MPs thinking about letting Learner Drivers on Motorways..

[GrahamB]

Coppers could always call a persons boss and check they were on their way to/from work I guess. I’m sure I’ve read that other countries have a curfew system so there must be a workable solution. It’s only like them calling a drivers insurance company by the side of the road and wouldn’t take long. It’s not like many of the people being stopped by plod will be shift workers anyway.

According to the governments web site, the Pass Plus thing includes the training on a motorway but not currently a test hence my suggestion of a test.

I'd even go so far to suggest a graduated licence system (a kind of equivalent of power restriction for bikes) for new passers too but I’m probably in a minority on that one….

The system would be workable but, the difference from insurance is that the police only have to call the company very rarely as details of insurance are held on databases and they police know if the car is insured or not before they go to the bother of stopping them. Now heaven forbid that the police would use a curfew for younger drivers as an excuse to stop people without a good reason, it may well happen. The police would not know where the young person was going before they stopped them, then the requirement to contact the employer and if they could not get the appropriate person to verify there would have to be a visit to the police station to hand in documentation at a later date. Doable but, not straight forward in terms of time or systems.I think you'll find that there are quite a few, young, shift workers, that would be liable to being pulled.

Pass Plus seems like a good idea, especially with a test.

The Power restrictions would be a harder one to handle, while bikes are seen as personal and seldom shared with other family members cars are family transportation. How do you handle the change in power requirements for a 17 year old just passed their test possibly driving Mum's car or in my case my children using my company car (they were insured to do so)? It's just far more difficult with a car than on a bike.

Maybe the answer is to adopt the system used in Norway where night driving, first aid and other skills are a requirement before you get issued a driving license

[Gyp]

The Power restrictions would be a harder one to handle, while bikes are seen as personal and seldom shared with other family members cars are family transportation. How do you handle the change in power requirements for a 17 year old just passed their test possibly driving Mum's car or in my case my children using my company car (they were insured to do so)? It's just far more difficult with a car than on a bike.

Err, it's exactly the same - the shared vehicle would have to be limited to the licence of the most restricted driver.

If I want to share a bike with my son (I do), it has to be under 125cc. If mum and dad want to share the car with the 17 year old, then mum and dad need to choose a car that is suitable for a 17 year old.

Mum and dad might just discover that driving a VW UP! isn't actually that bad :-)

[GrahamB]

Err, it's exactly the same - the shared vehicle would have to be limited to the licence of the most restricted driver.

If I want to share a bike with my son (I do), it has to be under 125cc. If mum and dad want to share the car with the 17 year old, then mum and dad need to choose a car that is suitable for a 17 year old.

Mum and dad might just discover that driving a VW UP! isn't actually that bad :-)

Actually the bike does not have to be under 125cc, a learner can legally ride any capacity they want, even a Hyabusa as long as the power restrictions are in place, cubic capacity was removed from the limitations due to the manufacturers deciding to get round the rules by building the fasted 250cc they could and it never cut down on deaths of young riders.

As the power restrictions would not be visible from the exterior how do you suggest that the police spot a 17 year old driving a vehicle that is not restricted? It would lead to many people being harassed on a regular basis and many people will remember the Search under Suspicion laws that were used by the Police to bug the living daylights out of a certain group of the general public!

Oh the VW UP, tried one, hated it and certainly could not get the kit I need for my job in the boot. The way things are going these days I'm heading for a transit van limited to the power of a pushbike!

[Gyp]

Actually the bike does not have to be under 125cc, a learner can legally ride any capacity they want, even a Hyabusa as long as the power restrictions are in place, cubic capacity was removed from the limitations due to the manufacturers deciding to get round the rules by building the fasted 250cc they could and it never cut down on deaths of young riders.

I think you're a couple of generations behind the regulations; things have changed a lot in the last few years.

As the power restrictions would not be visible from the exterior how do you suggest that the police spot a 17 year old driving a vehicle that is not restricted? It would lead to many people being harassed on a regular basis and many people will remember the Search under Suspicion laws that were used by the Police to bug the living daylights out of a certain group of the general public!

More likely come down to whether they are insured or not and the implications of driving without insurance

[gog]

The system would be workable but, the difference from insurance is that the police only have to call the company very rarely as details of insurance are held on databases and they police know if the car is insured or not before they go to the bother of stopping them. Now heaven forbid that the police would use a curfew for younger drivers as an excuse to stop people without a good reason, it may well happen. The police would not know where the young person was going before they stopped them, then the requirement to contact the employer and if they could not get the appropriate person to verify there would have to be a visit to the police station to hand in documentation at a later date. Doable but, not straight forward in terms of time or systems.I think you'll find that there are quite a few, young, shift workers, that would be liable to being pulled.

