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Thread: Rolex content (but hopefully educational) - Spot the difference.

  1. #101
    Master ed335d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jedly1 View Post
    OK.....

    1. dial is real...just bit heavy on the ink mixed with a tiny bit of lack of focus on the shots IMHO.

    2. by looks of it Ray has sold it to some guy who has used it to complete a project and Ray hasn't delisted it.

    3. the dial is the wrong dial to go in a 1.3. it should be gilt.

    4. Rays heart is very much in the right place...he's just very good at digging a hole for himself :)
    More than happy with statements 2, 3 & 4!

    Is 'heavy on the ink' a manufacturing defect, is it something that can occur with ageing/contamination, or is it possible this has been touched up?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed335d View Post
    More than happy with statements 2, 3 & 4!

    Is 'heavy on the ink' a manufacturing defect, is it something that can occur with ageing/contamination, or is it possible this has been touched up?
    you'll get variations across print , essentially the font is the same but during any manufacturing process you'll get days where the process gets variations due to temperature, preparation , the human element etc.

    BUT more importantly , and i see this time an time again, especially since people started using iPhone cameras more and more , the slightest bit of freehand when the photo is taken , no matter how good the steady function is , you get a bit of softening of the definition and it can be very easy to jump to a conclusion , but when you get the dial in hand its clear.

    Id wager good money that if i had that in my hand and a 10x loupe the 6 would be just open .....

    it hasn't been touched up or anything.

    it is horrible condition though!!!...that lume is rough as a badgers arse.

  3. #103
    Master ed335d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jedly1 View Post
    you'll get variations across print , essentially the font is the same but during any manufacturing process you'll get days where the process gets variations due to temperature, preparation , the human element etc.

    BUT more importantly , and i see this time an time again, especially since people started using iPhone cameras more and more , the slightest bit of freehand when the photo is taken , no matter how good the steady function is , you get a bit of softening of the definition and it can be very easy to jump to a conclusion , but when you get the dial in hand its clear.

    Id wager good money that if i had that in my hand and a 10x loupe the 6 would be just open .....

    it hasn't been touched up or anything.
    Gotcha, thanks for the answer

  4. #104
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    What a baloney thread. It was the same dial, that much is clear. Some people drew some nonsense conclusions from that and some people have some apologizing to do. They know who they are...

  5. #105
    Hello Folks,

    I will from the outset say that Ray Nicol is a pal, but at the same time, if I had a problem with dial in question I would not hesitate in dropping Ray an e-mail to let him know my concerns.

    I am happy with the authenticity of the dial Ray was offering for sale on eBay (which he subsequently sold privately, and now resides in a period-correct 5513 Submariner watch).

    The picture of the dial isn't remarkably detailed, but the wear and rubs are consistent with a dial which has been loose in a watchmaker's parts drawer for some considerable time.

    To my eye, the dial layout and print characteristics appear to conform with the two early metres-first 5513s I have in my collection:





    I think sharp-eyed Andyg spotted both the dial and the watch apparently being offered for sale simultaneously, and Ray was negligent in not de-listing the loose dial immediately after it sold off eBay and was no longer available.

    I believe Ray's dial and that in the watchestudio 5513 are one-and-the-same; that the dial is authentic; and that the dial patina has not been enhanced or tampered with.

    Must also add: I haven't trawled through eBay for a while, so can't pass comment on any other current listings (unless they have four wheels and a prancing horse badge on them!!).

    Mike Wood

    ;-)

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandS View Post
    What a baloney thread. It was the same dial, that much is clear. Some people drew some nonsense conclusions from that and some people have some apologizing to do. They know who they are...
    Interesting thread and a great spot by Andy but the first time I recall agreeing with GrandS with regard to later developments
    Last edited by Bluetinfloor; 21st April 2016 at 07:33.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray1 View Post
    it don't look good Lol....

