Originally Posted by Jeremy67
Bit of both, Ross won't go anywhere without real power....so that's not PAYE.....
A rather unsafe release of Hamilton by the Merc team indeed.
They should be reprimanded. No question.
The problem is that it would the the 3rd for Hamilton = 10 grid position penalty, whereas he as a driver has no blame.
Imo 'he' should be reprimanded and no doubt a Manor driver would be, but p.e. Ferrari (Alonso) has in the past received protected treatment and I am curious about the status of Mercedes in that ranking.
Ok, so they are protected too.
A fine is a token joke for a team with unlimited budget. No fine would have been less of an insult to the other teams and the intelligence of spectators.
Last edited by Huertecilla; 30th July 2016 at 12:32.
Ferrari Strategy Team lose again... PMSL
Hamilton properly crushed Rosberg today, even without the slightly harsh penalty for Nico. I hope Rosberg had a great break wondering where his championship lead went
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
Why were Red Bull on the radio to Vettel?
"A man of little significance"
Good to see the "cockwomble" win again :)
Rosberg, by pulling the same move as he previously did on Hamilton, proved he's a bad/dirty loser (deliberately forcing the opponent off the track)....and deluded!
I think Nico got off lightly; that's the second time he's driven an opponent off track this season.Hamilton properly crushed Rosberg today, even without the slightly harsh penalty for Nico. I hope Rosberg had a great break wondering where his championship lead went
IMHO he should face a much sterner punishment if he does it again. It's just poor sportsmanship.
What surprised me was Rosberg's assertion that he was on full lock but went straight on. The TV pictures clearly showed he had made no attempt to turn the wheel, and surely someone as experienced and intelligent as Rosberg would know that would be shown to be an outright lie.
I think the stewards were consistent with Nico. He made no attempt to turn until five minutes after the apex and forced max off the road, exactly the same as with Lewis in Austria.
I was slightly disappointed with the piece from Martin Brundle on sky however. Despite not being a big Nico fan I felt that the whole piece was aiming to undermine Nico in his battle with Lewis. Effectively the tone of the interview was "so, you're not as good as Lewis, why do you think that is?". I actually don't think he is as good as Lewis but the tone of the interview seemed designed to undermine Nico on all levels.
Perhaps I'm in the minority but I cannot understand why Rosberg was handed any penalty at all.
My view (rank amateur, not a racing driver!) is that Rosberg made no attempt to turn the car until a good way after the apex and normal racing line. Considering his transgression in Hungary for a similar/identical offence I think the stewards saw a pattern and penalised it it in order to show consistency.
My understanding is that you must leave space to the other car, and you can clearly see that his front left wheel goes almost to touch the outside of the track. In motocross, it's legal and called a block-pass, in F1 it is against the rules.
In isolation I agree, but as has already been mentioned, he's a repeat offender.
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
...because he ran his opponent off the road. There is a fine line in this tactic between fair and unfair. Many of the drivers can do this and be hard but fair (Ricciardo did it to someone yesterday, Verstappen?), Nico seems unable to do it with any subtlety.
Nico is another Massa I'm afraid, quick in the right car but without that champion's final edge.
A bit unfair on Massa, I feel.
He would have been champion was it not for Hamilton's mate slowing to allow him to take the position he needed on the final lap in that final race in Brazil...
I don't think he's ever been the same since that bit of car hit him, though, although it's been good to see him show flashes of his old self in the Williams.
M.
And Hamilton would have already been champion but for a very unfair penalty at Spa and other bad luck through the year. Were there no occasions when Massa's team mate helped him? F1 is a bit like cycling, it is a team sport that has individual winners and champions.
If he ever had the spark I think the thing that killed it was years of toeing the line at Ferrari in Michael's wake.
They were dishing out penalties for forcing another car to go off track in GP2 and GP3 so the stewards were being very consistent with Rosberg. in GP2 they actually did it to someone on the first lap, which I thought was very harsh.
Not really as there is nothing in the rules to relax them for phases of a race, if anything first lap the rule is more important as crowding out on the first couple of corners could generate a pile up.
This is one of those rules fed down to federations and is in our MSA Blue Book, pretty much never seen it invoked though in club level motorsport.
I like Nico but sorry he is looking increasingly second rate and frankly is flattered by that car, decent one lap pace but just not a racer.
I'll say it again Nico likes to cheat. Had he attempted to make the corner with max on the outside (clip the apex as per the racing line) and then opened his steering and let the car run wide after the corner, it would be seen as firm but fair racing, but no, he decides to not take the corner at all !
