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Thread: LiIon car batteries

  1. #1
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    LiIon car batteries

    Since a lead/acid car batery weighs .... lead and LiPo tech becoming ever more accessible I have been looking into possible replacement of the former by the latter.

    Since LiIon has a higher cold crank amperage, it is possible to fit a smaller capacity battery depending on the number of electric users the car has.
    Mine have very little, basically just the lighting.

    Looks rather attractive; longer life, WAY lower weight. It looks like I can loose 10 kilo just by a battery swap and the COG of that sits well ahead of the front wheels!!

    Two aspects have me doubting the wisdom:
    I crashed a model airplane crash and the battery(liPo) went up into rather spectacular fashion.
    That battery needed a special charger, so how would this be in combination with the car´s charging system?

    Does any of you have first hand experience, like on the motorcycle wher the weight gain is more noticeable?
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 15th October 2015 at 21:13.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  2. #2
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    I've been reading several threads on Seloc re. Li car batteries where they are particularly popular. The feed back I get is the batteries charge fine from a standard car system and a generic separate charger. I assume that the batteries must have some electronics added to sort this issue out. However it's not all sweetness and light.... You will need to redo the battery fixing brackets to cope with the smaller battery and, if the battery is located outside the engine bay then you need to note that Li batteries can be damaged if you try to charge at less than 0 degrees; so if the battery's in the boot then there MIGHT be issues in the depths of winter (I assume if the engine was in the engine bay then it would be kept nice and warm). Apart from that though I hear good reports.

  3. #3
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    Just another note...

    A recommended make/brand

    http://www.competitionsupplies.com/e...ithium-battery

    Not tried my self but the Lotus contingent give them a good recommendation.

  4. #4
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Horrendously expensive which needs to be considered against any perceived advantages.

  5. #5
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    Don't even use them in my track car or motorbike since I am not in competition.

    Worth it if every ounce and inch matters - that's all as far as I can see - considering the 4X price premium.

    B

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Horrendously expensive which needs to be considered against any perceived advantages.
    When you look at it as just a battery the price is uncompetetive.
    When you look at the weight gain it is rather cheap. Apart from dicarding the spare wheel and stripping of insulation material, there is little you can do to save weight for a tenner per kilo and just about nothing that far up front in many cars.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  7. #7
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    Or shed some of that body fat and have a 'number 2' before taking the car/bike out for a run :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by solwisesteve View Post
    I've been reading several threads on Seloc re. Li car batteries where they are particularly popular. The feed back I get is the batteries charge fine from a standard car system and a generic separate charger. I assume that the batteries must have some electronics added to sort this issue out. However it's not all sweetness and light.... You will need to redo the battery fixing brackets to cope with the smaller battery and, if the battery is located outside the engine bay then you need to note that Li batteries can be damaged if you try to charge at less than 0 degrees; so if the battery's in the boot then there MIGHT be issues in the depths of winter (I assume if the engine was in the engine bay then it would be kept nice and warm). Apart from that though I hear good reports.
    Thanks.

    The bracket thing is easily enough solved. There are even manufacturers offering spacers with the battery so it will fit in the standard box.

    The sub zero is a bit more of a worry, even though I live in Andalucia.

    Yes, the batteries have integrated electronics, LEDs and all to indicate the state of charge. Was not sure about what that electronics does but apparently it is the car charge system adapter.

    Obviously the 10 kilo or so weight saving is not much use for a 2 ton offroader or school run suv. It is a bit more effective in a 750 kilo fun car.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  9. #9
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    When you look at it as just a battery the price is uncompetetive.
    When you look at the weight gain it is rather cheap. Apart from dicarding the spare wheel and stripping of insulation material, there is little you can do to save weight for a tenner per kilo and just about nothing that far up front in many cars.
    Stop eating pies = easiest way to lighten the load......

    Strange you would splash lunatic money on a battery yet ridicule many here for their watch tastes.

  10. #10
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    They use a lithium battery in the M4 which gives a 50% weight saving but costs £750 you also need a special charger, depends on how keen you are to save weight and how deep your pockets are!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Stop eating pies = easiest way to lighten the load......
    No doubt about it, and more sex works too.
    Less pies and more sex it is then.
    Thanks for that!


    Strange you would splash lunatic money on a battery yet ridicule many here for their watch tastes.
    Wow, you do need some perspective.
    You are arm flapping about 100 euros more for a way better battery versus several thoúsand Euros more for a way worse time keeper.
    This aside from you not getting my point about watches at all apparently even though I have time and again written quite clearly that you dó get value for money with Veblen watches; just not time keeping instrument value.

