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Thread: Grey market has become a necessary evil for luxury watchmakers

  1. #1
    Master sean's Avatar
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    Grey market has become a necessary evil for luxury watchmakers

    From here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-swi...-idUKKBN17E2EA

    Grey market has become a necessary evil for luxury watchmakers

    By Silke Koltrowitz | ZURICH

    A diamond-studded Rolex at 40 percent off the $34,000 (28,845 pound) retail price or an Omega Speedmaster Moonphase for less than $10,000? While still out of reach for most people, the increasing prevalence of such deals highlights the perplexing predicament in which luxury watchmakers now find themselves.

    With sales falling, more unsold timepieces are finding their way from the Swiss-dominated industry's carefully controlled official retail networks to online platforms where they are often offered at steep discounts.

    Swiss watchmakers say they loathe this "grey market" because high discounts damage the meticulously crafted aura of prestige and make it harder to sell their goods at the full price.

    "In luxury goods, when you break the illusion of prestige, the dream, the prices, it takes away the confidence. It means slow death for luxury goods," Jean-Claude Biver, head of LVMH's (LVMH.PA) watch division, told Reuters at last month's Baselworld watch fair, describing the grey market as the "industry's cancer".

    However, a sudden end to a boom in Chinese demand is forcing the brands to begin working quietly with dealers in the grey market, occasionally to help with sales but mostly to secure some influence over the unofficial resellers, according to dealers and industry executives interviewed by Reuters.

    "There are many sources for grey market watches: authorised retailers who want to get rid of slow-selling models, country distributors or even the brands themselves," said one watch industry executive who asked not to be named.

    He said that in some cases operators in the grey market are cooperating with the brands, removing new models from sale when asked or reducing discounts manufacturers consider excessive.

    FREE ADVERTISING

    Though representatives of the biggest luxury watchmakers, including Swatch Group (UHR.S) and Richemont (CFR.S), refused to discuss their strategy with regard to the grey market, some manufacturers may find that it offers benefits.

    "For every timepiece we sell, the manufacturer is getting the lion's share of the profit, and then all the search engine queries, image searches, social media brand posts, tweets and pins are terrific and free (advertising)," said Darryl Randall, founder and owner of United States-based online platform SwissLuxury.com, which he said generates sales of about $10 million in good years.

    Another grey market dealer said he will sometimes withdraw watches if asked by manufacturers and that brands regularly offer U.S. dealers packages of 15 or 20 pieces at a discount.

    "As much as the brands dislike us, we have more or less the same goals they have -- we also want to sell the goods and be able to make a profit," he said.

    Chinese demand for luxury timepieces boomed after the 2008/09 financial crisis, leading to a surge in production and retail prices. But demand has dropped sharply in the past two years as extremist attacks have deterred tourists from visiting Europe, where many of the watches are sold, and China has cracked down on luxury gift-giving by civil servants.

    It was difficult to rein in production when demand fell, partly because the watches are put together slowly in stages, meaning production plans are often made two years in advance.

    Nobody needs a luxury product, but the brands find that when customers see and touch an intricately crafted watch in an opulent boutique and are drawn into its "story", they will want it so much that the price becomes secondary.

    MIXED AVAILABILITY

    In the good times, the industry can take home 20 percent of sales as profit and retailers are still left with an attractive margin of up to 45 percent.

    But when business tails off, the manufacturers do not allow official retailers to cut sticker prices too far, fearing that big discounts will damage their brands -- a policy that may push cash-strapped retailers to sell to the grey market.

    Swiss watch exports fell 8 percent in the first two months of this year, on top of a 10 percent drop last year.

    In the grey market sales are often clinched in small, shabby stores or via online platforms that do not have most of the watches in stock and source them only when orders are placed.

    Randall said that brands vary in their efforts to keep products out of the grey market. Some of the hardest to source are Patek Philippe and Richard Mille, which both keep a tight rein on production. Audemars Piguet, another independent brand, only distributes certain models through its own boutiques.