    WTF don't look good here.... are you kidding me ? do you know what your talking about here there is nothing wrong with the dial on the watch don't keep going on about a subject clearly you know nothing about

    Ray, you don't look too good because of how you communicated. I have not suggested you were offering a fake dial or anything, but the way you were releasing the truth about yourself and your role in this in small steps only after some of the membership confronted you with it leaves a taste - completely unnecessary as far as I am concerned.

    Coming out looking worst is the seller of the watch, after all they have cobbled this together just weeks ago but present it as an original from 1966....

    Again, I wasn't suggesting you did anything wrong other than the way you communicated here.

  8. #108
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Ray, you don't look too good because of how you communicated. I have not suggested you were offering a fake dial or anything, but the way you were releasing the truth about yourself and your role in this in small steps only after some of the membership confronted you with it leaves a taste - completely unnecessary as far as I am concerned.

    [...]

    Again, I wasn't suggesting you did anything wrong other than the way you communicated here.
    I agree with this. This is the "hole" that walkerwek1958 referred to.

    As Michael E said, forums can be daunting but in the modern world they are increasingly where reputations are made or lost and so it is important to always be absolutely straight and honest up front on them. Where participation is oblique or the full facts and identity are not clearly stated up front (e.g. #29 and especially #33 and #36) then people get suspicious since this kind of obfuscation can be and is used by those who really do have something to hide.

    When a genuine error has been made it is much better to explain the full facts fully and clearly in one's first message.

  9. #109
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    This page on dials may be of interest to the forum :

    http://www.5513mattedial.com/MetersFirst.html

    The imbalanced kerning of the letters in ROLEX is an interesting feature.

    Haywood M

  10. #110
    Have to agree with Raffe. The Dial may be original and Genuine but the watch is not and in my eyes is being dishonestly sold. To me an original is as it was originally sold when new. Even if it's the correct dial it' almost certainly not the original one. On that basis alone I would not deal with the purveyor.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    I agree with this. This is the "hole" that walkerwek1958 referred to.

    As Michael E said, forums can be daunting but in the modern world they are increasingly where reputations are made or lost and so it is important to always be absolutely straight and honest up front on them. Where participation is oblique or the full facts and identity are not clearly stated up front (e.g. #29 and especially #33 and #36) then people get suspicious since this kind of obfuscation can be and is used by those who really do have something to hide.

    When a genuine error has been made it is much better to explain the full facts fully and clearly in one's first message.
    Yes forums can be a daunting place. I agree with the above but can see Ray's point of view for not wanting his name mentioned too.
    If you sell expensive parts or watches your reputation is the most valuable thing you have whether you realise it or not, on forums things can get out of hand fast, and if you are a honest trader this can be very frustrating, I can see why Ray wanted to keep his name out of this, especially when his item was been called a fake. He did make a mistake by not been up front in the first instance but he knows forums and how things can get.

    I have spoken to Ray the seller of the dial this morning, what he is most upset about is the threatening emails he said he has received about himself and his family, this I find disgusting behavior, I know for sure these people would not walk up to Ray and say the things to his face they say so freely via email, call it what you will but I do not think any right minded person would or could justify that kind of behavior. The people who send such emails are not as invisible as they think, so before they send emails they should really consider what they say in them, threatening family is on a higher level whether you mean it or not. Shameful really and just one reason why some people don't want their names publishing when they have done nothing wrong.

    How would the people who send these types of emails feel if their IP address was published and then their names? not very nice I should imagine.
    (this is not a threat BTW)

    There are some great guys on here and tempers can get out of hand but threatening emails are a step too far IMO.


    Cheers Michael

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael E View Post
    what he is most upset about is the threatening emails he said he has received about himself and his family
    Really?

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    This page on dials may be of interest to the forum :

    http://www.5513mattedial.com/MetersFirst.html

    The imbalanced kerning of the letters in ROLEX is an interesting feature.