    Anyway, seems a trail worth exploring when the current 11.6 kilo battery needs replacing.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  12. #12
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    No doubt about it, and more sex works too.

    Wow, you do need some perspective.
    You are arm flapping about 100 euros more for a way better battery versus several thoúsand Euros more for a way worse time keeper.
    This aside from you not getting my point about watches at all apparently even though I have time and again written quite clearly that you dó get value for money with Veblen watches; just not time keeping instrument value.

    Anyway, seems a trail worth exploring when the current 11.6 kilo battery needs replacing.
    For the pukka lightweight batteries (voltphreaks as an example) you are talking 10 times the cost+ to that of a conventional battery.

    Let's not spoil a car thread with your usual poison eh?
    Last edited by Chris_in_the_UK; 15th October 2015 at 15:45.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    No doubt about it, and more sex works too.
    Less pies and more sex it is then.
    Thanks for that!


    Anyway, seems a trail worth exploring when the current 11.6 kilo battery needs replacing.
    Careful! A newborn baby weighs in the region of 8lb give or take, the Mrs is bound to put on a stone and a half. Then watch the baby grow up...... Given the tendency to obesity in kids in modern society t'nipper is bound to be 14st by the time he / she is 14 which is going to undo all your weight saving calculations! Then you will need a people carrier to cart it all around!!!! ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    For the pukka lightweight batteries (voltphreaks as an example) you are talking 10 times the cost+ to that of a conventional battery.

    Let's not spoil a car thread with your usual poison eh?
    To be fair, you steered it that way first Chris...

  15. #15
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    Thanks all

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post

    Let's not spoil a car thread with your usual poison eh?
    Why did YOÚ feel the need to bring it up then???



    For the pukka lightweight batteries (voltphreaks as an example) you are talking 10 times the cost+ to that of a conventional battery.
    The ones I am looking at cost about 3- 5 times, depending on whether I look at the cold crank amps or the Ah, for 70-80% less weight.
    Since I do not need the Ah, the extra cost will be about 100-120 euros for 10 kilo less.
    Usually weight saving costs a lot more.

    Sofar no problems apart from set ideas apparently.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattlad View Post
    Careful! A newborn baby weighs in the region of 8lb give or take, the Mrs is bound to put on a stone and a half. Then watch the baby grow up...... Given the tendency to obesity in kids in modern society t'nipper is bound to be 14st by the time he / she is 14 which is going to undo all your weight saving calculations! Then you will need a people carrier to cart it all around!!!! ;-)
    We already have a break with plenty of space.
    My 13 y.o. does free style climbing for a hobby and is rather dry.

    I may take the rear bench out of the fun project to discourage passengers :-)
    Cheap weight saving too.

    The rear window is almost flat, so am thinking about perspex. Weighs just under half of what glass weighs; reduces about 1.3 kilo per m2 per mm. = 6.5 kilo per m2 for the usual 5mm.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  17. #17
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonM View Post
    To be fair, you steered it that way first Chris...
    I sensed some inevitability.................

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  19. #19
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    I sensed some inevitability.................
    Wow, you make me blush.
    No idea I was such a presence in your imagination.

    Meanwhile I have found what seems to be the straight replacement. Can hardly believe it is 10.2 kilos lighter and does the same for not a too exagerated uplift. Including shipping since it is so lightweight.

    Edit; 10.6 kilos.
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 15th October 2015 at 18:15.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  20. #20
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    LiPo tend to be favoured for extremely high discharge applications; short term bursts if you like. However they self discharge faster than any other type battery and can be unstable. Google LiPo explosions!

    LiFe or Li-Ion, what you have in your IPhone and Makita power drill, are medium to high discharge, much lower self discharge rate and very much safer.

    I wouldn't like to say for sure but I expect they are using Lithium Ion for car batteries.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Wow, you make me blush.
    No idea I was such a presence in your imagination.

    Meanwhile I have found what seems to be the straight replacement. Can hardly believe it is 10.2 kilos lighter and does the same for not a too exagerated uplift. Including shipping since it is so lightweight.

    Edit; 10.6 kilos.
    You are not - seriously.

    You are very predictable though.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeOut View Post
    LiPo tend to be favoured for extremely high discharge applications; short term bursts if you like. However they self discharge faster than any other type battery and can be unstable. Google LiPo explosions!