    "Brands like (Swatch's) Omega and (LVMH's) Tag Heuer are easily available at all times," Randall said.

    The unnamed U.S. grey market dealer agreed and said that Richemont's Jaeger-LeCoultre and Vacheron Constantin and Swatch's Breguet are also easy to source.

    The United States is the second-biggest market for Swiss watches and is a hub for grey market watches, with online platforms such as Jomashop.com, AuthenticWatches.com and PrestigeTime.com.

    "There's a lot of grey market watches coming in from outside the country. The excess of the world's products used to flow to Hong Kong, now it flows to the States," said Danny Govberg, an official U.S. retail partner for Switzerland's biggest brands but who also sells pre-owned watches online.

    He confirmed that brands sometimes offer him new pieces to sell as pre-owned but would not name them and said it was only a small share of his flourishing business.

    FROM ZURICH WITH A DISCOUNT

    The grey market is by no means restricted to the United States. Germany's Chrono24.com has sales offices in both Hong Kong and New York, while a lot of grey market watches are also sold on Amazon (AMZN.O) and eBay (EBAY.O), the unnamed watch industry executive said.

    As its name suggests, there are no statistics on the grey market and few dealers are willing to explain how the system works.

    Unlike fakes, grey market watches are legal, authentic goods sold by their rightful owners, though they generally come without factory warranties because brands refuse to service watches that are not sold via their official networks.

    While that might deter some buyers, other more price-conscious shoppers may actually prefer the convenience of the online platforms that are tempting potential customers with trade-in schemes for old watches, financing solutions, price-match guarantees and their own warranty and service centres.

    Randall said he has been sourcing most of his watches in the United States to get them to customers quickly but can also find good deals in Europe thanks in part to the strong dollar.

    "We just sold a beautiful Jaquet Droz Eclipse to a Chicago businessman and were able to get a great deal and quick shipment out of Zurich. The price was so good we gave him an additional $2,000 discount," Randall said, adding he sold the watch at 22 percent below the list price of $29,300.

    Saifullah Kazmi, from Karachi, said he bought a TAG Heuer Carrera at almost half price on Jomashop.com and had a relative bring it to Pakistan, where a local retailer confirmed that it was genuine.

    Kazmi was concerned at first about the legitimacy of Jomashop and the absence of a factory warranty, but the big discount tipped the scales, he said.

  2. #2
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    If the grey market retailers can sell the watches and the manufactures can't then it's simple economic: Over supply causes prices to fall and vice-versa so the manufacturers have to either reduce the price or reduce the production.
    Fundamentally though the Swiss watch industry is to blame by allowing the watches to get on the grey market in the first place.
    Rolex seem to have the tightest control and as certain items can only be repaired by Rolex a time will come where any watch not purchased from an AD will either attract a premium to be repaired or the repair will be refused altogether.
    Perhaps this is the way the industry will go though not palatable for the end user.


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  3. #3
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    I've long thought that grey dealers are critical for companies like Rolex to maintain high retail prices (which are supposedly always paid) on many of their watches, specifically watches that were relatively popular but perhaps not the most popular. Inferring from the price and availability for many models in the grey market it seemed to be the only way for many dealers to shift the volume that they had to.

    For other, much more popular models, the grey network feeds of demand being much higher than supply. In this case, even if the watches were only sold through price-controlled boutiques, there would still be a grey market because demand vs. very limited (artificially limited?) supply would continue to push up the street price way about RRP.

    So grey dealers seem to be critical on the one hand to maintain the facade of artificially high prices on some models from some manufacturers and on the other hand, for other models from certain manufacturers, greys simply service the market demand that the manufacturers themselves are unwilling to meet through making more.

  4. #4
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    Interesting read.

    Thanks for posting.

