Just a reminder for our Welsh residents or visitors. The period of grace from the introduction of the “ not blanket” 20 mph expires tomorrow and enforcement begins.
Since Sep17 th all the community watch Tzars have been stood down and we have seen very few GO- Safe vans in our area.
However that may soon change. Local press and news are advising enforcement commencing from the 17th Dec.
From my observation of drivers obeying the new 20’s I predict……………carnage, with quite a few official letters dropping through letterboxes in late Dec early Jan.
Steve
Was chatting to someone from Wales on the plane last week & she was not a fan, especially with the hilly parts where you’re hunting between gears all the time if in traffic.
Ridiculous decision, Bradford on Avon has 20mph through the town centre, was their yesterday and it’s just painful.
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It's appalling, and honestly causing more problems than before. I've seen people who would normally speed 40 in a 30 now just do 40 in a 20. Meanwhile I've seen people do 20 in 60 zones and saw one chap get pulled over by an ambulance for a word.
The feeling of anxiety is palpable and I spend more time looking at the speedo than the road.
The road I live on is still 20 in one direction and 30 in the other if you follow the signs, and the paint they used to spray over many the 30 signs is fading away and some modern cars with camera are apparently getting confused. WTAF!
It's like the wild west.
I recently built an ebike for my daily commute and can now go comfortably over 20 with no insurance, tax, petrol and general consequence to worry about (unless I crash) so stuff the rules!
We were in a pilot so we thought it would be easier for us to get used too. Wrong , they have messed with the signage in Flintshire so much. Since Sept 17th every 30 was reduced to 20 mph overnight.
Then over the last three months some 20’s are 30’s some 20’s are 40’s !!. And since 20 is the default speed in built up areas there are NO small repeater signs like there were in previous 30’s. So if anyone is unsure ( and lots of people are unsure) then their speed drifts down to 24/25 even in 40’s.
Its chaos, a recent significant opinion poll showed the number of people against the new 20 mph had grown from 60 to 70% over the last three months eg since adoption.
Wales the only place you can be done for kerb crawling and speeding at the same time :)
Last edited by higham5; 16th December 2023 at 17:24.
I am not directly affected so have it easy but a couple of questions to those who are affected and hate it:
1) considering that hitting a pedestrian at 20mph is less lethal than at 30, and assuming the numbers remain identical, how many saved lives would it take for you to accept it was a good idea in the first place
2) most reasonably recent cars have a "LIM" function associated with the cruise control. This function allows you to set a maximum speed* and saves you from watching your speedometer all the time. Why not use it?
*Doesn't work if driving downward as it deactivates the throttle, no action on the brakes.
As a side note, many town centres in France are limited to 30 km/h and it goes quite smoothly with no specific butt pain.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
10mph is even less lethal, where do you draw the line? Green cross code man clearly needs a comeback on television, and some pedestrian accountability. GCC Man existed before the brainless walked looking at their phones with headphones in, oblivious to surroundings but yet we pander to the lowest common denominator as per usual.Originally Posted by Saint-Just
LIM isn’t as common as it should be where cruise control is fitted. It should be a function wherever CC is present, I personally much prefer it CC as can lift off to decrease my speed vs the CC feeling of relentless progression. I can then keep control of my speeding via manage my braking distance to the car in front by lifting off (motorways, not 20 or 30mph)
Need to check if LIM does actually work at 20mph, as I know CC won’t, so not sure if it’s a connected technology whether the limit function does either. Tomorrow’s experiment sorted then!
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I tried setting my cruise control at 20mph (its in England as well, out of towns well away from pedestrians in a lot of places) you cant do it.
Everyone is so unsure they are concertining and going down to 10mph or slower,so even leaving a big gap you end up braking.
Its far less safe when you arent looking out for danger just constantly looking at your speedo and its causing anxiety.
Signs are not clear and there is no logic to it.
In a built up area,school or Hospital area fine.
This is just stupidity to match all the other stupid things the idiots have done.
Even more of the 20 signs will get sprayed with black paint then, tons of them have already been vandalised in rural areas
20mph is the limit to set CC on my 10 yo Beemer but Lim works at slower speeds.
While GCC probably needs to be revived, children playing and elderly will still be prime victims: not all accidents are due to the pedestrians. More importantly the traffic has probably increased several folds since GCC. More traffic, greater risk.
