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Thread: Formula 1 2017

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  1. #1

    Formula 1 2017

    I would like to start with a request.

    The reason I decided to take a break from contributing to last year's Formula 1 thread was the trolling and thread spoiling by two factions whose involvement makes any thread on Formula 1 descend into a tragic mess of sniping and name-calling.

    These factions are the semi-literate followers of MotoGP who keep popping up and telling everybody that Formula 1 is boring, and the tedious Lewis Hamilton fanboys, whose principal contribution is to aim childish insults at others.

    I would be the first to admit that alternative forms of motor sport can be very exciting to watch, and that Lewis Hamilton is an excellent racing driver, particularly when he's in a car with a tangible performance advantage.

    Should anybody wish to start a thread extolling the virtues of MotoGP (which is an entirely different sport to Formula 1) or Lewis Hamilton, the facility is available to you. Please don't spoil a thread about the virtues, problems or technicalities of Formula 1 though. If you have something relevant to contribute, great. Let's have an open discussion about Formula 1 - there are enough of us on here who enjoy the sport for the racing, the personalities and the technical challenge to be able to enjoy the changes that the 2017 season will undoubtedly bring.

    I'll post a couple of updates on driver and personnel changes and the likely impact of the new technical regulations later.

  2. #2
    Master
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    Cool

    Look forward to your informative posts again.

  3. #3
    Journeyman
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    Well said that man...

    I'm a big Formula 1 fan and have been for many years... it's not perfect but it's still good fun. So much discussion of Formula 1 recently (not on here, pretty much everywhere) has been about it being boring, not enough happening, this person is lucky, that person is unlucky etc. and it spoils talking about it for me.

    I've been to a few Grand Prix, a Moto GP race, several rally stages and to a crazy American event called the World of Outlaws, thoroughly enjoyed the lot.

    Looking forward to the 2017 season and seeing what impact the driver changes and new rules will have!

  4. #4
    Grand Master JasonM's Avatar
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    Nice one Ian, you were missed.
    I read this the other day, could get interesting if the top 2 have to redesign this late in the day.

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/127615
    Cheers..
    Jase

  5. #5
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    Many moons ago a journalist I know interviewed Hamilton, who mentioned how he wasn't really interested in F1 and was weighing up the possibility of racing in Moto GP instead. Naturally none of it made it past the PR people who'd set up the interview, much to the disappointment of the journalist, who thought he was onto a big scoop.

    I'm hoping the new rules make the racing interesting enough to keep my attention this year. While I appreciate the minutiae of rule changes, driver swaps, rule transgressions and so on can be interesting, as someone who's progressively lost interest in F1 over the last few years the actual racing is all I really want to see. A couple of years ago I would watch the 10-minute highlights on the BBC website but that stopped with Channel 4's involvement. I'll give it a go again and will see how it all goes, and will try not to mention Hamilton or Moto GP. Again.
    "A man of little significance"

  6. #6
    Thanks, Jase. That saves me having to attempt to explain the grenade lobbed into the FIA bunker by Ferrari - basically, for anybody who doesn't want to trawl through the entire Autosport article, Red Bull and Mercedes are using hydraulics to maintain the car as level as possible in order to maximise the aerodynamic downforce. Ferrari have queried this with Charle Whiting, as it pushes the outer extremities of the rules over what the suspension is allowed to do, namely to separate the body of the car from the track undulations, and is essentially using the suspension to actively optimise downforce.

    On to the personnel changes. it's not all about the drivers.

    Nico Rosberg probably surprised members of his immediate family when, five days after clinching the 2016 title, he announced his retirement. This must have come as a shock to the management of the Mercedes team, who were under the impression, supported by signed documents, that he had committed to another two seasons with them.

    Barely had the shockwaves spread from Brackley than speculation commenced as to his likely replacement, with Pascal Wehrlein as the front runner, given the fact that he is a Mercedes Junior driver. However, Mercedes may have felt that with only limited experience at the rear of the field, albeit with some distinction, Wehrlein wasn't yet ready for a full-on Championship assault. Formula 1 thrives on speculation, and there has been much to speculate about, but the mists are beginning to clear and through the murk has emerged Valtteri Bottas. The more you think about this, the more logical a choice he becomes. He ticks the "Experience" box, he's pretty much unflappable and unlikely to create waves within the team. An ideal candidate for the role which he will be asked to perform, specifically as back-up to Hamilton and capable of winning races should the need and opportunity arise, while maximising Constructors' Championship points.

