Water softener advice request

[Saint-Just]

I though I might as well run this through the hive as it has proven times and again it held some very knowledgeable people whose experience will go beyond my Google-fu results.
The context: having a new combi boiler fitted early October. Near Ashford, in Kent with typically hard water.
1 (new) bathroom + 1 (soon to be new) shower ensuite, modern build, 3 bedroom end of terrace cottage.
Research came up with Kinetico Premier Compact or earlier version 2020c (HF) or Hague maximizer 410
Kinetico uses no electrics which is a serious appeal. I read Hague tasted better but we'll be fitting a Brita Activeline + in the kitchen so taste is only an issue when brushing one's teeth.
Also, prices seem to be fairly close to £1500, seems a bit steep but if it's the price...

Over to you, with thanks in advance

[solwisesteve]

I though I might as well run this through the hive as it has proven times and again it held some very knowledgeable people whose experience will go beyond my Google-fu results.
The context: having a new combi boiler fitted early October. Near Ashford, in Kent with typically hard water.
1 (new) bathroom + 1 (soon to be new) shower ensuite, modern build, 3 bedroom end of terrace cottage.
Research came up with Kinetico Premier Compact or earlier version 2020c (HF) or Hague maximizer 410
Kinetico uses no electrics which is a serious appeal. I read Hague tasted better but we'll be fitting a Brita Activeline + in the kitchen so taste is only an issue when brushing one's teeth.
Also, prices seem to be fairly close to £1500, seems a bit steep but if it's the price...

Over to you, with thanks in advance

We've had water softners in every house for the last 25+ years... Wouldn't be without one! In that time we've gone through 3 of them; they only seem to last about 7-8 years. Now on our fourth. After LOTS of own end user experience we recently changed to a Plumbsoft Solo from Monarch.

http://www.monarchwater.co.uk/produc...ft-solo-ultra/

Plus points:

Non-electric; though, tbh, we already had electrics at the install point due to replacing a broken unit.
Twin cylinder so constant soft water.
Zero setup
High flow rate so low back pressure
Very good low salt usage (much better than our last unit)

I think it was about £700 off the 'net. Self installed but, assuming you have a suitable location i.e. where the water starts in the house, then it's about half a days labour for a plumber: Heck I fitted ours in less time than that! btw local shop also quoted us c. £1500... I told them to sling their hook!

btw ours is a 4 bed house with two showers, bath, etc...

Expect a 25Kg bag of salt to last at least a month and costs about £7.50. We get 2 months out of a bag.

We have everything plumbed through the softener EXCEPT the outside taps. So that's all toilets, showers, etc...

If you live in a hard water area then a water softener is a must!

[uptheaddicks]

I am also in Kent and can confidently say that you will not regret your decision to get a softener.
My last machine was an electrically powered "timed" model using tablet salt.
I now have a metered, twin cylinder non electrical using block salt. This machine was supplied by a local Kent specialist but I think its rebranded.
PM me if you need more info

[craig1912]

Have a Kinetico and no issues. The fridge water isnt softened and that's what we drink so taste is not relevant. Wouldn't be without one. Go through a couple of blocks of salt every 5/6 weeks (£5). That's eight showers a day and washing machine on plenty.

[Captain Morgan]

I brought our metered softener from here, seems to be much cheaper that £1500 though they seem to have gone up a bit since I brought mine.

http://www.eastmidlandswater.com/Det...p?ProductID=87

All taps bar the main kitchen cold and outside taps are softened in our house, we use 2-4 blocks of salt per month season dependent.

[bambam]

Yep we have one too. Added last year when we had a load of work done so it was easy to re-route the supply pipes etc. Uses no electricity either and takes block salt.

About £900 if buying in isolation.
http://www.minimax.co.uk/water-softe...ater-softener/

Really pleased with it.

Haven't had one before so have nothing to compare to in terms of salt usage etc. But it does produce lovely soft water.

Cheers

[alfat33]

High flow rate so low back pressure...assuming you have a suitable location i.e. where the water starts in the house, then it's about half a days labour for a plumber

Does that mean that I could install one in the cellar? Not really sure about the water pressure needs to reach the tank at the top of the house, which is where the plumber put our last one (now broken). Always seemed daft to me that we had to lug the salt up there.

Thanks to Saint-Just for starting this thread btw.

[t955daytona]

+1 from me for the Kinetico ones, I fitted mine 5 years ago and it has been faultless, shower heads etc look like they did when fitted also 5 years ago. It it twin tank so always supplies soft water and although it takes the salt blocks you can also use tablet salt which I do as it is nearly half the price.