Pass Plus seems like a good idea, especially with a test.

The Power restrictions would be a harder one to handle, while bikes are seen as personal and seldom shared with other family members cars are family transportation. How do you handle the change in power requirements for a 17 year old just passed their test possibly driving Mum's car or in my case my children using my company car (they were insured to do so)? It's just far more difficult with a car than on a bike.

Maybe the answer is to adopt the system used in Norway where night driving, first aid and other skills are a requirement before you get issued a driving license

Stopping youngsters driving late at night would be nothing new. When I was a teenager I could almost guarantee getting pulled once or twice a week when driving home from a girlfriends house. As long as it didn’t take all night and plod wasn’t being too ‘up themselves’ it didn’t bother me too much. Very occasionally they were tossers looking for an argument though….

This was the Met Traffic (South East London) mostly and I had a couple of blue cars for several years so they may have also just been playing snooker sometimes which I’m told was common when they got bored on the night shift. The same source (a traffic inspector whose photocopier I fixed occasionally and for whom some of the buggers stopping me worked for!) also advised that “Can I just take a note of your shoulder number please officer?” would always make the stop very quick unless I really was doing something wrong. I never was though since my driving licence has always been very precious to me…..

A quick Google about bike restrictions tells me that either throttle stops or inlet reducers are used and neither of these would be visible at the side of the road. The system (plod, insurance) seems to be handling those OK so invisible systems fitted to a car should be a similar experience.

Night driving is in Pass Plus but I agree first aid training would be a good addition.

[GrahamB]

I think you're a couple of generations behind the regulations; things have changed a lot in the last few years.

Doesn't it depend on age and scheme you choose? A or A2 don't mention capacity while A1 does,

More likely come down to whether they are insured or not and the implications of driving without insurance

You're right about the insurance though and people's willingness to ignore insurance but, I think that's a different question. There's still no easy way to tell at the roadside if the bike is restricted or not.

[pingu]

Some interesting ideas.

I must disagree that dual carriageways give motorway driving experience as they are nothing alike.

Would be good to see more restrictions, you can't drive on roads you have no training on until x years of experience with no accidents or convictions or you have passed a specific test for motorways. Alternatively ensure that every driver has additional training after passing a test and being made a probationer.

Some other things that have been proposed is 120 hours minimum training which in my view is excessive. Thinking about 1 hour a week that's over 2 years to learn to drive and some poeple pick it up better than others. Not sure if there is an average duration, prbably a statistic somewhere but set a minimum realistically would be 20 hours.

[GrahamB]

Stopping youngsters driving late at night would be nothing new. When I was a teenager I could almost guarantee getting pulled once or twice a week when driving home from a girlfriends house. As long as it didn’t take all night and plod wasn’t being too ‘up themselves’ it didn’t bother me too much. Very occasionally they were tossers looking for an argument though….

This was the Met Traffic (South East London) mostly and I had a couple of blue cars for several years so they may have also just been playing snooker sometimes which I’m told was common when they got bored on the night shift. The same source (a traffic inspector whose photocopier I fixed occasionally and for whom some of the buggers stopping me worked for!) also advised that “Can I just take a note of your shoulder number please officer?” would always make the stop very quick unless I really was doing something wrong. I never was though since my driving licence has always been very precious to me…..

A quick Google about bike restrictions tells me that either throttle stops or inlet reducers are used and neither of these would be visible at the side of the road. The system (plod, insurance) seems to be handling those OK so invisible systems fitted to a car should be a similar experience.

Night driving is in Pass Plus but I agree first aid training would be a good addition.

The fact that you had to challenge them to stop them taking the piss means the system was being abused, we all know that the Police like to push their powers are far as they can and the old sketch about being stopped for having black curly hair and thick lips was "funny" because the Police pushed SuS way too far. I certainly do not want to give the Police blanket powers to stop young people just because they are young.

The restrictor kit that was fitted to a mate's second bike (his wife used it) an 800cc Kawasaki was an inlet restrictor but, it had to be installed behind the carb meaning that the cover. air filter and carb had to be removed to see the disc. it was only a core plug with a hole in the middle, nothing fancy. I can't see the Police managing to do that at the roadside especially with the complexity of modern cars. Be easier to restrict them electronically, my car keeps doing that anyway! Bloody safe mode.

I don't think any of these things will make much of a difference on their own but, we do need to do something to try and reduce accidents. I do think there are lots of little things that, added together, will make a big difference. We just have to ensure that the rest of us, the "older, more experienced" drivers keep up to standard too.