    But any move of Bottas from Williams creates a sizeable vacuum at Grove. Williams are sponsored by Martini, who, for advertising and promotional purposes require a driver of at least 25 years of age. With Bottas gone, they are left with Lance Stroll, who fails the age criteria, although on the other hand he arrived at Williams with $20m of his father's fortune. So Williams turned to Felipe Massa, who easily fulfils the age criteria, and apparently didn't actually want to retire in the first place. The deal with Massa has yet to be completed, but seems to satisfy all parties.

    Current rumour has Williams turning down an offer from Mercedes for the services of Bottas in exchange for a half-price engine deal for 2017, and Williams playing hardball and insisting on their engines for free - this is believed to be worth c. €17m.

    The off-season rumour mill seems to revolve entirely around Williams, with Pat Symonds deciding to retire and his likely replacement touted as Paddy Lowe, who's contract at Mercedes finished at the end of 2016. Lowe's likely replacement at Mercedes is James Allison, who left Ferrari during the 2016 campaign following the sudden death of his wife.

    After the moves outlined above, the rest of the changes seem unimportant somehow. Driver-wise, Wehrlein has now joined Sauber alongside Marcus Ericsson, leaving Felipe Nasr temporarily under-employed and likely to end up at Manor. Nico Hulkenburg signed for Renault several months ago, where he will be joined by Jolyon Palmer, who had a tentative start to 2016 but improved as the season unfolded. Kevin Magnussen moves to Haas, alongside Romain Grosjean, clearly undeterred by his brake-related problems of last year.

    At McLaren, Jenson Button's widely-predicted retirement left the door open for Stoffel Vandoorne. Honda need to up their game if Fernando Alonso's talents aren't to be squandered again in 2017, although the team must be on the back foot after the night of the long knives which saw Ron Dennis ousted by his fellow shareholders, including his former close friend and long-term ally Mansour Ojjeh.

    Force India punched well above their weight last year and were rewarded with 4th in the Constructors' Championship, and the increased budget which comes with it. Even so, it's going to require another loaves-and-fishes performance in 2017 if they are to continue to snap at the heels of the "big three". Esteban Ocon and his Mercedes backing will be welcome, and Sergio Perez showed in 2016 that he's the real deal.

    There are no changes at Red Bull, Ferrari or Toro Rosso, and at the time of writing the only empty seats are at Manor. Felipe Nasr and his Banco di Brasil backing seem destined for one, while Rio Haryanto was favourite for the other, although I believe that there may be issues with his sponsorship which are yet to be resolved.

    More later.

  7. #7
    Master tiny73's Avatar
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    Welcome back Backward point, your insight was sorely missed last year, hopefully the main protagonists will leave this thread alone as has been repeatedly requested of them (hoping I'm not one of them... )

    Regarding the suspension clarification from Ferrari and the subsequent TD from Charlie Whiting, Mercedes claim this will have no impact on the W08 development and indeed their pace after the banning of FRIC last year suggests that they have got a handle on the suspension elements.

    The rumours are that Red Bull will be more affected since their trick heave spring element thing (I've read countless articles on this and still only have a limited understanding of what it actually does save for keeping the car level through corners to maintain a stable aero platform) allows them to run their huge rake and massively aids their full aero package.

    Should be be a good season, only 80 or so days to go .

  8. #8
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    Please don't spoil a thread about the virtues, problems or technicalities of Formula 1
    Well said. Might I also request that people do not respond to the trolls?

  9. #9
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    I would like to start with a request...Please don't spoil a thread about the virtues, problems or technicalities of Formula 1 though...
    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    Well said. Might I also request that people do not respond to the trolls?
    Those that cannot comply might post in Formula 1 2017, instead.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Those that cannot comply might post in Formula 1 2017, instead.
    Bob, I'm so sorry - I didn't even see this. In my defence, it's become well-hidden.