    Haywood M
    I've studies this page quite a bit HM (both in the past when looking at 5513s and recently), but still find the information conflicting! It states:


    • starting from the top of the dial, the “L” in “ROLEX” should have very little if any serif on top and should be centered under the coronet. Serif is defined as small extensions at the letter’s vertical and horizontal termination points that enhance its appearance and readability.


    If you then look at the image, the L has (as I understand it) quite clear serifs and is not 'centered' under the coronet (although where is the centre on an L - through the middle of the upstroke?).



    All very confusing!

  14. #114
    Master ed335d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitfield View Post
    Really?
    Apparently, yes - I had a few PMs with Ray yesterday and he told me the same thing.

  15. #115
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    Perhaps "100% Original" now just means "100% Built From Genuine Parts"? In which case, what language is left for a watch solely constituted out of the parts it left the factory with?

    Glad to see that the buyer of the dial is now reassured of its genuine nature, and MW has publicly given Ray the thumbs. Everyone's always wanting to know about more trustworthy dealers, right?

    The emails though.....perhaps their authors might think it's not too late to apologise, now it's a bright new day?

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael E View Post
    what he is most upset about is the threatening emails he said he has received about himself and his family
    If he has really received emails that seriously threaten him and/or his family then he should definitely contact the police. This is a crime and the senders can almost certainly be tracked down (unless they were very cautious indeed).

    It seems incredibly odd to me that anyone reading this thread would have become sufficiently angry to send threatening messages but nothing should surprise me nowadays!


    Quote Originally Posted by Michael E View Post
    If you sell expensive parts or watches your reputation is the most valuable thing you have whether you realise it or not, on forums things can get out of hand fast, and if you are a honest trader this can be very frustrating
    In my view, that is why active and totally honest participation is always the best way forward, something which Ray did not do too well with to begin with in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael E View Post
    He did make a mistake by not been up front in the first instance but he knows forums and how things can get.
    However, a key aspect of knowing forums is knowing when and how to get involved. In my view, Ray was definitely right to get involved when he did in order to correct inaccuracies but, as I observed earlier, he handled his intervention poorly to begin with by not being totally open in his very first message. Keeping a low profile is not necessarily a good strategy; it is all about how you handle your profile. If you or your stock are being discussed in negative or erroneous terms then I think it is critical to take part openly and honestly to correct errors.

    (Language skills matter too: Perhaps it shouldn't be so but language skills have significant input into how people are perceived online, especially when they are correcting misapprehensions and errors about themselves or their products).

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed335d View Post
    Apparently, yes - I had a few PMs with Ray yesterday and he told me the same thing.
    I honestly find it hard to believe that someone would threaten his family. That's just lunacy.

    If he was sent those emails threatening his family, name and shame right now as that's totally and utterly unacceptable and if like to know who to avoid. Permanently.
    Last edited by DB9yeti; 21st April 2016 at 12:54.

  18. #118
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    ^^^

    Completely agree. We, the forum, were quick to "out" Ray, or insist he was outed, to clarify intent and fact... the same energy should be given to protect him from threats if they were made by forum members.
    Last edited by Siac; 22nd April 2016 at 16:24.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by DB9yeti View Post
    If he was sent those emails threatening his family, name and shame right now as that's totally and utterly unacceptable and if like to know who to avoid. TBH if he doesn't... Then I don't believe it.
    On the other hand, if seriously threatening emails really have been received then it might be better to avoid inflaming things here and to take it up directly with the police. Perhaps naming and shaming might become appropriate after police action has been completed.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    On the other hand, if seriously threatening emails really have been received then it might be better to avoid inflaming things here and to take it up directly with the police.
    Which Ray tells me is exactly what he has done, so hopefully the culprits will indeed receive a visit from the Police

    Foggy.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by DB9yeti View Post
    I honestly find it hard to believe that based on the fact he lied about being the dial seller, someone would threaten his family. That's just lunacy.