[andy tims]

I've always been of the opinion that it's crazy teaching people to drive yet give them no lessons on Motorway driving.

Ditto

[gog]

The fact that you had to challenge them to stop them taking the piss means the system was being abused, we all know that the Police like to push their powers are far as they can and the old sketch about being stopped for having black curly hair and thick lips was "funny" because the Police pushed SuS way too far. I certainly do not want to give the Police blanket powers to stop young people just because they are young.

The restrictor kit that was fitted to a mate's second bike (his wife used it) an 800cc Kawasaki was an inlet restrictor but, it had to be installed behind the carb meaning that the cover. air filter and carb had to be removed to see the disc. it was only a core plug with a hole in the middle, nothing fancy. I can't see the Police managing to do that at the roadside especially with the complexity of modern cars. Be easier to restrict them electronically, my car keeps doing that anyway! Bloody safe mode.

I don't think any of these things will make much of a difference on their own but, we do need to do something to try and reduce accidents. I do think there are lots of little things that, added together, will make a big difference. We just have to ensure that the rest of us, the "older, more experienced" drivers keep up to standard too.

Sadly I don’t suppose there’s enough coppers about now for them to be able to waste time stopping people for fun. I can’t remember the last time I spotted plod tucked up a side street in the early hours waiting for somebody to stop….

Since some cars can shut down cylinders to save fuel maybe that’s a way of restricting power output. Some car keys can remember certain settings such as seat, mirror and heater settings/positions so that could be extended to engine maps/settings too. If it’s possible then it would also solve the shared vehicle thing. Mum or dads key gives full engine power and younger drivers key doesn’t. Investment by the manufacturers would be needed and they may only do so if legislation was changed to force them though.

I don't think any of these things will make much of a difference on their own but, we do need to do something to try and reduce accidents. I do think there are lots of little things that, added together, will make a big difference. We just have to ensure that the rest of us, the "older, more experienced" drivers keep up to standard too.

Yes, yes and yes.

[snowman]

I'd even go so far to suggest a graduated licence system (a kind of equivalent of power restriction for bikes) for new passers too but I’m probably in a minority on that one….

Restricting what?

Insurance usually does a good enough job of this and, to be honest, you can do 100MPH in pretty much ANY car these days. Certainly enough to get you into serious trouble.

I don't really care either way (my kids both have low power cars because it's what they can afford to run and insure), but I don't see any evidence of inexperienced drivers driving very quick drivers and getting into serious trouble.

YOUNG drivers, perhaps, but usually ones who've been driving for a few years or don't have insurance, and then why would they worry about an appropriate licence?

M

[gog]

Restricting what?

Insurance usually does a good enough job of this and, to be honest, you can do 100MPH in pretty much ANY car these days. Certainly enough to get you into serious trouble.

I don't really care either way (my kids both have low power cars because it's what they can afford to run and insure), but I don't see any evidence of inexperienced drivers driving very quick drivers and getting into serious trouble.

YOUNG drivers, perhaps, but usually ones who've been driving for a few years or don't have insurance, and then why would they worry about an appropriate licence?

M

Restricting what and when they can drive and number of passengers maybe?
If the engine restriction thing really does help bike stats then some kind of similar approach for cars might be worth a thought.

We’re forever being told that young drivers are at a greater risk so if that’s the case something needs trying surely.

Relying on the cost of insurance doesn’t restrict everyone equally but I appreciate it impacts on the vast majority.

[Gyp]

I've got an idea... If motorways are the safest roads, perhaps we should restrict the newly qualified to using the motorways until they are experienced enough to be allowed into the more dangerous A and B roads...

[snowman]

Isn't there some kind of restriction on number and age of passengers or was that just something proposed at some time?

M

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[GrahamB]

Sadly I don’t suppose there’s enough coppers about now for them to be able to waste time stopping people for fun. I can’t remember the last time I spotted plod tucked up a side street in the early hours waiting for somebody to stop….

Since some cars can shut down cylinders to save fuel maybe that’s a way of restricting power output. Some car keys can remember certain settings such as seat, mirror and heater settings/positions so that could be extended to engine maps/settings too. If it’s possible then it would also solve the shared vehicle thing. Mum or dads key gives full engine power and younger drivers key doesn’t. Investment by the manufacturers would be needed and they may only do so if legislation was changed to force them though.




Yes, yes and yes.

Problem is that it these "target driven" days it is a nice easy pull, check and conviction for upping their numbers. Would the Police rather go after pub fights to get their arrest and conviction rates up or go after young drivers for the same tick in a box?