As I said it’s not something they pulled out of their fundament, it’s been on the continent for decades and it works. And no one thought there it would be a good idea to spray paint them. So maybe a return of some sort of education on how to behave in society for the common good instead of just self interest would be more useful than the man in green.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I just drove diagonally from Manchester airport to Fishguard today first time in wales since it was introduced and it is a real ball ache. Some parts make sense other are frankly ridiculousness. Now with Drayford going I wonder if at some point they will reverse it. No one here thinks it’s a good idea from my straw poll of neighbours.
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Last edited by chrisjones3; 16th December 2023 at 19:32.
This is one of the problems when folk say 30 one way 20 mph the other. Councils in Flintshire either removed 30’s , put black shrink wrap around them or sprayed them matt black. Folk are spraying the 20’s matt black so they cant be seen. However sat navs ( unless dynamically updated) say its a 30mph.
We will get used to it, it will become the new normal , but….a lot of folk are going to be getting NIP’s and appealing them for some time to come.
Here as well, 30km/h is the norm in city and town centers. I kind of like it, in real life the speed people drive are probably closer to 40km/h, but speeds are definitely down from what they were in the past. Makes no real difference to journey times and it's somehow relaxing when driving.
It is not just in city centres its in rural areas with no pedestrians,open areas with wide roads and no footfall.
Like the 15 min citys and LTNS etc.its ego driven, undemocratic, nonsense.
As I predicted, a complete mess. Also, just because something works elsewhere in Europe doesn’t automatically mean it’s right here. Different cultures, different legacy issues and different behaviours.
Wales aside, try driving through London in first gear and show me how it’s a good thing.
Add to this that in most of the UK drivers are concentrating on the 20 to 30 metres in front of their vehicles trying to avoid potholes rather than looking far further ahead. The logical extension of arguing that 20mph is less lethal than 30mph leads you to arguing that at 0mph nobody dies. However, it's just not practical.
We travel to Anglesey regular and at first found it strange however if you just get your head around it, it doesn't beat you up. Must say though, that it does feel a little intimidating when someones up your rear end, chomping at the bit at 20 :) when doing 30 there always seemed to be a happy gap between vehicles
1) undemocratic? It isn't as you say wide roads in open areas: it is specifically to roads whose max speed was already restricted to 30 mph if I understood correctly. It was also voted by the Senedd Cymru so whilst it may not agree with your opinions, that doesn't make it undemocratic.
2) nonsense? It is estimated that 6 to 10 lives would be saved and 1200 to 2000 casualties avoided each year. The families of those people may disagree with you here again.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
So you are riding a motorcycle with no tax, insurance or mot….
Some roads in England have gone from 60 down to 20.
60 to 40 to 30 to 20.
Meanwhile pot holes have been redesignated something like twice the old depth,dangerous in a car lethal on 2 wheels.
Cars are driving on the crown of the roads around the Claydons etc. its so bad,I nearly got killed last year.
Statistics have been skewed to fit the narrative of those who are fit and can cycle and walk.
Bikes have become a menace on the pavements and hurtling through pedestrian areas.
Meanwhile in remote areas where there are no pedestrians we are driving at 20mph.
This is the prelude to removing all cars and personal freedoms.
I'm not in Traffic Police - but I'm pretty sure his E-bike aint a motorcycle.
If it can do 20mph it’s a motorcycle and subject to all the requirements as such.
https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules
Other kinds of electric bike
Any electric bike that does not meet the EAPC rules is classed as a motorcycle or moped and needs to be registered and taxed. You’ll need a driving licence to ride one and you must wear a crash helmet.
I believe Montello is correct when it comes to the inbuilt capabilities...
...but of course you are too if Pete-r goes faster under his own speed.the maximum speed of the bike Its electric motor: must have a maximum power output of 250 watts should not be able to propel the bike when it's travelling more than 15.5mph
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Well as a rant it is perfectly valid but misplaced in this thread. The topic at hand is the change in regulation in Wales so whatever they may have done to roads around where you live is mildly irrelevant. I entirely agree that the states of our roads are in what the administration calls "managed decline" (managed my arse) but that is of a different thread. I suggest this one.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Appreciate the heads up. I expect to see cameras all over the place if I head to hills for a drive tomorrow. They’re usually just a problem on A roads, I expect they will be as big a problem on the slower roads too now.
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I'd be interested to know how you could drive safely through Bradford on Avon at a speed greater than 20? It's all blind bends, hills and hidden side roads. Plus, every time I've been there it's been chocka anyway so the speed was more like 10.