    If he was sent those emails threatening his family, name and shame right now as that's totally and utterly unacceptable and if like to know who to avoid. TBH if he doesn't... Then I don't believe it.
    Believe it,being threatened with physical violence by the resident internet warriors of the forum(be it directly or indirectly) is nothing new.It's all part of the brave new cyber-world we live in.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick View Post
    Believe it,being threatened with physical violence by the resident internet warriors of the forum(be it directly or indirectly) is nothing new.It's all part of the brave new cyber-world we live in.
    Good grief, I've had quite heated arguments with quite a few people here but never received serious/believable threats of physical violence. Whatever prompted the threats you received?

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy View Post
    Which Ray tells me is exactly what he has done, so hopefully the culprits will indeed receive a visit from the Police

    Foggy.
    I hope so too. Utterly unacceptable.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Good grief, I've had quite heated arguments with quite a few people here but never received serious/believable threats of physical violence. Whatever prompted the threats you received?
    Suggesting a member was selling watch straps that were not made of the material he claimed.Which strangely enough proved to be true.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick View Post
    Suggesting a member was selling watch straps that were not made of the material he claimed.Which strangely enough proved to be true.
    Ah, thanks.

  26. #126
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    If members of this fine forum are threatening people with violence they should be (I) reported to the Police and (II) named and shamed in H&V so that the membership can add them to 'ze list'

    Outrageous behaviour

  27. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by DB9yeti View Post
    If he was sent those emails threatening his family, name and shame right now as that's totally and utterly unacceptable and if like to know who to avoid. TBH if he doesn't... Then I don't believe it.
    I find it hard to believe as well. Why should anyone from here threaten Ray privately, when they can—and do—just abuse him to his face right on this thread? Perhaps he really did get emails, but they weren't from a forum member, and he mistakenly thought they were?

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitfield View Post
    Perhaps he really did get emails, but they weren't from a forum member, and he mistakenly thought they were?
    As you're aware, they could have come from anyone no matter what the contents: Email addresses and signatures can be trivially forged. Without investigation of logs that tie IP to person, potentially across multiple companies and servers, there is no way to be absolutely sure of who sent them (unless the senders admit to it).

    This being so, pretty much whatever we think here is speculation. Even the recipient can't be absolutely certain of who sent them.

    This is why I say that naming and shaming before the police have done what they need to do would be premature.

  29. #129
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    I recently received threats of physical violence by PM. When I chose to make those messages public, it was me who received criticism for it - the other member is still here and has never apologised.

    Police, I say.

  30. #130
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    There's all sorts of forum members in addition to the few hundred (total guess) of regular posters.

    Getting back to dial, it was called fake by a number of members then extended to obvious teabag treatment, wrong closed 6's and goodness knows to production runs of dials that exhibit the exact same discolouration and loss of lume. It clearly was the same dial in both listings and the mystery solved as a result of an eBay auto re-listing or non ending of listing on the dealers part. What someone else did with the dial in putting it in another 5513 is not the original sellers fault, but to have both listed at the same time on eBay certainly added another twist and got some members working overtime with the possibilities.

    Yes, Ray tried to damp it down a bit vaguely, before the full story, but when your a dealer and your items are called fake on the premier UK watch forum when they are not, it can have reputational consequences

    Whatever else has gone on, remember this was not a fake dial.

  31. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    I recently received threats of physical violence by PM. When I chose to make those messages public, it was me who received criticism for it - the other member is still here and has never apologised.
    Right, but that's because nobody takes threats from him seriously. We don't pick on the afflicted.

    If the emails really exist, it would be possible to quote them without naming the supposed sender. Until then, I don't give any credence to this claim.

  32. #132
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitfield View Post
    it would be possible to quote them without naming the supposed sender. Until then, I don't give any credence to this claim.
    But that still wouldn't prove that they were real (nothing can here). The alleged recipient could easily be accused of making them up.

