Reply With QuoteThank you for sharing your experience. Really interesting.
I was recently given the opportunity to repair one of the more unusual luxury watches.
An FP Journe Octa Sport chronometer. 30k's worth.
Free sprung calendar automatic with day and night and up and down dials.
Whilst not in itself difficult to repair, the start is hindered by particularly unusual case screws which require a special tool to remove:
Having undone the case screws the rest seemed fairly straightforward:
Screws out of the way, off you go Brendan...
Ready for the cleaning machine. Note the large 5 day reserve mainspring and barrel.
Looking closely at the movement I am 99.9% sure it is made by Frederic Piguet.
It has several of their hallmarks. Finish, sliding intermediate winding wheels, plate shapes.
Even the calendar disc looks Piguet.
What actually stopped the watch was a small bit of glue, used to secure the auto winding rotor which had come loose and dropped between the train wheels.
I am annoyed at the outrageous behaviour of current Swiss watch manufacturers increasingly gluing screw into place.
I know from experience at Blancpain that early F Piguet screws were weak and broke easily but the screws in this watch are as heavy as those used by Rolex.
Most of the wheel pivots and the mainspring were also almost dry of lubricant.
Great fun with the 2 wheel calendar reading 35th ! (Sent a photo of it reading this to my wife in Geneva, message: 'What can I do, will customer notice ?).
The watch is now all back together and keeping time to under 8 seconds per day.
Long reserve mainsprings don't help great timekeeping as a rule, unless the watch has a fusee.
That Yeee Haaa feeling which all watchmakers know !
Thanks for reading.
Until next time...
Brendan.
Last edited by Webwatchmaker; 10th April 2016 at 18:27.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Really interesting.
Kuh ... and I thought FP Journe watches had ... FP Journe movements.
That the may not have is so typically ... er ... Swiss.
Mind you, if they don't have, that'll make a mockery of the company's slogan: "Invenit et fecit".
(That said, the classic pronunciation of "fecit" is 'fake it'.)
They might ! I could be wrong !Originally Posted by Tinker
Kuh ... and I thought FP Journe watches had ... FP Journe movements.
That the may not have is so typically ... er ... Swiss.
Mind you, if they don't have, that'll make a mockery of the company's slogan: "Invenit et fecit".
(That said, the classic pronunciation of "fecit" is 'fake it'.)
I certainly don't want to end up being sued for libel !
I do know that Piguet are making for Jaguar le Culture and others because their prices are very competitive.
And this one has so many similarities to Piguet that it looks like much more than coincidence.
Nice write up and info Brendan..
Thanks,
Vince
Do you normally leave the mainspring in the barrel when you clean it?
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Nice write up as usual - thanks.
Always enjoy your write-ups Brendan!
Waow !! Never !
They can be kinked, distorted, anything.
It was just easier to photograph like that to show the size of it in the barrel.
Well observed.
Nice work by the watchmaker!
Very interesting post. Nice work.
Looking good Brendan, as always!
What was your professional opinion of what you saw when it was in your hands - and in bits.
Finishing and decoration of movement in particular.
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I thought all FP Journe movements had gold bridges. One hopes this is not a frankenwatch?
Excellent work Brendon, thank you for taking the time to write this up .
Love thread like this thank you
Normally true except this particular Journe is the Octa sport, the entire movement was recreated in aluminium and titanium to reduce weight including the case.
Indeed - the mans livelihood and reputation is at stake. His brand lives and dies by his claim he makes his own movements. So I hope you are sure before you 'out' him on a publicly readable forum!
So F. Piguet, who no longer exist as they have become Montres Blancpain under the Swatch group, are making cheap movements for their arch-rival Richmont's Jaeger-LeCoultre; again a brand which lives and dies with a claim it's never used anyone's movements because they are totally in house?
And your claim is that for JLC it's cheaper to buy high-end competitor movements from the Swatch group than use your own in-house movements, of which they have almost 1500 calibres?