    Perhaps the title could be changed to "Formula 1 2017 whinge, moan and rant thread"?

  11. #11
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    Bob, I'm so sorry - I didn't even see this. In my defence, it's become well-hidden.

    Perhaps the title could be changed to "Formula 1 2017 whinge, moan and rant thread"?
    No problem...and no apology necessary. Let's hope that one of them will stay on topic.

  12. #12
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    It's going to be an interesting season, will Mercedes manage to maintain their dominant position in light of the rule changes?

    My guess is yes but it will be somewhat closer than previous seasons.

  13. #13
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Formula 1 2017

    It's a tricky one!

    If the suspension is to isolate the body of the car from the track undulations then surely the aim is to maintain the optimum ride height and stance for aerodynamic performance. The hydraulic system just helps to improve the suspension's performance.

  14. #14
    Master Reeny's Avatar
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    There will be an old rule banning active suspension - remember the 1992 Willams / Mansell combination.

    From reading the posts above, the new system can mimic active suspension.
    And because Ferrari can't get theirs to work properly - they want it banned.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeny View Post
    There will be an old rule banning active suspension - remember the 1992 Willams / Mansell combination.

    From reading the posts above, the new system can mimic active suspension.
    And because Ferrari can't get theirs to work properly - they want it banned.
    I suspect that you're right. It's a whole new rabbit-hole, and the FIA might consider that the development of these systems will further distance the "haves" from the "have nots". Anything which involves the teams spending vast amounts of money developing a means to shave a tenth of a second from their lap times has been received with displeasure by the FIA - stalling the rear wing by means of the so-called "F-duct", active suspension, dual chassis etc. will always benefit the bigger teams and detract from the "spectacle". The problem is that unless the FIA act now to either ban or allow the hydraulic heave-springs, nobody knows whether to try to develop their own system or not.

    How, for instance, would the likes of Force India or Sauber find the resources to develop active hydraulic heave-springs? There's a yawning chasm between them and the "big three" as it is.

  16. #16
    Technical changes for 2017.

    The cars will be bigger, and will look more aggressive thanks to swept-back front wings and a rearward-canted (and slightly larger and lower) rear wing.

    But the biggest change is that the diffuser, which creates downforce using the underbody at the rear of the car to create a venturi, will be much larger than before. The intention is to use the underbody to create a greater proportion of the total downforce, thereby limiting the effect of turbulent air from following another car. DRS remains.

    There is some concern that this, coupled with wider tyres, will shorten braking areas, to the detriment of overtaking. Nobody knows whether this will happen until the season gets under way.

    The cars will be wider overall, which will alter the airflow around the sidepods and brake ducting, the latter in particular having been an area of intensive development in recent seasons.

    Power unit development will no longer be subject to the "token" system, and manufacturers will be able to develop their engines and energy recovery/deployment systems with fewer restraints. Drivers will still be restricted to how many of the "component" parts are available for the season, but the rules have been changed to prevent "stockpiling" components as Mercedes did with Lewis Hamilton at Spa. Only the final "new" component will be penalised immediately, with other grid penalties carried forward.

    Pirelli have developed the new tyres as best they can, using cars from Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari modified to try to produce the downforce levels anticipated from the new cars. The current system of having three compounds available at each race, with teams making their choices well in advance of the race weekend remains, although Pirelli will decide which compounds will be used for the first five races. Paul Hembury of Pirelli has stated that the regulation changes will cost Pirelli "tens of million pounds" in development and additional freight costs.

    The "Halo" cockpit protection device does not become mandatory until 2018.

    At the moment, the only confirmed car launches are Mercedes at Silverstone on 23 February and Ferrari at Fiorano on 24 February. The first of two pre-season tests starts at Barcelona on 27 February.

  17. #17
    Another article on the hydraulic heave-spring discussion:

    http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/op...l&utm_content=

  18. #18
    Grand Master AlphaOmega's Avatar
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    Glad you're back on point for this, BP.

    One day I may rekindle the love I used to have for F1. Perhaps it will be this year.

  19. #19
    Master tiny73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    It's a tricky one!