I'm all for 20 in built up areas like Bradford on Avon, but the Wales ruling seems like sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut legislation.
Plus, there are built up areas with huge wide roads and foot bridges that don't need to be 20. That really is painful.
I agree.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Ahah!
The statistical analysis was laughable.
They said the most injuries and deaths on the road network were in 30 zones and they became demonised. What they didn't mention was that the overwhelming percentage of roads were 30.
So... The next set of results will now show that almost every injury or death on Welsh roads will be in a 20 zone. So what do we do about that? Do we go down to 15, 10, 5?
The ONS have already distanced themselves from the reporting.
I would be happy for cars to be banned from around schools or whatever during certain times, but this decision was stunted and made by nanny state dictators who knew less than they think.
I was in Cardiff this year it was so bad with the 20mph limit,frustration,un justified car restrictions (I have a blue badge even the council couldnt tell me where I could park) add on the low speed/painfull motorways to get their I decided I will not return to that area.
Protesting farmers told me how it was effecting them in the pocket.
I live near a school I drive less than 20 at most times,I do not stop for kids who are waiting cross the road(though I go even slower).
Why?
Its simple,its the parents picking them up who are speeding and/or on the phone.
I have stopped before and kids have started crossing, many times parents have overtaken me as they are rushing for their kids.
I realised when an adult stops it implies to the child its safe to cross.
When walking in the area ive nearly been run over a few times by speeding parents (I include driving at 20 in a 20 when its not safe),its a 20mph but it could be 5mph or 30mph.
It wouldnt be any safer either way with parents like this,the school knows but cant act I expect its all schools the same.
I expect these (holier than though types we have on here) are the same people banging on about 20mph zones,I drive to the conditions and especially for childrens safety.
The motor can't do 20 on its own, but I can cycle on a flat at 20+ without the battery even fitted so with assistance it's a breeze to keep going 😄
I managed for 10 years after passing my test at 17 without hitting anything or anyone.
It is only 20 in the centre, and despite yokels not able to understand roundabouts or box junctions (that have not been on place for years), remain the major challenge.
Blind humpback bridges create their own speed limits and amusingly both of these remain at 30mph which makes a farce of the 20 mph clear sighted areas.
If the motor is limited to 15.5 you will be fine.
The fact you said you’d built it yourself and this sign off… made me think you’d got a unrestricted ebike.
I was coming through Froncysyllte (try saying it). A small village on the A5 just outside Llangollen. As I was driving through at 20 mph, a Lycra clad chap on a racing bike easily overtook me and disappeared into the distance. Oh how I smiled😡😡
Speed limits only apply to motor vehicles.
However, any cyclist or horse rider who overtakes a motor vehicle observing a 20mph limit needs to have a good look at themselves.
Apparently, when a pedestrian is in a collision with a motor car they are 20 times more likely to die if the car is travelling at 30mph, but 7 times more likely at 20mph compared to a 10mph collision (or something like that )
In theory the motor cuts off when you reach 15.5mph so any speed above is just on you, no assistance whatsoever.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
fronkeysichter?
You might well be a fantastic driver (isn’t everyone when asked?) but times have changed and roads are busier now. Speed limits are the maximum permitted speed, not the speed you should drive at so your bridge analogy doesn’t work. I wouldn’t hit a blind hump bridge at 30 just in case some idiot coming the other way decided 30 was too slow.
Speed limits are not the issue, people not sticking to them is.
I remain unconvinced that other than in the vicinity of schools and hospitals that it's a worthwhile measure except for the revenue potential.
Last edited by Chris_in_the_UK; 16th December 2023 at 23:46.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I genuinely don’t believe I could drive at 20 mph for any distance
Give up, if not then you should not be driving!
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Both of my road cars tick over at more than 20 mph in 6th or 7th gear i would be on the brakes permanently
Rubbish!
No it’s not, how would you know, have you driven my cars or any of the cars I drive,
Vron...kuh....suth...lee
And statistically, when a motorcyclist rides at a steady 20mph he is 7 times more likely to die from boredom
I live in Wales and I wholly embrace 20mph near schools and built up areas. Anywhere else is nonsense.
There are many other issues that need addressing such as mobile usage, drug driving, drink driving and piss poor driving standards.
Don't even get me started on Mark Dickford, cannot stand the guy.
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Always smile when anyone types this on a forum, as you know you have found that special person.
Knock it down a cog or two then surely ?
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