I'm out with Richemont people this Thursday so I'll update this thread if I can find out anything; I'm an FPJ and JLC owner. I buy them because they have in-house movements; if they're not, I want to know. My FPJ has a movement made of gold so I'm reasonably sure that's an in-house unit!
I'm also surprised that you're the first person to reveal this (I haven't searched for it elsewhere). People usually are desperate to find this stuff out and I'm sure someone, somewhere has popped the back off an FPJ before.
Disappointing to read about the accuracy of it.
I understood that Mr Journe prided himself on the accuracy of his movements.
The finishing of the movement, imo does not look as good as those made from rose gold.
But still an interesting article and the first one that I have seen featuring an FP Journe - outside of his own workshops.
Thank you for showing us.
It's good to have a reply from someone who claims to have a connection with Richemont.
Please ask them this:
What is their definition of 'In House' manufacture ?
What percentage of Swiss made components does a watch need to have in order to be marked 'Swiss Made' ?
How many 'In House' makers make their own jewels or balance springs, dial and hands, even mainsprings ?
I did not say that Piguet movements were cheaper. I said 'competitive'. This can mean many aspects other than price.
I have not 'outed' anyone but from my experience working with many brands I would say that the F.P. Journe I repaired bears a remarkable resemblance to Frederic Piguet movement construction. Not saying they are bad movements. In fact one or two are masterpieces of complex design.
I qualified that remark by saying I could be wrong.
I eagerly await the answers to the questions I have asked you to put to Richemont as I am sure do other members of this Forum.
Meanwhile perhaps you might reveal your relationship with Richemont to the Forum.
P.S. Journe watch backs do not pop off' !
Last edited by Webwatchmaker; 10th April 2016 at 21:18. Reason: qwertyuiop
Quote from the Journe website: "Fully wound the Octa Sport delivers chronometric precision for 120 hours. The meter-long mainspring supplies an average 850g of torque, limiting the loss in balance amplitude to 25% over the 5-day period. Beyond that time, the watch will continue to go for another day or two, but the amplitude-loss no longer guarantees precision timekeeping"
I couldn't find the use of the term "in house" on that website. I think I saw "exclusive movements" at some stage
Very interesting Der Amf.
Long duration mainsprings notoriously relate to poorer timekeeping.
Otherwise there would be far more of them around.
Provided the watch is worn almost constantly, since it is also self-winding, the mainspring will stay near fully wound so the amplitude will be at it's peak.
I again reiterate that I could be wrong about the movement not being made by M Journe himself, but in it's bearing a remarkable resemblance to Piguet, I qualify my statement by quoting Judge Judy:
'If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck !'.
Brendan.
I don't know if the blurb on websites is ever remotely illuminating, but for what its worth, here's more from the Journe site, which shows signs of translatorese:
"F P Journe undertook long researches to find an ultra light and resistant material to receive his exceptional calibres; while maintaining the standards of high horology that inhabit his everyday life. The Octa Automatique Reserve presents the new movement entirely made of Aluminium reserved exclusively for the "lineSport". With an extreme lightness in absolute comfort, the watch in its totality only weighs around 60 grams (on rubber bracelet).
"The passage from 18k rose gold, used for all the F P Journe movement, to aluminium was not without difficulty, for obvious technical reasons. F P Journe took his research to a higher level in an aesthetical quest to complete the appropriate contrast in colour."
The thorny question of what is really "in-house". Let's not forget the JLC 751, which was basically a Piguet 1185.
Looks to have more than a passing resemblance to the good old Miyota 9015
Just kidding, I'm fascinated to hear how horological designs and ideas are shared between movements (and presumably movement designers). It's nothing new I guess.
Translatorese or misleadorese ?
The movement certainly is not made of aluminium. The case is !
I am planning to post another contribution regarding what I have been told, on very high authority, about where the Swiss have discussed going regarding their wishes to have all repairs returned to the manufacturers for servicing.
These ideas whilst just rumours at the moment would affect every independent globally.
B.
Perhaps I'm quoting from a different model? Here's the link: http://www.fpjourne.com/eu/collectio...nesport-1.html
Thanks for the link.
