super math geeks/analysts with PHD's coming out of their arses.

  42. #42
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    Day trading - who's playing? How much and how?

    Strictly, day trading means you never hold a position for more than a day, clue's in the name really.
    Also, just looking at the maths (I'm sure someone will jump in if I've misunderstood) it seems to me the best traders in the city return 5-10% over a year, so a stake of £100k, if you're as good as the professional city traders, will return you £5-10k a year. Doesn't seem likely it'll keep anyone in nice new watches.


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    Last edited by berin; 17th April 2017 at 22:20.

  43. #43
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    I work for a CFO of a hedge fund, they make good money as they are playing with the banks money. They cream off a percentage from the billions they have under management.
    As for the average pi you are simply gambling as a day trader, investing is slightly different if you use stops but as others have said it doesn't take long to loose your shirt.
    You are the last to know as a pi & you simply can't move fast enough

  44. #44
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    I knew a guy who quit his job to go day trading. Claimed to be doing well at it, but then ended up refurbing shops and asking me to try get his old job back. Suspect he was either ticking over or losing money and getting daddy to pay the rent.

    The research i did at the time led me to believe that if you really want to trade them go work for a trading house and do it with a much larger pot of someone else's money!

  45. #45
    Master bobbee's Avatar
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    Don't be a mug.

  46. #46
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    Well thank you Dr May. I note that of the three posts you’ve currently made, all contain links to external websites. So kind to help us all out. Please do stick around and tell us a little about yourself.

    Kindest Regards
    Dave.

  47. #47
    Master Maysie's Avatar
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    Well researched medium to long term trading in the stock market is an investment, which can still go either way.

    Day trading is just gambling.

    Over trading is also often a sign of poor trading practice.

  48. #48
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweepinghand View Post
    I'm seeing loads of apps following trades etc

    A neighbour of mine has quit his job after trying out for a few months

    Indeed is moving abroad to live as can trade from any internet connection ruin of course



    I'm interested
    I'm a gambler too

    What's the best way to play? I'm sceptical of set up a non real account thing...
    Been 4 years now. How's the neighbour, still trading? Still quit his job?

    Curious to see if it worked out for him.

  49. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    Been 4 years now. How's the neighbour, still trading? Still quit his job?

    Curious to see if it worked out for him.
    He’s now trading Lego blocks.

  50. #50
    I was a professional institutional trader (for a hedge fund and later, a commodity trader). The tools that were available to me were incredible: banks of analysts, the very best in risk management systems, the fastest news services. That is a profitable seat.

    Now out of that game, I trade for my personal account (mostly crypto and commodities, some indices). Now I am just another retail player against an institution.

    Also as a day trader I disagree that it is a zero sum game. That would suggest one winner, one loser. There is a significant third party who always wins and that is the exchange or broker. They take zero risk and skim their spread. So from the start you need to beat two players, the spread and then the counterparty.

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