I agree with restrictions through electronics, as I said I had a car that kept switching itself into a safe mode. A key that is coded to the driver with the limitations stored within the key would then make it the responsibility of the driver to ensure they carried the correct key, otherwise their insurance and license for that vehicle would be invalid. That would work better that a restriction in the inlet manifold

Last bit, yep, we all have to keep up to date and stop assuming that older means better!

[gog]

Problem is that it these "target driven" days it is a nice easy pull, check and conviction for upping their numbers. Would the Police rather go after pub fights to get their arrest and conviction rates up or go after young drivers for the same tick in a box?

I agree with restrictions through electronics, as I said I had a car that kept switching itself into a safe mode. A key that is coded to the driver with the limitations stored within the key would then make it the responsibility of the driver to ensure they carried the correct key, otherwise their insurance and license for that vehicle would be invalid. That would work better that a restriction in the inlet manifold

Last bit, yep, we all have to keep up to date and stop assuming that older means better!

That’s that sorted then. You and I just need to get the job somehow and we can crack on…!

[AsifG]

I do over 30k miles a year and it's so frustrating to see people hogging the middle lanes so if they get tuition it'd hopefully make an impact

My real pet hate is where the Mway goes from 3 to 4 lanes and the idiots who were hogging lane 2 are then in lane 3 - effectively making the motorway a 2 lane road. I just don't understand how they cant see it. If late at night, I'll either continue in lane 1 (and they don't move) or I flash them if I'm feeling particularly annoyed - they regularly move and then move back into lane 2/3 after I've overtaken them and they then flash their lights at me!!!

Some people definitely need tuition on how to drive! TBH I still get driving tuition even though I drive a high powered car and go on road trips to Alps etc regularly. Once a year I do a day with a Police Pursuit Instructor and I learn every time I go with him

[GrahamB]

That’s that sorted then. You and I just need to get the job somehow and we can crack on…!

They couldn't afford us as we would cost the government a fortune in Employment Tribunals. Nobody would work with us as we'd try and get the job done lol

That and they wages are rubbish

[RobM]

I think the spirit of this is a great idea, but I'd like to see it become a mandatory second phase of getting a full driving licence. New drivers should pass their test as they do today to prove they're safe and able to drive, then have to do a fixed number of hours with an instructor on motorways afterwards before being awarded their full licence. Even if it's an evidenced and recorded lesson rather than a test, it would make a big difference.

On a semi-related note, I also think the same (evidenced / documented time with an instructor) should be mandatory at retirement age and every 5-years from then on to retain your licence.

[RobM]

I do over 30k miles a year and it's so frustrating to see people hogging the middle lanes so if they get tuition it'd hopefully make an impact

My real pet hate is where the Mway goes from 3 to 4 lanes and the idiots who were hogging lane 2 are then in lane 3 - effectively making the motorway a 2 lane road. I just don't understand how they cant see it. If late at night, I'll either continue in lane 1 (and they don't move) or I flash them if I'm feeling particularly annoyed - they regularly move and then move back into lane 2/3 after I've overtaken them and they then flash their lights at me!!!

Some people definitely need tuition on how to drive! TBH I still get driving tuition even though I drive a high powered car and go on road trips to Alps etc regularly. Once a year I do a day with a Police Pursuit Instructor and I learn every time I go with him

You can undertake legally so long as it is safe to do so and you're not breaking any other laws, e.g. speeding or driving without care and attention (such as weaving around people over-and-undertaking to get past).

My drive to work is mostly motorway and it is dangerous and frustrating that most people drive in the middle lane, totally unaware of how to drive on the motorway. So long as I'm steady and they're predictable (e.g. obviously a middle lane moron, not weaving around between lanes), I'll just carry on in lane 1. Very occasionally it will make somebody realise their being an idiot and they'll move over soon afterwards.

[AsifG]

You can undertake legally so long as it is safe to do so and you're not breaking any other laws, e.g. speeding or driving without care and attention (such as weaving around people over-and-undertaking to get past).

My drive to work is mostly motorway and it is dangerous and frustrating that most people drive in the middle lane, totally unaware of how to drive on the motorway. So long as I'm steady and they're predictable (e.g. obviously a middle lane moron, not weaving around between lanes), I'll just carry on in lane 1. Very occasionally it will make somebody realise their being an idiot and they'll move over soon afterwards.

Agree - that's why I continue past them in Lane 1 mainly too. However, when it's late at night and I see a lone car in lane 3 of a 4 lane motorway, I tend to try to point out to them (by a quick flash of the lights that they're an MLM). However, a lot the time they either ignore me or they move back once I've passed them. I'd really really love to know what their logic for driving like that is!