It looks to me like the very same watch !
No way would the movement be made of aluminium.
It is made of nickel plated brass as pretty well all Swiss movements are.
This has to be a misprint, malprint ?
Wrong anyway !
Brendan, FWIW, I spoke with a Journe boutique not too long ago, and whilst not stated openly, the movement is regulated for +2/-0. I don’t think it was -2 since that would make it equal Patek, from where FP once worked.
Also, I’ll see if I can find it, but I’ve a recollection of there having been 2 revisions of the Octa Sport, so this one you’ve worked on, may be the first version.
From the link above, I have the distinct impression that the original was an aluminium case, but the current version went to titanium – in both cases, the movement has remained the same and claiming to be an "aluminium alloy”.
Need to do a bit of digging on Al alloys to see what sort of hardness values they have versus brass.
Last edited by PJ S; 11th April 2016 at 14:48.
The use of glue is very surprising to my mind!
It's not uncommon now. Believe me !
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That's very sad. It's something I would have expected in a cheap Chinese watch.
I'm off to bed now finally but before I go I can tell you that it reads 'Aluminium' on the case back.
I'll take a photo later.
No way is the movement or any part of it made from aluminium. That is absolutely absurd.
The metal is soft, reactive and totally unsuitable for holding jewels or tight screws.
The plates are 100% nickel plated brass.
The Journe website has made a serious mistake and confuses 'movement' and 'case' in translation.
I have the watch on test and am aware of the regulation parameters.
Last edited by Webwatchmaker; 11th April 2016 at 11:41.
I agree. It's rotten.
But hardly surprising given the barely trained 'Technicians' who now assemble watches.
For what it's worth, the French version of the text also claims that the movement is aluminium!
http://www.fpjourne.com/eu/collectio...-titane-1.html
F.P. Journe renforce sa lineSport et lance le modčle Octa en version Titane, avec mouvement en aluminium.
- - - Updated - - -
Hah! This is, of course, not what we are led to believe we are paying for. :-(
I think I would have noticed from the weight. Besides, the auto rotor would not have sufficient weight to wind the mainspring and the screw used to hold it whether glued or not would never withstand wearing forces.
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Oh I wasn't doubting your hands-on observations. Just noting what they say versus what you have seen and felt.
Someone has made a gigantic cock up somewhere Mark !
Aluminium simply would not be a suitable metal from which to make watch movements.
It is far too soft. Unjewelled pivot holes would wear out in no time.
Wheels would wear as quickly. Winding system teeth could not take the pressure and burr or break almost instantly....
Oh dear !
I'm going to bed.
Someone must be trying to wind me up !!!!
Good night.
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Last edited by Webwatchmaker; 11th April 2016 at 03:43.
Here's an article from 2012 that talks about the movement in these Octa Sports. Aluminium alloy, apparently. It's still a bit vague though.
The ALUMINIUM Watch – F.P. Journe launches the Octa Sport
In June 2011 F.P. Journe launched the first watch that was made of aluminium. That is, the case and bracelet were made of aluminium; the movement was still made from 18k rose gold. Today F.P. Journe launches a new watch, the Octa Sport, that is made of aluminium… entirely made of aluminium!
[...]
today he launches the Octa Sport with a movement made of an aluminium alloy used in the aeronautics.
[...]
While all other movement from F.P. Journe are made from 18K rose gold, this is the first movement ever to be created from aluminium. The aluminium was treated in order to make the aluminium scratch resistant and give it anti-corrosive and anti-allergic properties.
Although the Octa Sport aluminum movement, is made of a aluminium alloy, it still preserves all typical features of all F.P. Journe Octa calibers, with a five day power reserve and a variable inertia balance wheel for an optimal rate stability. The rotor of the Octa Sport is also made of aluminum alloy, but in order to increase inertia and thus to increase the winding speed, a tungsten segment was added as winding mass.
One of the more interesting and informative points we've had on here in many years.