    If the suspension is to isolate the body of the car from the track undulations then surely the aim is to maintain the optimum ride height and stance for aerodynamic performance. The hydraulic system just helps to improve the suspension's performance.
    It is indeed a tricky one. Arguably the suspension trickery keeps the the car flatter through the corner keeping more of the tyre in contact with the tarmac and thus providing more mechanical grip. However, this has the secondary benefit of keeping a car flat through the corner and thus more predictable airflow allowing further increased cornering speed through aerodynamic grip (if I'm understanding the general principle correctly). Can the teams argue that the primary benefit is an increase in mechanical grip?

    So so the question is, do the teams that "have" risk wasted development up to Australia following the inevitable challenge from numerous teams, or do they move in a "legal" direction? The rumours are that Red Bull have something revolutionary in their design that will invariably be aided by the trick suspension elements.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by tiny73 View Post
    It is indeed a tricky one. Arguably the suspension trickery keeps the the car flatter through the corner keeping more of the tyre in contact with the tarmac and thus providing more mechanical grip. However, this has the secondary benefit of keeping a car flat through the corner and thus more predictable airflow allowing further increased cornering speed through aerodynamic grip (if I'm understanding the general principle correctly). Can the teams argue that the primary benefit is an increase in mechanical grip?

    So so the question is, do the teams that "have" risk wasted development up to Australia following the inevitable challenge from numerous teams, or do they move in a "legal" direction? The rumours are that Red Bull have something revolutionary in their design that will invariably be aided by the trick suspension elements.
    I believe that the clue is in the ever-increasing "rake" of the Red Bull. The hydraulics may, I understand, be used to reduce the rake (and co-incidentally the drag) of the car at speed. And, rumour has it, Red Bull have also found a means to stall the rear wing at speed. Which is beneficial if you're a little short of power, as it reduces the drag still further, to the benefit of top speed.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    And, rumour has it, Red Bull have also found a means to stall the rear wing at speed. Which is beneficial if you're a little short of power, as it reduces the drag still further, to the benefit of top speed.
    Is this technically similar to the F-duct? Or in Ferrari's case, one handed driving...
    Last edited by StackH; 5th January 2017 at 16:43.

  22. #22
    The new season can't come soon enough for me, really looking forward to it.

    It's a shame that Nico retired when he did, with Jenson leaving the sport loosing another Driver's Champion isn't ideal, however if it gives Bottas the chance that Williams are unlikely to provide that may be sufficient recompense. I'm very interested in how the two drivers will compare, Lewis vs Valteri could be quite exciting, and has already been said Valteri has proven himself to be a fast and steady hand.
    I'm concerned that the possible decrease in braking distances coupled with wider cars will be at the detriment to overtaking in the braking zones, yet this could be balanced out with the less disruptive wake created by the car in front allowing for easier nose to tail action around the longer, faster bends where the previous chassis lost a percentage of stability. Overtaking whilst braking may be more difficult, though there may be more opportunities to try to do so.
    There's always the chance that one of the teams will pull something unique out of the bag and make something of the new regulations that others haven't found, some twist or legal loophole unseen by their rivals. Merc have got to be the favourites for the '17 titles simply due to their momentum and (I'd guess) being able to apply more R&D resources at an earlier stage than other teams once they'd calculated that '16 was in the bag - roll on Melbourne!

  23. #23
    Craftsman Integrale's Avatar
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    Formula 1 2017

    Watch out for Renault this year.

    They had a stealth one make series mule running last year which was essentially running the "current engine and tyres" with a GT body. No mention of the series or a GT challenge emerging. Was it a free year of testing for 2017??

  24. #24
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Integrale View Post
    Watch out for Renault this year.

    They had a stealth one make series mule running last year which was essentially running the "current engine and tyres" with a GT body. No mention of the series or a GT challenge emerging. Was it a free year of testing for 2017??
    Interesting.

    I do wonder where Ferrari and Mercedes are going TBH - Red Bull will be very strong this season and a couple of driver shuffles will see the dynamics change significantly.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Integrale View Post
    Watch out for Renault this year.

