Reply With QuoteI'm no expert but I asked builders a similar question in my last place. I recall the suggestion was to replace the long horizontal timbers with steels. All got a bit expensive so didn't bother.
Hoping to pick the collective mind here as I can't find anything like this online, though I'm sure it's a common setup.
After a busy summer of DIY I'm left with the last big job on the list, converting the loft into two rooms.
Currently it's boarded and has a loft hatch but features some very awkward roof supports...
Aside from the one which supports onto the brick wall in the centre the other two v shaped ones support onto a beam that rests on all the ceiling joists. Ceiling joists I know aren't meant to take much weight anyway so I'll be replacing those with the necessary sized beams.
Does anyone know how to go about replacing all the supports so I can walk from one end to other without having to be a contortionist? Or who to contact? I did try a couple of loft conversion companies but both guys seemed funny, guarded when I asked questions and looked like I'd insulted their mother when the head height wasn't up to building regs.
I'd be grateful for any input.
Cheers,
Kev
I'm no expert but I asked builders a similar question in my last place. I recall the suggestion was to replace the long horizontal timbers with steels. All got a bit expensive so didn't bother.
It's difficult to tell what's going on here from those pics.
Do you know why the 'new' timber was installed in the first place. By you or the previous owner? Are the brick supports sitting on a (new?) steel beam or are they original to the building and come off a load bearing wall below? 'New' timber here too?
Got any more pics? (From outside too?) How old is the building? What size are the ceiling joists? How is the central beam perpendicular to the ceiling joists fixed? Are the ceiling joists notched into this beam or do the ceiling joists sit below this beam?
The v shaped beams look a bit Heath Robinson and seem non structural (maybe bracing for some reason tho?) and may have been installed to help support the central beam and in turn help support the flooring rather than offer any support to the roof timbers. Too many questions, sorry....
That just looks odd, not standard at all.
this is basic preventative roof support, there has probably been movement/bowing in the long lengths running wall to wall, supporting the roof, the cheapest and easiest way to control this is to truss it the way it has been done, those bricks will be sitting over a wall I assume, to give added support the the new wood.
now, technically you could remove all of it, and the roof could be fine, but someone has it there for a reason and I would not be removing it at all, unless I was going to replace those long lengths with steels, I would instal the steels before under the excisting wood, making sure they were sitting on plinth/brick in the end walls then remove the supports, but leave the long lengths wood in place as they are doing no harm.
this is of course if you wish to do this DIY, and skip building regs, and use it as a loft space.
but to be fair it would be bad practice, as the joists in the ceiling are not designed for any kind of major weight so would need to be re-enforced, again with a central steel running wall to wall, but that would raise your floor level which in turn will reduce head height, and increases costs.
at which point you ask yourself if it is worth it, because you may just as well involve a structural engineer to asses it, get some plans done, and convert it properly, you wont add anything in value to the house apart from what you spent, but it will give you an extra room.
edit: in my experience this looks like an ex local authority house, 1930's mid terrace maybe that has suffered from the roof sagging, and this has been corrected by the council using timber as a fix, it will be solid for years to come, but it will sag if removed after a little time, IMHO use it for storage and that's it, all you will ever get from it, as doing a proper extension will not give you enough room to justify doing it, by the time you put the stairs in downstairs.
Last edited by soundood; 6th September 2015 at 23:49.
Originally Posted by soundood
Beat me to it as I was typing :-)
Seriously and for the safety of your family and house get a structural engineer out. The number of structural surveys I have done and seen all sorts of wonders that didn't provide anything like what they are supposed is crazy.
£250 ? for a quick report goes a long way and give you piece of mind.
I was an old school senior structural technician for 20 years and still get involved about once a month.
Good luck.
No idea why they were installed, wasn't by me.
The central beam that the v supports sit on sits on the ceiling joists perpendicular, not notched. The ceiling joists are 2" by 4" and span 4m wall to wall.
The brick supports are on a brick wall that goes all the way down.
I was thinking that once these supports were sorted, ie replaced by something less obtrusive and steel then I could replace the ceiling joists altogether with thicker joists.
The rooms below could easily lose a foot of height if I were to lower the ceilings.
The overall space would be about 8m by 3.5m, so one 3m x 3.5m room, stairs and a 4m x 3.5m room. The stairs are going in anyway but I thought for a few grand more my kids would appreciate a properly done play room more than a rolex on my wrist!
I had no idea such advice would be only a few hundred. I had no intention of going forward without proper advice but your comments have given me some direction.
I'll be doing most of the work myself where possible to save costs but where experts are needed I'll pay without reservations.
Does anyone have any recommendations of someone around the Hull area?