  5. #5
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    Interesting read indeed-thanks for posting. The supply and some peoples requirement to "want it /have it now" requirement drives the imo unrealistic grey market. One grey dealer told me their retail/sale price for a rolex deep blue of £11k plus was competitive and tried to correct me when I said its retail was just over £9k. Whats worse was the 12% they charged additionally on the finance option-that being said there must be some that do pay it.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean View Post
    Very informative,thanks for posting.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Watchaddict View Post
    Interesting read indeed-thanks for posting. The supply and some peoples requirement to "want it /have it now" requirement drives the imo unrealistic grey market. One grey dealer told me their retail/sale price for a rolex deep blue of £11k plus was competitive and tried to correct me when I said its retail was just over £9k. Whats worse was the 12% they charged additionally on the finance option-that being said there must be some that do pay it.
    That's straight out of the Brighthouse playbook!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystery Scott View Post
    That's straight out of the Brighthouse playbook!


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    LOL

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    Interesting, and it is obvious that,'grey' dealers must get supplies through ADs, and even some manufacturers....although they are damaging their own brand in the longer term.
    But note the source....a guy selling these sort of watches. That is not a neutral or reliable source. He is pushing his own line. But there will be some truth in there, mixed with the propaganda.
    The real issue seems to be the inability of some manufacturers to control production. If you,churn stuff out in a weak market....hardly rocket science. They must restrain production or lower prices. Patek, for example, seems to have cut back, which has strengthened prices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    Interesting, and it is obvious that,'grey' dealers must get supplies through ADs, and even some manufacturers....although they are damaging their own brand in the longer term.
    But note the source....a guy selling these sort of watches. That is not a neutral or reliable source. He is pushing his own line. But there will be some truth in there, mixed with the propaganda.
    The real issue seems to be the inability of some manufacturers to control production. If you,churn stuff out in a weak market....hardly rocket science. They must restrain production or lower prices. Patek, for example, seems to have cut back, which has strengthened prices.
    As long as brands try to keep their huge production at the same level but have horrible turn around times for service and repairs - at similarly horrible prices - things are going to go down at a certain moment.

    They should look into training personnel to service watches and work on customer satisfaction at decent prices.
    Bind the customer that way and not just with more overpiced tat.

  11. #11
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    Cutting production sounds like an easy solution, but running any production facility at significantly less than capacity becomes costly. If manufacturers have geared up for a given level of production it hurts them to produce below it. The alternative is to cut prices and keep the volumes, but that goes against the grain for luxury goods producers.

    Paul

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    Master Bernard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Cutting production sounds like an easy solution, but running any production facility at significantly less than capacity becomes costly. If manufacturers have geared up for a given level of production it hurts them to produce below it. The alternative is to cut prices and keep the volumes, but that goes against the grain for luxury goods producers.

    Paul
    Or teach personnel to service watches and produce spare parts...
    Sounds better than just continuing huge outputs which are only sold at lower prices.

  13. #13
    Master Alansmithee's Avatar
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    That story tends to use some higher end examples but it's pretty clear that it's the mid and low end where the market is flooded - you cannot move without falling over Hamilton, alpina, rado. Even Breitling regularly turn up on the American grey dealers.

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    Sadly I think the the industry by ever-increasing the prices of wristwatches are creating the same kind of bubble as the 2008 one with mortgages.
    I by no means suggest the consequences will be similar, just don't think that in general that the prices are justified by the quality of the pieces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jancik View Post
    Sadly I think the the industry by ever-increasing the prices of wristwatches are creating the same kind of bubble as the 2008 one with mortgages.
    I by no means suggest the consequences will be similar, just don't think that in general that the prices are justified by the quality of the pieces.
    Are there any watches that are mortgaged?

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    I actually know about cases where people took mortgage on their house in order to buy a watch, but my point was that it the prices are exceeding the value of the watches more and more.

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    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Cutting production sounds like an easy solution, but running any production facility at significantly less than capacity becomes costly. If manufacturers have geared up for a given level of production it hurts them to produce below it. The alternative is to cut prices and keep the volumes, but that goes against the grain for luxury goods producers.