    They had a stealth one make series mule running last year which was essentially running the "current engine and tyres" with a GT body. No mention of the series or a GT challenge emerging. Was it a free year of testing for 2017??
    Do you have a link for this? I would have thought that any form of "stealth" testing would be severely frowned upon. "Current engine and tyres"? As in 2016 spec? Wouldn't have thought they'd gain much info for 2017 considering the raft of changes to the regulations. Where would they get 2017 spec tyres from anyway? Certainly not Pirelli!

  26. #26
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    So is this a case of Ferrari struggling with their development, so deciding to throw a spanner in the works of the other teams?

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    So is this a case of Ferrari struggling with their development, so deciding to throw a spanner in the works of the other teams?
    It might be. Or it might not. You never know with F1!

  28. #28
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    I must say I am really looking forward to seeing the new cars perform, I read somewhere that lap times are likely to come down by 3-5 seconds on some tracks.

    Plus I am interested to see Max and Danny Compete to become team number one.

    Any news on the German GP - is it still off?

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  29. #29
    Craftsman cinnabull's Avatar
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    I am also a keen F1 follower. Myself and one of my sons went to Singapore last year for the race, its the second time we have been and it was mind blowing, Queen was an added bonus. We have also done Kuala Lumpur, Abu Dhabi and Monaco.

    I am not so well up on all the technicalities as some of the learned posters above who clearly have a much better understanding of these matters than me. However, I can say this. I have heard that lots of people have complained about the latest engines being a fair bit quieter. Now, the first time we went to Singapore was actually the last year of the 'old' engine. We we in the Connaught Grandstand, which is basically at the end of a long straight and on a 90degree right hand bend. We were pretty close to the track, maybe aroun 20 or 30 m away. When the cars came down the straight and braked to take the corner, the backfiring and actual noise was, to me, uncomfortable. I noticed many folk around me with ear plugs, jeez I wish I had some. The next year we went to Sepang, again a similar distance from the track, and for me personally, it was a much more enjoyable experience. They were still noisy, not like the prev year, but bearable. You could have a conversation with the person next to you allbeit having to shout.

    Another thing I will throw out for discussion is the penalty system. I like to think there is really 2 championships going on, the Constructors and the Drivers. Now, I find it unfair that when an engine, gearbox or whatever is replaced that is over the quota, the driver gets punished. I think the constructors, say Merc, Ferrari or whoever, should cop this, not the driver. He is being, in my mind, unfairly punished for the manufacturers possible shortcoming in reliability. I have seen arguments that a driver may be 'overstressing' an engine, but lets face it, he is paid to press the go pedal as hard as he can for as long as he can, period. The manufacturer should be given a deduction of sorts for this not the driver. Clearly, flip side, if the driver cocks up and causes an incident, then he should cop the punishment and not the constructor. I dont know how this could be implemented, but I'm sure someone a lot smarter than me can devise a working system.

    Hey and heres another. Last year I think it was, when the preliminary fixtures were announced, Malaysia and Singapore were within a week of each other. Great I thought, for a 10 day break I can take in 2 F1's is nice places. The cost to get from Singapore to KL isnt massive. Then they shifted them 2 weeks apart, meaning its no longer a 10 day jaunt. The actual cost of staying in either KL or Singapore isnt to be sniffed at. Now we hear then Malaysia may be axed due to falling crowds. I would suggest far more Europeand would be tempted to do both if they were 1 week apart, but 2 weeks, no way. And Singapore will allways win over KL.

    Anyways, I will follow this thread with interest. I also follow Moto GP and WSBK, but havent been to a bike race for years. Who knows, with the ever increasing cost of going to an F1 event, I may look into the bikes again.

    Stuart

  30. #30
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    You can’t believe how welcome t is to read this thread, Ian.

    As you know, I packed up posting into these threads some 2+ years ago because it had gotten quite silly and tribal (actually just like most F1 fora) so a return to basics would be most welcome – almost like 2009 again when for all the world it seemed like there were only a few F1 fans on TZ-UK and we were trying to educate the masses!

    Anyway lots of water under the bridge, so a fresh start (I believe the expression is “reboot” if you are "down with the kids" - which I'm definitely not) is very much my cup of tea.