[Captain Morgan]

Does that mean that I could install one in the cellar? Not really sure about the water pressure needs to reach the tank at the top of the house, which is where the plumber put our last one (now broken). Always seemed daft to me that we had to lug the salt up there.

Thanks to Saint-Just for starting this thread btw.

When we renovated our house we had little choice than fit ours in the loft, which made sense when the boiler and water tank were also being moved there, the twice monthly visit to top up the salt never gets old

Obviously your plumber would know best but as long as you had a unit with sufficient flow I can't see why the cellar wouldn't be okay.

[solwisesteve]

Does that mean that I could install one in the cellar? Not really sure about the water pressure needs to reach the tank at the top of the house, which is where the plumber put our last one (now broken). Always seemed daft to me that we had to lug the salt up there.

Thanks to Saint-Just for starting this thread btw.

You'd need to have some idea of your incoming water pressure. Ours is rubbish (half inch water feed to the house) so I went for a softener that specifically said high flow rate (low back pressure).

Assuming 2.5m per floor then basement to loft would be about 1.5bar. As long as you have c. 2 bar then I'd say that was fine. btw I also fitted a ball cock valve on the cold tank suitable for low water pressure (you just need a different insert in the valve... 10 min job to do).

btw just checked and I paid £736 last August for the Solo Ultra (the big solo model - highest flow rate).

bbtw The Solo can use block salt but bags of tablets are cheaper and I'm a cheap git! ;-)

[alfat33]

Thanks Steve and Captain Morgan. We have pretty high pressure here, just as well as the house is 3 Victorian stories so the tank is a bit higher than usual. Sounds like I need one of those Monarchs! I can swap it for the old one already in the attic and then maybe move it to the cellar one day (the day after all my watches are serviced, the garden fence is mended, you know, that 'day').

[Tony-GB]

I'm of the impression you'll invalidate any guarantee on a boiler if softened water goes through it. I also believe you should never drink softened water.

[solwisesteve]

I'm of the impression you'll invalidate any guarantee on a boiler if softened water goes through it. I also believe you should never drink softened water.

Never heard of the boiler thing though the instructions for the dish washer says it's not necessary to use softened water; however we use softened for the washer and just don't bother adding salt to it - same effect IMO.

For the drinking thing. ISTR if you have an issue with sodium then they err on the side of caution and say you should have a tap for raw drinking water. However I think that's them covering their backs. We've had softeners doing everything in four houses for over 25 years and we've not suffered any issues with blood pressure or other sodium (salt) related ailments (or what the popular press like to say is bad about salt). The actual amount of sodium added by the softener is extremely low.

[craig1912]

I'm of the impression you'll invalidate any guarantee on a boiler if softened water goes through it. I also believe you should never drink softened water.

just not true re drinking

https://www.harveywatersofteners.co....ing-softening/

and it's recommended that you fill the heating system with unsoftened water but unlikely to invalidate a guarantee

https://www.harveywatersofteners.co....rosion-report/

[Nogbad The Bad]

I though I might as well run this through the hive as it has proven times and again it held some very knowledgeable people whose experience will go beyond my Google-fu results.
The context: having a new combi boiler fitted early October. Near Ashford, in Kent with typically hard water.
1 (new) bathroom + 1 (soon to be new) shower ensuite, modern build, 3 bedroom end of terrace cottage.
Research came up with Kinetico Premier Compact or earlier version 2020c (HF) or Hague maximizer 410
Kinetico uses no electrics which is a serious appeal. I read Hague tasted better but we'll be fitting a Brita Activeline + in the kitchen so taste is only an issue when brushing one's teeth.
Also, prices seem to be fairly close to £1500, seems a bit steep but if it's the price...

Over to you, with thanks in advance

I've got a Combimate as recommended by my BG engineer, not had to descale the kettle for years so the combi boilers fine too :)

http://www.combimate.co.uk/how-it-works.html

[solwisesteve]

I've got a Combimate as recommended by my BG engineer, not had to descale the kettle for years so the combi boilers fine too :)

http://www.combimate.co.uk/how-it-works.html

So this works by coating all the metal surfaces of your pipes, boiler, tanks, taps, washing machine, etc... with a phosphate of something (doesn't say what it actually is). Hmmm.... as it says though this is a lime scale preventer rather than a water softener. So it won't work as a means of cutting down your soap usages in the washing machine for example, or in the shower, washing, etc...