Didn't you see him claiming it was on the lockstops and understeering like a pig
Nico has lost the mental edge - he knows it and Hamilton knows it!
Ricciardo was different - he went to the usual racing line for that corner and so Max had to lift to avoid contact. Ditto Hamilton in Austin vs Rosberg. The Rosberg incident yesterday he was off the usual racing line and seemingly didn't attempt to turn - he claims because he would have locked up, Max felt he pushed him off the track.
That's what I was saying "Many of the drivers can do this and be hard but fair (Ricciardo did it to someone yesterday, Verstappen?),"
Horner put it well in saying that the accepted practice is to lock the fronts up, make lots of smoke and fuss and make the stewards very aware that you "couldn't stop" and achieve the same result without the penalty. But as said before he seems unable to be subtle!
- - - Updated - - -
Can't tell if you believe him or this post is sarcastic? Edit: I have seen your link to Sniff, glad we're on the same page
Fantastic GP2 races this weekend. What was a really unfair penalty was on Gasly being completely excluded for his fire extinguisher
being empty at the end of the race after it went off during the race.
I can understand if there was a standing rule that if it happens you have to pit for safety reasons but to penalise him after the race
because the car didint comply with safety regs seems utterly pointless.
If it was because the car was underweight they might have had a case especially as he had taken 3rd place
by about a 10th of second.
When Rossi did that to Marquez last year he got significantly more than 5 seconds he got a World Championship title
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Changed my mind.
For one on radio: The Vettel undercut sketch was one of the most entertaining moments of the race.
Second one Rosberg: That was a deliberate block pass. In F1 an unsporting nono.
The 5 secs penalty was imo befitting the crime this race. The two riders points befitting the fact he is a repeat offender.
I know innit. What an idiot he is to suggest that when there is a camera on his shoulder recording his every input.
Massa would indeed have been champion in 2008 if Hamilton had finished below 5th.
As it was Hamilton and Vettel were battling for 4th and Glock was in 7th when Hamilton and Vettel pitted for intermediates as it had become a wet race. Glock chose to take the risk to stay on dry tyres, climbing to 4th as he had not pitted. His gamble did not pay off and he was overtaken by both Vettel and Hamilton giving the latter the title.
To say that Glock slowed to allow Hamilton the position is utter nonsense.
Last edited by JeremyO; 1st August 2016 at 20:59.
Excellent
Quite
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
No, it's an interpretation.
His tyres were shot for sure, but you wonder if he'd have fought harder against someone other than his mate who would take the championship as a result of going by...
Anyway, water under the bridge, but to write Massa off as fast only on his day still seems a little harsh.
M
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Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Slightly off-topic, but what do people think of the 2017, wider-tyre look. Maybe I'm shallow but I think they look like proper F1 cars!
I agree its like the good old days with properly fat tyres. I believe it will do nothing whatsoever to make F1 more of a spectacle or more competitive though, if anything the swing back towards chassis domination rather than powertrain domination will just favour Red Bull again as it was a few years back. The right thing to have done would have been to have helped the weaker teams develop their powertrain faster by ditching the stupid powertrain points nonsense, Mercedes got a jump on everyone else but the stupidity of the rule set meant that others couldn't do the big push development like they would have done in the past to catch up. Well that is my opinion anyway.
The wider tyres are just a push to try and increase mechanical grip over aero grip aren't they?
Anything that makes it easier to follow a car closely through a fast corner has got to be good.
Mind you, if it increases cornering speeds too much, I can see them reversing it again for safety reasons...
Not if it makes overtaking more difficult still. The wider a car is, the further the overtake needs be off the fastest line.
Reducing aero down force is a far more effective path: We are after all dealing with racing CARS, not flying inverted airplanes close to the ground with skid plates serving to keep it at minimum flight height! At the moment the rules need to specify a minimum wear to the latter!!
Any more down force than the weight makes overtaking more difficult. There should imo be no more down force than needed to counteract lift caused by air underneath the vehicle.
Keeping the cars 'narrow' and limiting the down force is the path to more overtaking, more racing.
Ditto the overload of artificial limitations. The current set results in drivers going around in a game of strategy. They hardly ever drive as fast as they or their cars can. Currently it is a 'race' about how far/fast they can go within a set of artificial parameters.
The new concept of hybrid cars already is fundamental sustainable technology. Racing within class parameters like displacement capacity already is fundamentally about efficiency.
Restrictions on the amount of replacement parts allowed imo do serve a good purpose as they level the playing field somewhat. Forget all the tokens. By all means develop the tech to the edge with going over that and it breaking resulting in a starting grid penalty.