    The engineering really floats my boat, so all-new technical regs will be very interesting, plus the youngsters are bringing a new dimension to the sport (whatever you may think of the characters) actually on the track itself – so perhaps we are witnessing a real changing of the guard.

    Anyway, back to the point, thanks for revitalising my interest in posting here again!

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by cinnabull View Post

    Another thing I will throw out for discussion is the penalty system. I like to think there is really 2 championships going on, the Constructors and the Drivers. Now, I find it unfair that when an engine, gearbox or whatever is replaced that is over the quota, the driver gets punished. I think the constructors, say Merc, Ferrari or whoever, should cop this, not the driver. He is being, in my mind, unfairly punished for the manufacturers possible shortcoming in reliability. I have seen arguments that a driver may be 'overstressing' an engine, but lets face it, he is paid to press the go pedal as hard as he can for as long as he can, period. The manufacturer should be given a deduction of sorts for this not the driver. Clearly, flip side, if the driver cocks up and causes an incident, then he should cop the punishment and not the constructor. I dont know how this could be implemented, but I'm sure someone a lot smarter than me can devise a working system.



    Stuart
    I certainly understand where you're coming from though I see it differently. Despite having two Championships the drivers are just as much team members as their crews, engineers, tea ladies etc. It is, ultimately, a team sport - if one goes down, they all go down.

  32. #32
    Craftsman cinnabull's Avatar
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    I think I read somewhere that Honda's 2017 engine is pretty much a new design. Although I am a merc supporter, I would like to see a bit more of a threat coming from other teams.

    TBH I was surprised at how poor the Honda power unit performed last year, because I always thought that once HRC turned their mind to something, budgets went straight out of the window. Their R&D department was always top notch, yet they couldnt seem to get the last engine right.

    Maybe, just maybe, this years model will be the one they have been planning for a few years and the last years one was just a stop gap till they unleash the beast,

    Stuart


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  33. #33
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    ^^^^^ God I hope you are right. I'm a McLaren fan and it's heartbreaking seeing them so far down the field.

  34. #34
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    Are Honda starting this new engine from scratch or is it just the turbo layout that has changed?

  35. #35
    Craftsman cinnabull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James_ View Post
    Are Honda starting this new engine from scratch or is it just the turbo layout that has changed?
    I'm not 100% sure what it is. I found the article on my phones Sky Sports app under F1 a few days

    http://www.skysports.com/share/10719864

    It suggests that for 2017 they will have a 'completely restructured engine'. What that means I'm unsure, maybe a few tweaks on the original powerplant, or hopefully a total new lump which isnt a GP2 engine


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  36. #36
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    Hmm so starting from scratch... another few years of development ahead then. There's no reason to think Honda can leap ahead of the top 3 teams with a new engine with no testing on it. I think the engine formula will change before Honda can beat Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes and maybe one other team. Hope I'm wrong. There's nothing more cool than watching McLaren develop during the season and I hope Honda give them a decent engine to allow that.


    Quote Originally Posted by cinnabull View Post
    I'm not 100% sure what it is. I found the article on my phones Sky Sports app under F1 a few days

    http://www.skysports.com/share/10719864

    It suggests that for 2017 they will have a 'completely restructured engine'. What that means I'm unsure, maybe a few tweaks on the original powerplant, or hopefully a total new lump which isnt a GP2 engine


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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cinnabull View Post
    I'm not 100% sure what it is. I found the article on my phones Sky Sports app under F1 a few days

    http://www.skysports.com/share/10719864

    It suggests that for 2017 they will have a 'completely restructured engine'. What that means I'm unsure, maybe a few tweaks on the original powerplant, or hopefully a total new lump which isnt a GP2 engine


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    As I understand it McLaren forced Honda to design an engine that was really small to fit a strict aero package, this caused a lot of the issues in 2015 with reliability, Honda redesigned the engine in 2016 but were still heavily restricted on the size of the engine to accommodate the aerodynamics. Since the regulation changes come into effect Honda are free to expand the size of the engine and McLaren will build the aero around the new design engine. I do not think that it will be a complete redesign but a chance to build on the existing engine but without so many restrictions on the size to accommodate the size zero form that McLaren enforced. I think we might see a big step in the Honda this year and aware they are again looking for more customers in the future. if they have a good year this year which I hope they do, then I see them gaining in popularity. I just wish that Button was around to be benefit as I do not see him returning now.