[Nogbad The Bad]

So this works by coating all the metal surfaces of your pipes, boiler, tanks, taps, washing machine, etc... with a phosphate of something (doesn't say what it actually is). Hmmm.... as it says though this is a lime scale preventer rather than a water softener. So it won't work as a means of cutting down your soap usages in the washing machine for example, or in the shower, washing, etc...

The OP mentioned "having a new combi boiler fitted early October" and I live in a hard water area, thats the only reason I mentioned it, also tea tastes rubbish with soft water :)

[solwisesteve]

The OP mentioned "having a new combi boiler fitted early October" and I live in a hard water area, thats the only reason I mentioned it, also tea tastes rubbish with soft water :)

Not according to all the tea drinkers that I know that use those desktop jug filter thingies.

Also you don't get the surface scum on tea made with soft water.

btw I don't drink tea but I've always used softened water in my Gagia coffee machine.

[IAmATeaf]

After years of nagging by the wife I've finally decided to get a softener installed. Had a look around and went for an ewt606 which they'll come and install in a few weeks time. Read some reviews, some good, some bad and I could maybe save some money by buying one myself and then getting a local plumber to fit it but thought what the hell.

Anyway, quick question, as part of their package they also install a drinking water filter tap and they've asked me if I want the tap connected on the softened water or normal water line and I don't have a clue so wondering if people here have any views? The women said that softened water is slightly higher in sodium but if you drink bottled water then the sodium content is around the same so this tap can be connected to either.

Oh if anybody is thinking of getting one installed, they do a referral scheme where I get 50 and you also save 50 off the total install cost, so money for nothing all round, so drop me a pm if you're thinking about it.

[Saint-Just]

I chose to have a separate Brita tap.

[solwisesteve]

Anyway, quick question, as part of their package they also install a drinking water filter tap and they've asked me if I want the tap connected on the softened water or normal water line and I don't have a clue so wondering if people here have any views? The women said that softened water is slightly higher in sodium but if you drink bottled water then the sodium content is around the same so this tap can be connected to either.

The lady is correct. I use the softened water for drinking and no issues. The 'extra' sodium is only what you would get from bottled mineral water anyway. Also the soft water is better for the kettle/coffee machine. Maybe it's just us (SWMBO and myself) but we find the softened water tastes better as well.

[Riley]

Just a foot note to anyone doing major plumbing works or referbing their house.
IMO It's well worth the circa £700 extra cost of the works to fit a water softener. It runs with a megaflow system with no problems.

We built our house 10 years ago and fitted a water softener (we are on our second now, the first lasted about 7 years) and with no BS we have no lime scale issues at all. None. The chrome ware in the bathrooms is as new. You use much less soap, shampoo, detergent etc. I buy my salt from a wholesaler for £7.50 a bag and they deliver and stack it in the garage. Another benefit is that if you or the kids suffer from eczema or the like, soft water helps.

[solwisesteve]

Just a foot note to anyone doing major plumbing works or referbing their house.
IMO It's well worth the circa £700 extra cost of the works to fit a water softener. It runs with a megaflow system with no problems.

We built our house 10 years ago and fitted a water softener (we are on our second now, the first lasted about 7 years) and with no BS we have no lime scale issues at all. None. The chrome ware in the bathrooms is as new. You use much less soap, shampoo, detergent etc. I buy my salt from a wholesaler for £7.50 a bag and they deliver and stack it in the garage. Another benefit is that if you or the kids suffer from eczema or the like, soft water helps.

100% agree. We're on our 4th softener now (new one last year) and I agree with the lifetime. You seem to get 7 years out of them before something goes wrong. If you're lucky, when it does go wrong, the water mess won't be too bad ;-) We had one that blew it's guts and decided to pour water onto our new solid oak flooring :-(

My strong advice is put a water proof tray under the softener. A gravel tray is idea. This is to a) trap condensation which collects on the tank and b) if something goes wrong water leak wise then you have some protection. Our last one that died we spotted the inch of water in the tray and that protected us from a lot worse damage to the floor/kitchen.

[Thewatchbloke]

By coincidence I'm getting a quote for a new one today, I've had a Permutit 411 softener for the last 27 years but it's just about had it now. I've serviced it a few times and I've changed the resin once about 10 years ago but the valve body is almost worn out now. I'm going for the Minimax M2 this time as I'm fed up with lugging 25 kilo bags of salt around!

[MB2]

By coincidence I'm getting a quote for a new one today, I've had a Permutit 411 softener for the last 27 years but it's just about had it now. I've serviced it a few times and I've changed the resin once about 10 years ago but the valve body is almost worn out now. I'm going for the Minimax M2 this time as I'm fed up with lugging 25 kilo bags of salt around!