Glock and Trulli were the only point scorers who remained on dry tyres in the final few laps of the race and both dropped 16 seconds on the final lap which allowed both Vettel and Hamilton to make the overtake.
Not much happening during the 'holiday', so something a little different. The University of Sheffield has calculated the top 50 greatest F1 drivers, based on results, how good the car was, how good they were compared to their team mate etc.
redbull.com article here: http://www.redbull.com/uk/en/motorsp...ain-uk-2409443
The top 50:
1 Juan Manuel Fangio 2 Alain Prost 3 Michael Schumacher (pre-2006) 4 Jim Clark 5 Ayrton Senna 6 Fernando Alonso 7 Nelson Piquet 8 Jackie Stewart 9 Emerson Fittipaldi 10 Sebastian Vettel 11 Christian Fittipaldi 12 Lewis Hamilton 13 Graham Hill 14 Dan Gurney 15 Jody Scheckter 16 Jenson Button 17 Marc Surer 18 Damon Hill 19 Louis Rosier 20 Elio de Angelis 21 Ronnie Peterson 22 Nino Farina 23 Nick Heidfeld 24 Pedro Rodríguez 25 John Watson 26 Robert Kubica 27 Carlos Reutemann 28 Tom Pryce 29 Stirling Moss 30 Martin Brundle 31 Rubens Barrichello 32 Daniel Ricciardo 33 Alan Jones 34 Kimi Raikkonen 35 Patrick Depailler 36 Carlos Pace 37 Richie Ginther 38 Denny Hulme 39 Thierry Boutsen 40 Mike Hawthorn 41 Jean-Pierre Beltoise 42 Heinz-Harald Frentzen 43 Prince Bira 44 Keke Rosberg 45 Clay Regazzoni 46 Luigi Fagioli 47 Jack Brabham 48 Jacques Villeneuve 49 Nico Rosberg 50 Phil Hill
No Mika Häkkinen in the list?
Marc Surer??????!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Good driver for sure, but HOW does he make the list? Best result I can find isn't even on a podium!
M.
My instant reaction too, and I'm a huge JB fan but not sure he should be that high. And Moss, 29th?
Publicity for Sheffield University 1 : 0 Addition to human knowledge
Apart from the obvious absence of Hakkinen, I notice Mansell also isn't in the top 50. Lauda was 147th, apparently; shame I can't find that extended list.
I think it's as valid as any other top 50 though, and it's interesting to see a list where relative car performance is taken into account. I suppose you can get a feel for its 'bias' in the placings of Damon Hill, Jenson Button and to some extent Alain Prost.
What a load of tosh, anyone can produce a list of drivers and then load it to produce the results they want.
someone has already proved statistically that if Hamilton wins one more wdc he will be at the top, personally I'm a keke fan
Jacques but no Gilles
Schumacher said in the past that the seasons when him and Hakkinen battled it out was his pinnacle in terms of competition and driving and that no one pushed him harder. I certainly haven't seen a season since when two drivers pushed the limits that far, I can remember seeing both of them 4 wheel drift the cars and everyone tells us of course that you can't 4 wheel drift modern aero race cars. For this reason for me it is utterly absurd for a listing of top F1 drivers to not include Hakkinen, in terms of talent alone he was in the top 5 of the past 20 years.
Gilles is idolised by many, but he didn't actually win that much...
Although that doesn't seem to be that important to this list!
M
Stirling Moss in 29th. Nick Heidfeld was ok in F1 - didn't win anything, had 13 podiums - but he shouldn't be finishing up the table higher than Moss!
Years ago I had to find the photos for an article on 'the top 100 most beautiful cars' in a popular British car magazine. Everyone had to do their top 10 but when I sorted through the results, there were only 70 cars on the list (nearly everyone included Miura, 911, E-Type and Gullwing). I remember getting the 300 SLR Uhlenhaut coupé into about 10th place, the Giulia Sprint Speciale quite high up, and hiding an Austin A35 in there somewhere.
I can't explain why Marc Surer is in that list though. 82 starts, 17 points.
"A man of little significance"
Looks like having a serious accident that stops you scoring F1 points even though in a good car counts against you quite a bit (Moss, Lauda).
Fangio at the top is surely correct. A list of best drivers (not just F1) would surely have Moss near the top. Fangio certainly rated him that highly.
Christian Fittipaldi ahead of Lewis Hamilton..............only thing I remember him for was colliding with his team mate on
the last lap on the finishing straight at Monza in 1993 and doing a complete flip and then crossing the line
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