I am not a metalurgist not a patent lawyer so can offer no real contribution but I don't half like reading about it.
The level to which we're being subjected to hyperbole to shut out independents though is something that i find quite distrubring. While it's no doubt good business practice it is not good for the customer and is only practicable to do if there is an agreement, at some level at least, between supposed competitors that this is the way forward. If it was oil, it would be a Cartel.
A really interesting thread.
At one point last year, I was on the verge of buying one of these pieces, unfortunately the seller and I couldn't agree a price. So I have found this post extremely informative and interesting to read.
My understanding from reading about this particular watch, is that the earlier version were made from Aluminium and the later from Titanium.
I wish now, that I had paid more attention, to the metal used in the construction of the movement in the earlier model.
I'm not sure that adds up - I once almost bought a vintage JLC in their Club range and my research threw up that they used, if I remember correctly, A Schild movements. The source was Zaf who runs the Vintage JLC forum. I realise that this refers to the pre-quartz crisis days but it's a fairly grandiose claim if they're not qualifying it to just the modern era.
Perhaps it hinges around exactly what is "in house".
Perhaps like the unfortunate Bremont "In house" and the whole "Swiss made" discussion.
I'm quite sure that within the law they are correct, but it does seem that the law does not tally with the marketting speak.
Perhaps it was ever thus but in the watch world it seems a very important part of the sales technique to claim heritage where non exists (resurrected brands et al).
There is clearly some poetic licence with the French language FPJ site. It's obvious just looking at the pictures below that the movement is not "entirely" made from aluminium.
Aluminium bronze for the plates perhaps?
I'd always thought that the aluminium alloy used by FPJ was one of the 7075 alloys or perhaps a Scandium alloy.
As for the FPJ 1300-3 looking like a FP movement, I'll defer to you on that one.
Thank you Broussard. You may well be right.
I am a watch repairer not a metallurgist.
I understand from talking to two of my genius engineers who make things for me that I cannot, that there are specialised aluminium alloys
which combine both strength and durability and could be used for making watch plates.
They have both said that a better choice would be titanium.
The fact that Journe states that the movement is made from aluminium is, in my opinion, at best misleading.
Several components could simply not be made from aluminium since they take a lot of pressure, friction and some need to be springy.
It is therefore possible that the large plates are made from some aluminium alloy in order to reduce weight.
But I would say the plates only.
Obviously I do not want the owner of this watch to be concerned about it's quality, which is in fact superb.
The movement is fully jewelled, including the mainspring arbor pivots, is free sprung, which means no regulator, it has an up and down dial, day and night dial and is very well finished. As well as being light and easy to read.
I will write further if I hear any news from F.P. Journe, meanwhile I consider this post closed.
Last edited by Webwatchmaker; 11th April 2016 at 13:18.
This thread is a great read for those interested in FP Journe. It seems to have highlighted two areas of contention. The first, which is a positive for potential owners, is the ability of an independent watchmaker to service a Journe; an area which has been raised as a concern to potential ownership.
The second however, is 3 questionable negatives which need clarification. You are supposed to be buying an absolute in-house crafted watchmaker's watch when buying a Journe. You've implied poor technicians (glue), relatively poor timekeeping (8secs a day after service), not 'in-house'; oh and I forgot, you also say the materials actually used aren't what the market was led to believe.
I'm not a Journe owner but thought I would like to be because of what I had been led to believe by their marketing and other peoples reviews. If what you say is true, that is quite disturbing. Have you serviced any other Journe watches? Were they not 'in-house' and put together poorly? How does your pricing stack up against FP Journe themselves and to your knowledge, would they have returned a more accurate timepiece after their service?
No axe to grind and my thanks to OP for informative post but I'd like some further information please as some claims in your post are a bit, shall we say 'contra to perceived wisdom'
Cheers
Hi Brendan,
Sorry to haul you up on something else too! Tungsten is over twice as dense as steel - in fact not far off the density of Platinum.
Great post though (and some very interesting questions raised).
Thanks B. I've deleted that gaff.
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