    LiFe or Li-Ion, what you have in your IPhone and Makita power drill, are medium to high discharge, much lower self discharge rate and very much safer.

    I wouldn't like to say for sure but I expect they are using Lithium Ion for car batteries.
    I stand corected.
    Thank you for pointing this out.

    Modified the topic starter.
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 15th October 2015 at 21:14.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  23. #23
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    Yep lithium ion for car batteries, special charger needed as a normal one charges at +14v which will fry a lithium ion jobby. Half the weight but 4x the cost although supposed to last twice as long as a lead battery!

  24. #24
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    Needs careful consideration of the vehicle charging system to ensure compatibility.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Needs careful consideration of the vehicle charging system to ensure compatibility.
    Yep, You can't just throw one into anything!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobdog View Post
    Yep lithium ion for car batteries, special charger needed as a normal one charges at +14v which will fry a lithium ion jobby.
    This electronics is integrated in the battery and warranted.

    Half the weight but 4x the cost although supposed to last twice as long as a lead battery!
    Half the weight and twice the life equals four times cost

    It is however way less than half the weight; more like a quarter for the same Ah but that gives double the crank amps.
    I do not need the full Ah but do need the cold crank amps and then the weight is 15%!!!! only.
    So in my case a sixth of the weight, twice the logivity for triple the price.

    Most likely the weight reduction will over the life of the battery save more than the extra cost in fuel consumption reduction.
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 15th October 2015 at 21:27.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  27. #27
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    This electronics is integrated in the battery and warranted.

    Half the weight and twice the life equals four times cost

    It is however way less than half the weight; more like a quarter for the same Ah but that gives double the crank amps.
    I do not need the full Ah but do need the cold crank amps and then the weight is 15%!!!! only.
    So in my case a sixth of the weight, twice the logivity for triple the price.

    Most likely the weight reduction will over the life of the battery save more than the extra cost in fuel consumption reduction.
    You are simply chasing shadows and arguing the toss on the back of a veiled 'any experience' thread.

    As usual.
    Last edited by Chris_in_the_UK; 15th October 2015 at 21:38.

  28. #28
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    I'm liking the man maths! :o)

    It appeals to my inner geek, but the sensible part of me says I'm struggling to see the benefit for the cost.

    I also can't help but wonder if these are so great, why aren't manufacturers falling over themselves to fit them to new vehicles?

    As usual, the motorsport world has solved this problem with smaller and lighter, albeit lower Ah, lead acid/calcium batteries. They would probably suit a classic rally car fine.

    I think the L-Ion batteries would be too high maintenance personally, especially for the modest weight eduction.
    Last edited by Tooks; 16th October 2015 at 09:53.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    This electronics is integrated in the battery and warranted.



    Half the weight and twice the life equals four times cost

    It is however way less than half the weight; more like a quarter for the same Ah but that gives double the crank amps.
    I do not need the full Ah but do need the cold crank amps and then the weight is 15%!!!! only.
    So in my case a sixth of the weight, twice the logivity for triple the price.

    Most likely the weight reduction will over the life of the battery save more than the extra cost in fuel consumption reduction.
    Well go and buy it then, but speaking as an owner it is only half the weight, in my case 60lb down to 30lb and the car is set up to accomodate it, I did'nt realise you were an expert and thought you were asking for advice! Go for it buddy!

  30. #30
    I have been using one in my harley for the past year and am more than happy, simple bolt in and add some foam to stop it moving and with a shocking weight reduction ( pun intended ) 8kg for a stock battery costing €200 ish compared to the lithium that weighs 1kg and costs €150 from zodiac with 330 CCA so will more than likely start your cars too as it turns over my 1400 V Twin with high compression pistons

  31. #31
    http://catalog.zodiac.nl/en/Catalog/...S/Product.aspx

    I know these are for bikes but they are the cheepest and I bet they start a car

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Schuhren View Post
    http://catalog.zodiac.nl/en/Catalog/...S/Product.aspx

    I know these are for bikes but they are the cheepest and I bet they start a car
    Ha Andy!!!
    Great to see you here; the winding stems for the Molnija work a treat.

    Thanks for the link and not taking that bet. I agree. It is an 1108cc. four pot with non too high c.r. so éasy going.
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 16th October 2015 at 00:59.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  33. #33
    I bet it will spin that little thing up no end
    Molly stems not made one of them for a while lol that was a good little job

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