  38. #38
    Craftsman cinnabull's Avatar
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    Mmm, well let me throw something out there. Honda came in with little time to prepare and develop. What if the 2017 engine is the one they have been throwing all the yen at behind closed doors for quite a few years. I mean, why would Alonso stay, he's a competitor and wants to win, and make no mistake, if Merc wanted him they would have bought his contract. Perhaps he has had someone give him a heads up about the 'new' engine. Pure speculation and wishful thinking perhaps, but what if ??

    Stuart


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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by cinnabull View Post
    Mmm, well let me throw something out there. Honda came in with little time to prepare and develop. What if the 2017 engine is the one they have been throwing all the yen at behind closed doors for quite a few years. I mean, why would Alonso stay, he's a competitor and wants to win, and make no mistake, if Merc wanted him they would have bought his contract. Perhaps he has had someone give him a heads up about the 'new' engine. Pure speculation and wishful thinking perhaps, but what if ??

    Stuart


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    While it's a nice thought, I highly doubt it. It costs tens of millions to develop an F1 engine, I really can't see Honda bringing out a stopgap engine while working on a new one for 2017. After all, they started development on the current (last season) engine a whole year before they came into F1.

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    I'm still pessimistic about Honda. Even in full speculaion mode I can't put the pieces together to see a successful outcome in the short term. The only positive I can find in Honda is that they finished 2nd in the constructors championship in 2004 with BAR. This was near the end of the V10 era against a dominant Ferrari. This shows that they do have the ability to catch up and I dare say McLaren can build a better car than BAR, so in the long term it could be successful.



    Quote Originally Posted by cinnabull View Post
    Mmm, well let me throw something out there. Honda came in with little time to prepare and develop. What if the 2017 engine is the one they have been throwing all the yen at behind closed doors for quite a few years. I mean, why would Alonso stay, he's a competitor and wants to win, and make no mistake, if Merc wanted him they would have bought his contract. Perhaps he has had someone give him a heads up about the 'new' engine. Pure speculation and wishful thinking perhaps, but what if ??

    Stuart


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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by James_ View Post
    I'm still pessimistic about Honda. Even in full speculaion mode I can't put the pieces together to see a successful outcome in the short term. The only positive I can find in Honda is that they finished 2nd in the constructors championship in 2004 with BAR. This was near the end of the V10 era against a dominant Ferrari. This shows that they do have the ability to catch up and I dare say McLaren can build a better car than BAR, so in the long term it could be successful.
    The Brawn of 2009 was basically just rebadged Hondas. What would have happened if they hadn't quit the sport in 2008, we might have seen a few years when they dominated.

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    I think the Brawn success was mostly down to the Mercedes engine. The only good thing about that chassis was the sneaky double diffuser. The odds that the Honda engine would have been as good as the Mercedes are not good.


    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    The Brawn of 2009 was basically just rebadged Hondas. What would have happened if they hadn't quit the sport in 2008, we might have seen a few years when they dominated.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by James_ View Post
    I think the Brawn success was mostly down to the Mercedes engine. The only good thing about that chassis was the sneaky double diffuser. The odds that the Honda engine would have been as good as the Mercedes are not good.
    The Brawn was designed with the Honda Specification engine and when it was pulled at last minute they had to shoehorn the Mercedes in to the chassis. If they had the Honda engine it was designed for and it was a good engine then there was a chance they would have been even more dominant. However we will never know if the Honda would have done as well as the Merc engine but we do know how good the double defuser was.

  44. #44
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    I'm wondering why the supposed Bottas to merc switch is taking so long. I know there will be contract negotiations, but really, at that level i would think its relatively clear, as all the parties know the others and their capabilities. Should be just a case of hey wanna drive this car for £x yes or no?? SIMPLES. Unless there are other things stirring, i mean, who wouldnt want to see what Button could do in a merc. Bottas is a seasoned F1 driver, but I cant help thinking he'd always be a yes man to the merc hierarchy, and I dont see him as a long term prospect, or even first second or third choice if the field was open.