    Paul
    The question is which is more costly, running the facility at a lower output or holding an ever increasing inventory of unsold stock?

    The third alternative is to create greater demand; something which only Rolex and to a lesser extent, Omega (with their limited edition Speedmasters) seem to have achieved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    I've long thought that grey dealers are critical for companies like Rolex to maintain high retail prices (which are supposedly always paid) on many of their watches, specifically watches that were relatively popular but perhaps not the most popular. Inferring from the price and availability for many models in the grey market it seemed to be the only way for many dealers to shift the volume that they had to.
    Does one see Rolex watches on the grey market at all? On grey dealer websites at least, I don't recall ever seeing any. And I have to say I wasn't even surprised - they really do give the impression that all of their models are intensely popular and that people are crawling over one another to get hold of them (if only because they're great about keeping the supply just below the demand).

    By the way, my focus hasn't been on watches much over the last two years - has there been a consensus reached about the new Air King? I remember that it was a curiously devisive (very unusually for Rolex) piece when it came out ...

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    Craftsman Pubdweller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasz View Post
    Does one see Rolex watches on the grey market at all? On grey dealer websites at least, I don't recall ever seeing any. And I have to say I wasn't even surprised - they really do give the impression that all of their models are intensely popular and that people are crawling over one another to get hold of them (if only because they're great about keeping the supply just below the demand).

    By the way, my focus hasn't been on watches much over the last two years - has there been a consensus reached about the new Air King? I remember that it was a curiously devisive (very unusually for Rolex) piece when it came out ...
    Take a look at iconic watches

    I bought my DSSD from there in 2014..paid £6600 against a list of £8050

    Like the article says, grey dealers are a necessary evil for manufacturers overproducing..its all supply and demand

  20. #20
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    Interesting that an unworn SubC on Iconics is for £5,510 and 14060M (obviously pre-own) is £5,900. Am I missing something here?

  21. #21
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jancik View Post
    Interesting that an unworn SubC on Iconics is for £5,510 and 14060M (obviously pre-own) is £5,900. Am I missing something here?
    114060s are still in production and not particularly rare. The 14060 on the other hand, whilst not being rare, is no longer in production, very popular and in pretty scarce supply at the moment.

    Most of the five figure models are edging up to new six figure models prices, the exception being the 116600 seadweller which is currently in high demand due its short production run and the new 216600 being released.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasz View Post
    Does one see Rolex watches on the grey market at all? On grey dealer websites at least, I don't recall ever seeing any.
    Yes, all the time, you can't be looking very hard. I've had six Rolex watches, two from ADs and four from grey dealers

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by nunya View Post
    Yes, all the time, you can't be looking very hard. I've had six Rolex watches, two from ADs and four from grey dealers
    No, I'm not, to be honest, they're well out of my price range - but I saw that much more of TAG, Omega, and Breitling that I assumed Rolex has somehow found a way to keep a lid on their supply chain so to speak.

  24. #24
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasz View Post
    Does one see Rolex watches on the grey market at all? On grey dealer websites at least, I don't recall ever seeing any.
    Yes, Rolex watches are very common indeed on the grey market! Prices are either below or above RRP depending on model desirability and supply. If you've not seen Rolex on grey dealer websites then you've definitely been looking at the wrong websites. ;-) Really, if you look at grey dealers' websites then it's quite common to see Rolex listed first and foremost.

    Quote Originally Posted by lasz View Post
    they really do give the impression that all of their models are intensely popular and that people are crawling over one another to get hold of them
    And this is what ensures that the grey dealers can sell the most popular and most desirable Rolex models at higher than RRP. E.g. DSSD Blue at £11,000+.

    Quote Originally Posted by lasz View Post
    has there been a consensus reached about the new Air King?
    It still seems to be divisive from what I can see.
    Last edited by markrlondon; 15th April 2017 at 01:01. Reason: Fixed typo

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