  33. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    But that still wouldn't prove that they were real (nothing can here). The alleged recipient could easily be accused of making them up.
    Right, but with the best will in the world, Ray doesn't strike me as someone who could write convincingly in someone else's voice. At any rate, we would be able to make a judgment about it.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundood View Post
    wow,

    so Ray is an OK guy, but is selling a fake dial on ebay (maybe unknowingly) to watch whatever and they stick this fake in a gen Rolex, and try and sell it?

    now they have seen this thread and are panicking, and have approached Ray, who wasn't involved at first but now admits its him, and he is now trying to put the flames out with a water pistol?

    is there anything I have missed?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSaNWYHmUvI

  35. #135
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitfield View Post
    Right, but with the best will in the world, Ray doesn't strike me as someone who could write convincingly in someone else's voice. At any rate, we would be able to make a judgment about it.
    True. However, even though it would be interesting to see the emails in public, I can't see what would really be gained by the forum making a judgement about them. We're not the police. I can certainly appreciate that if I was in Ray's position and I had received seriously threatening emails, I'd rather keep them private until the police had done all that they were going to do about them.

    Thus I can't draw any substantive conclusions from lack of emails being made public at this time.
    Last edited by markrlondon; 21st April 2016 at 14:12. Reason: Corrected text

  36. #136
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    Blimey, all I wanted to do was raise a genuine concern that someone might be fabricating hooky patinaed dials or that something was very off.

    Ray, I am sorry if my thread caused you any distress however you could haved resolved the issue in your first post.

    As for threats - unacceptable and the perpetrators should be ashamed of themselves.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Blimey, all I wanted to do was raise a genuine concern that someone might be fabricating hooky patinaed dials or that something was very off.

    Ray, I am sorry if my thread caused you any distress however you could haved resolved the issue in your first post.

    As for threats - unacceptable and the perpetrators should be ashamed of themselves.
    Nice answer andyg and I agree.

    I don't know Ray but I too would of hesitated on that first post to be honest.

    +1 for anyone sending threats to be ashamed- keyboard warriors!

  38. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkO View Post

    +1 for anyone sending threats to be ashamed- keyboard warriors!
    I think these 'threats' are as kosher as the dial.

  39. #139
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    thread resurected by a newbee

    Hi
    (great start , miss-spelled title)
    I'm new to this forum, but have lurked on occasion. I'm a watch freak, particularly vintage, and a silver freak.
    I quite often look at expensive watches on ebay and elsewhere, just to drool really. Yesterday, I came across a square cased Patek Phillipe. The logo on the dial looks like its been painted on with a hairbrush. When I see something odd like this , I tend to google the seller. It lead me to this thread. Having looked at the sellers other items I came across what believe was the reason for this thread, i.e. the 'ultra rare rolex sub 5513'. I noticed the dial looks remarkably similar to the one mentioned here. I've brought this up because over the past several months I've been looking at vintage Rolex watches, hoping to acquire one for my birthday (prezz off the wife). But TBH, I'm scared, because I'm not sure I trust any s/h Rolex to be as described. The regular Rolex sellers on ebay advertise watches as being all original but often the dial looks too 'as new' or IMO, not correct looking. Sometimes they're advertised as original AND refinished, how can they be both?
    When the time comes I think I'll get one from a shop, perhaps 'Watches of Wales' (and feedback?) or somewhere in the Birmingham Jewellery Quarter as I realise its important to see/hold it before spending big (for me).
    Here's hoping this thread gets read and for some sound advice and recommended sellers from people far more experienced than myself.
    Last edited by g4zuk; 27th January 2017 at 14:44. Reason: typo

  40. #140
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    Thankfully the bizarre madness of vintage Rolex sports watches leaves me completely cold, so there's no danger of me getting sucked in. For those less fortunate than me, apart from saying 'don`t do it', the best advice is to buy from the most reputable sources such as Mike Wood at the oldwatchshop in Southport, or Haywood Milton. There are others. Worst way to buy is off ebay or from a dealer who is trying to pass a watch off as something it isn`t.