I have one of these, installed in 2014 and failed a few months ago. Was replaced today under their 10 year warranty although did have to pay 150 labour/call out charge but no quibble on anything from them - was replaced via local agent.

[IAmATeaf]

How much is the minimax m2, doesn't block salt work out more expensive? You can also get 10kg bags if the 25kg bags are too heavy.

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[MB2]

I cant remember now maybe 800 ? I have heard block salt costs a bit more - costs me about 3 per person per month in block salt.

Most important cost wise in my opinion is to ensure whatever softener you get is metered so only regenerates when needed, I also like the idea of twin chambers so even whilst regenerating you still get softwater as with a metered softener it will tend to regenerate when your drawing a bath or washing machine is running.

[frogspawn]

We are just down the road from SJ, had a softener installed about 10 years ago, no scale and I can't taste the difference ( we do have a non softened tap for tea with a water filter). Get a magnetic filter installed in the heating system if you are changing the boiler. Don't soften the garden / car washing water, its just a waste.

[MB2]

Isnt no scale the point ?

I really noticed the lack of mine in the shower today - soap doesn't sud so well, feel squeaky and not clean unlike slippery before.

The sink chrome is much less shiny and cleaning the bathroom is more laborious - can't wait to get the soft water back in the system over next week or so.

We do have very hard water 340 ppm so depends on where you are I guess.

[AndyMilts]

Make sure your softener is capable of of the through put needed for the Combi, when we changed to a combi our could no longer keep up. As the instant flow of water needed on a combi, the water softener feed pipe was smaller diameter than the mains which had a big impact on the water pressure round the house.

[RobDad]

We have a BWT water softener - the water is very hard where we live - and never drink the softened water, we have a hard water drinking tap. The engineer and any plumber I've spoken to has said you shouldn't drink the softened water ideally. We also had a new Worcester Bosch boiler installed shortly after the softener was serviced and the instructions specifically state the system should not be filled with softened water, although the filling loop will need sorting because at the moment it delivers softened water. All a bit confusing tbh, although I get the impression that the water here is so hard that a dishwasher won't last more than a couple of years without one!!


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[IAmATeaf]

Had a call to say they can bring the install forward to this coming Tuesday. So far can't really fault them, will post comments after it's been fitted.

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[mr noble]

THREAD RESURRECTION


I’m about to order a softener to be fitted when we have a new kitchen and utility in 3 weeks.


Any more recent tips on model and type I should go for??


We have an oil fired boiler and big megaflo type cylinder in the airing cupboard on the landing.

5 bed house but only 2 adults and a baby live here.

Can’t wait to get back to softened water like we had in our last house!



Plumber is going to fit when he does the kitchen so just need to buy one and have it delivered in next couple of weeks.

Reading this thread it seems I need a twin cylinder but I’ve no idea about pressure and flow rates or block/tablet choice. Our last one used tablets and I filled it once a month maybe.

[Mj2k]

Our kinetico is still going strong after 13 years, I’d replace it with another instantly if it failed.


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[Saint-Just]

Pleased with the one I got, too. Your plumber will advise regarding pressure but I was happy to lose a bit of pressure for softened water.
I put 2 1kg blocks of salt every month, roughly.

[domwells]

I'd recommend making sure the place you install the softener is well protected against moisture - our softener had a small leak which damaged the kitchen cupboard it stands in.
Other than that it's been great - Harvey's based machine that takes block salt.

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[IAmATeaf]

My EWT softener is still going strong. Only advice I can offer is what ever you choose make sure is can accept salt tablets or granules. Although blocks look more convenient they not only cost more but you end up having to replace the blocks more often, my softener can take an entire 25kg in one go which for my family of 5 last between 5-6 weeks.

[earlofsodbury]

Is anyone aware of any *effective* water-softening technologies aside from salt-based systems? E.g. I've seen ads for magnetic devices that clamp on to pipes - can't possibly see how magnetism could have any effect, but what about electrolysis, etc?

[Mj2k]

I’ve always assumed they are snake oil.


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[MB2]

Is anyone aware of any *effective* water-softening technologies aside from salt-based systems? E.g. I've seen ads for magnetic devices that clamp on to pipes - can't possibly see how magnetism could have any effect, but what about electrolysis, etc?

I spoke to my plumber about this- his opinion was they do work and help disrupt the scale on it's way to the heat exchanger and does help reduce scale build up.