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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    I would like to start with a request.

    The reason I decided to take a break from contributing to last year's Formula 1 thread was the trolling and thread spoiling by two factions whose involvement makes any thread on Formula 1 descend into a tragic mess of sniping and name-calling.

    These factions are the semi-literate followers of MotoGP who keep popping up and telling everybody that Formula 1 is boring, and the tedious Lewis Hamilton fanboys, whose principal contribution is to aim childish insults at others.

    I would be the first to admit that alternative forms of motor sport can be very exciting to watch, and that Lewis Hamilton is an excellent racing driver, particularly when he's in a car with a tangible performance advantage.

    Should anybody wish to start a thread extolling the virtues of MotoGP (which is an entirely different sport to Formula 1) or Lewis Hamilton, the facility is available to you. Please don't spoil a thread about the virtues, problems or technicalities of Formula 1 though. If you have something relevant to contribute, great. Let's have an open discussion about Formula 1 - there are enough of us on here who enjoy the sport for the racing, the personalities and the technical challenge to be able to enjoy the changes that the 2017 season will undoubtedly bring.

    I'll post a couple of updates on driver and personnel changes and the likely impact of the new technical regulations later.
    I started a Moto GP thread last 2 years... I also contributed on the 2016 thread and sometimes it does spill over especially when coming up with ideas of how to make it more exciting which is what many motorsports forums discuss.

    I didn't realise I or others who posted on F1 2016 and on the Moto thread were semi-literate ....there was very little slagging off of others or F1 itself... and most comments were in good humour and taken as such.....

    Won't make any difference to any one I'm sure whether I post on an F1 thread here but I will start another Moto GP one and leave you to it as obviously caused offence and strife.....
    Will watch F1 as usual but no bother to avoid posting and discussing....shame....
    Last edited by lordloz; 11th January 2017 at 18:31.

  46. #46
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    The two threads aren't mutually exclusive.

    As a fan of both F1 and Moto GP, I intend to post on both.

    But then I'm just a rebel!

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    The two threads aren't mutually exclusive.

    As a fan of both F1 and Moto GP, I intend to post on both.

    But then I'm just a rebel!
    Indeed - I do not understand the hissy fit TBH.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Last edited by Chris_in_the_UK; 13th January 2017 at 01:21. Reason: Double typo thing
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    Zanardi says the same as I wrote earlier in the 2016 thread:

    http://en.f1i.com/news/86247-zanardi...-great-f1.html

    but alas; we will see.

    Again no winter tests at Jerez this year so I can't go see in person :-(
    Ah well, have been for several years so can't complain.

  49. #49
    Much as I would love to see another Grand Prix at Donington, I can't imagine that it will happen.

    MSV have done a good job at the circuits that they operate, but bringing Donington up to Grand Prix specification would require a massive investment in order to fund a loss-making event, something that MSV and the Wheatcroft Trust would probably manage to control their enthusiasm for. Of course, with the rumour that Silverstone might invoke the break clause in their contract and forego the opportunity to lose money in 2019, there is speculation that other circuits might step up, although only Donington and Rockingham* are believed to be feasible, albeit with considerable investment required.

    The issue of hosting fees and their contractural increases is near the top of the agenda for Liberty Media, who are reported to be concerned that the traditional European venues are teetering on the brink, and cannot afford to continue to host Grands Prix. Hopefully, something will be done soon - Bernie's worst nightmare almost became reality a few years ago, when the Australian Grand Prix promoter got together with other promoters to form an allegiance, but this seems to have withered and died, sadly.


    *Mr Fox will be along shortly to present the case for Brands Hatch.

  50. #50
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    *Mr Fox will be along shortly to present the case for Brands Hatch.
    Are you out of your mind?! Have you seen what they started doing to Donington trying to make the environs compliant with F1's demands? They'd wreck Brands. I want to see WEC at Brands and not lost going round the bland, empty concrete mess that is Silverstone, with it's 73 corners rammed in to provide more TV camera positions for slow motion shots of cars, line astern, braking into corners. Silverstone is like a ghost town for the WEC weekend, Brands would be packed to the rafters.

    Sportscars at Brands:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81hSGCLrXUs
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