    Part of the problem is the buyers themselves. The current market has been created by the so-called collectors/elitists and their obsession with having exactly the right bezel insert, dial, and even the right font on the date wheel. Originality has been taken to a crazy level, with hundreds/thousands of pounds invested in the crumbling lume on a handset or the font on a worn out datewheel. It's little wonder that fake patina'd dials are out there, or hands that are made to look old, the obsessive buyers have created the market and demand is being met!

    Parts got replaced on these watches for a very good reason. Bezel inserts got scratched and battered, lume started dropping off dials and hands, date wheels were replaced because the bloody teeth were damaged........not simply because some repairer fancied swapping them! Very few of the folks who fawn over these things have ever tried removing a handset with lume that's turned to dust and watched it start to crumble as soon as the hand is touched......it certainly focuses the mind!

    I`m not a philistine, I like old watches to be original (where practicable) and I own some nice old Omegas myself. However, I think there's a certain type of madness around old Rolex sports. I can see the appeal of a nice example in great condition, but the sheer obsession with bezel fonts etc goes over my head. Maybe the sensible way into it is to deliberately buy something that isn't quite right and pay a lot less money. Provided the watch presents well, has a good case, runs well, has a dial and handset that match, who cares whether it's absolutely correct, it's a nice watch to own and wear. Leave the true 'collectors grade' examples for the purists and be thankful you're not one of them!

    Be careful out there.

    Paul

  41. #141
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    Thanks for this. I think if I could afford a sub I'd probably buy new from an AD, newish S/H don't seem much cheaper which is good from a depreciation point of view. I'm in the market for something that may be slightly less of a minefield, just a vintage Rolex auto, date, that looks good, not too battered. box and papers would be nice but that's another minefield. Agree with ebay. too risky unless a personal visit to the seller. I've bought many many vintage watches over the past few years. Be it wristwatch, pocket watch, spare / repair. I've never had a mis-represented watch yet. But who cares for the cheap ones. Once there's money to be made then it becomes tricky. I'm not all OCD when it comes to originality, just something that is as described. I can feel a trip to the national motor cycle museum coming on.. 12th March I think.

  42. #142
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Thankfully the bizarre madness of vintage Rolex sports watches leaves me completely cold, so there's no danger of me getting sucked in. For those less fortunate than me, apart from saying 'don`t do it', the best advice is to buy from the most reputable sources such as Mike Wood at the oldwatchshop in Southport, or Haywood Milton. There are others. Worst way to buy is off ebay or from a dealer who is trying to pass a watch off as something it isn`t.

    Part of the problem is the buyers themselves. The current market has been created by the so-called collectors/elitists and their obsession with having exactly the right bezel insert, dial, and even the right font on the date wheel. Originality has been taken to a crazy level, with hundreds/thousands of pounds invested in the crumbling lume on a handset or the font on a worn out datewheel. It's little wonder that fake patina'd dials are out there, or hands that are made to look old, the obsessive buyers have created the market and demand is being met!

    Parts got replaced on these watches for a very good reason. Bezel inserts got scratched and battered, lume started dropping off dials and hands, date wheels were replaced because the bloody teeth were damaged........not simply because some repairer fancied swapping them! Very few of the folks who fawn over these things have ever tried removing a handset with lume that's turned to dust and watched it start to crumble as soon as the hand is touched......it certainly focuses the mind!

    I`m not a philistine, I like old watches to be original (where practicable) and I own some nice old Omegas myself. However, I think there's a certain type of madness around old Rolex sports. I can see the appeal of a nice example in great condition, but the sheer obsession with bezel fonts etc goes over my head. Maybe the sensible way into it is to deliberately buy something that isn't quite right and pay a lot less money. Provided the watch presents well, has a good case, runs well, has a dial and handset that match, who cares whether it's absolutely correct, it's a nice watch to own and wear. Leave the true 'collectors grade' examples for the purists and be thankful you're not one of them!

    Be careful out there.
    I think this is a sensible and pragmatic view.

    I think it's worth noting that this was George Daniels' view too. He did not share in the vintage Rolex hype, particularly when the modern ones are so good.

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