Thanks for the comments so far. Much appreciated!
by what I can see this is a good floor area, you say the rooms below and losing a foot of height, but even with that going by the pictures you still would not have enough 'useful space' that you could stand up in, that is using your child in the picture for scale,
unless you have done this before, and by the sounds of things you haven't, lowering a ceiling by 1 foot say is a massive job, believe me once you start ripping those ceilings out your house will look like a war zone, then there is the issue of where to put your joists,
I suspect they are running across the roof space from gutter to gutter say, these in themselves will form part of the roof structure, stopping the roof from falling flat on itself, whereas your new joists will have to be set into the walls with a steel running long ways wall to wall, giving no support to the roof.
it would almost be easier putting a dorma onto it so it could support the remaining roof angle, giving you a useful space up there.
a few grand more is not going to cut it in my opinion, and by what you describe you are already into 5 figures, without any real space gain, and doing most of the graft yourself.
as a DIY job I would replace those beams for steels, then run electrics, board it out and decorate giving yourself a free space for use as a playroom, but I would never have a bunch of adults up there say having a party.
Last edited by soundood; 7th September 2015 at 08:37.
Do you think at some stage there where vertical supports trussing up the main roof beams? There are in my roof, maybe they were removed, the roof the sagged and what you see now is the fix?
I think the bricks are the original vertical supports, they are placed where the horizontal beams cross over. I think the 'v' shaped 'inverted trusses' are a later addition to prevent sagging. If the house is a semi or one in a similar row of houses it would be interesting to know what the arrangement is in those other roof spaces.
Last edited by seikopath; 7th September 2015 at 08:39.
Good luck everybody. Have a good one.
ideally you need some steels like these
^^ im all for having a go but that doesnt look like DIY to me
Good luck everybody. Have a good one.
My previous house had simple A frames for the roof and the surveyor recommended adding something like what you've got.
All the builders I spoke to decided it was surveyor arse covering / feeling the need to say something and not to bother. This may be why you have these but I'd definitely invest a few hundred in a structural engineer.
If you want to do a diy job you could put timbers on top of the existing ceiling joist at 90 degrees to them which will help spread the weight,as for the joists holding the roof they need some support,you could take them out and just leave it but it's a bit risky
There isn't enough information here for anyone to make educated guesses about what it required. You need to employ a struct eng, architect, building surveyor or loft specialist. You don't need a structural report, you just need advice on whether or not it is possible to convert your loft.
The structure is only one factor and to comply with building regs you'll need to consider insulation, access, means of escape etc. Loft conversions generally start about £10K for a very simple one.
For what it's worth, I've done about 20 loft conversions and I wouldn't even begin to make any recommendations here without seeing it.
Last edited by benny.c; 7th September 2015 at 09:56.
Finally took the plunge on this just over a year ago, lots of calculations, talks to building regs and what seemed like infinte mess.
Reading this thread again afterwards, a lot of really great advice it just took me a while to put the pieces together for our space.
This timber skeleton picture was taken 27th July 2019.
Steel beams ran the width of the house, joined in the middle over the internal brick wall
Fast forward after all the insulated boards, vertical supports and the Covid induced plaster drought. SWMBO finally got to hammer out the painting last week.
My eldest's room, can you guess his favourite sport?
And the younger lad went to sleep without complaints for the first time in ages last night. What a slog it was but we're pleased, certainly tested the limit of our DIY skills!
Looks like a cracking result, did you lower the ceilings in the upstairs rooms?
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Yes, luckily quite high ceilings in these old houses so set the steels 40cm under the existing ceiling, with the bigger floor joists probably only gained about 20cm but it made all the difference up there.
Great stuff sir. Wondered what the green tick (indicating I’m commented on something) was all about.
Looks like a great result and I hope the structural survey / structural engineering help advice turned out well and reasonably priced. Unsung heroes lol.. architects get all the glory :-)
What a great result - and after what looks like a lot of planning and effort, you seem to have not just got all that extra space, but also tidied up the structural side of the house too.
I can empathise with the mess, we've just had our entire roof slates removed and renewed and that was messy enough without breaking through the ceilings as you have.
Well done on what looks like a really good result there.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Thanks all, came in at just under 12k all in which is pretty much a shoestring for these things. Mostly just materials and unavoidable professional costs like structural calcs and building regs. With the exception of the plasterer we did everything ourselves. I'd absorbed the advice and forgotten about this thread but mad to think it was 5 years ago we started thinking about it.
Did you Install the stairs yourself? Any pics?
Love me a good DIY project
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The landing is supported by joist hangers on two sides, temporary stairs in situ here.
Had to go space saver to account for the angle. Haven't quite finished painting the middle bit yet
Are the wooden beams in this pic the original ones shown in the pics right at the beginning?My eldest's room, can you guess his favourite sport?
Yeah, the roof trusses are supported vertically straight onto the new steel to take the load off those so we could remove the v shaped supports (which were a chocolate fireguard anyway as they transfered any load onto totally inadequate ceiling joists).
Gave 'em a blast with the sander and a few coats of varnish, adds a bit of character I think.
Good job, though have to admit I'd have moved house to get more space :)
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