A water softener provides lovely soft water, make cleaning easier, uses less detergent etc. so although the electrical and magnetic devices have some merit they are in no way a substitute to a water softener as they only help in a very localised way.

[Saint-Just]

The only way to soften hard water is to remove some of the calcium carbonate it contains.
The salt doesn’t do that: a resin does, and the water you get from the tap has no salt in it.
But when the resin is saturated, flushing it with brine removes the calcium carbonates and restores it.

Soft water is not just for your pipes. It means your taps and shower doors remain spotless and the contact on your skin is very different.

[Kingstepper]

Is anyone aware of any *effective* water-softening technologies aside from salt-based systems? E.g. I've seen ads for magnetic devices that clamp on to pipes - can't possibly see how magnetism could have any effect, but what about electrolysis, etc?

Agree with others that the magnetic things are snake oil.

Don't see how electrolysis would work but maybe you're thinking of reverse osmosis? This removes everything in the water w/o adding salt - plenty of companies selling these systems, no experience personally - Google will reveal pros and cons.

The only way to soften hard water is to remove some of the calcium carbonate it contains.
The salt doesn’t do that: a resin does, and the water you get from the tap has no salt in it.
But when the resin is saturated, flushing it with brine removes the calcium carbonates and restores it.

Soft water is not just for your pipes. It means your taps and shower doors remain spotless and the contact on your skin is very different.

Salt softeners don't remove carbonate. They only replace calcium (and magnesium) ions with sodium. Whilst there is no 'salt' (sodium chloride) in the resulting water there is much more sodium which can be dangerous to drink, esp. for young children or in hard water areas (when more sodium will have been added).

[Saint-Just]

Again, no salt is added to the water. A bit like rinsing a filter, the salted water goes through the resin and down the drain. It’s not a continuous process either: the resin is in 2 tanks, and after a certain volume of water (that depends on the hardness) has gone through one of the tanks, it is flushed but the other tanks is in service so you don’t have interrupted water supply during flushing.

[IAmATeaf]

The level of sodium in softened water is akin to the levels found in bottled water, well that’s what I was told

[earlofsodbury]

Thanks everyone who responded on the magnetic devices. I clearly need to do some more research - and then get my finger out, cos our taps dispense liquid rock!

One thing I do know - it's best to keep an unsoftened drinking water supply, because we need the calcium and other mineral content to help avoid growth issues in children and brittle bone disease in adults (modern diets often lack sufficient Ca, Mg and P).

[IAmATeaf]

As part of my install they fitted a filtered drinking tap on the corner of the sink and I also made sure that the water to the outside tap is not softened.

[Saint-Just]

As part of my install they fitted a filtered drinking tap on the corner of the sink and I also made sure that the water to the outside tap is not softened.

Same here. Drinking water doesn't go through softener but through a specific Britta tap.

[Mj2k]

As above. We had a filtered tap when ours was installed & when we had the kitchen redone we opted to get a 3 way tap fitted instead of a standalone filtered one.


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[MB2]

Agree with others that the magnetic things are snake oil.

Don't see how electrolysis would work but maybe you're thinking of reverse osmosis? This removes everything in the water w/o adding salt - plenty of companies selling these systems, no experience personally - Google will reveal pros and cons.



Salt softeners don't remove carbonate. They only replace calcium (and magnesium) ions with sodium. Whilst there is no 'salt' (sodium chloride) in the resulting water there is much more sodium which can be dangerous to drink, esp. for young children or in hard water areas (when more sodium will have been added).

RO filters water down to a few ppm (in my case 22) but it is very wasteful so only suitable for drinking water. Softened Tap water for me is the same as the mains (274 vs 278 ppm) in my experience it does still spot but is much easier to clean off and makes showers and shaving etc. much more enjoyable and leaves the bathrooms clean and sparkling - only exception is the taps under the shower but this wipes off so easily and there really is next to no scale in tapes/showers that I used to have to clear regularly with bits falling out of them.

When I looked at protecting the pipework and boiler heater there were polyphopshate dosers which looked effective and are used in many industries, but I decided with my plumber that a water softener would provide the best overall experience.

If I moved house the softener would definitley be coming with me !

[solwisesteve]

I'd recommend making sure the place you install the softener is well protected against moisture - our softener had a small leak which damaged the kitchen cupboard it stands in.
Other than that it's been great - Harvey's based machine that takes block salt.

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Ours is sat in a seed tray for this reason. You will tend to find condensation collects on the sides of the softener which, over time, tends to make a mess of the cabinet.