Ebay does not protect sellers! Beware of buyers fraud.

[tllw]

I've sold Barbour jacket on Ebay with my relatively young account (had about 10 sales on it).
3 weeks after he received it, The "gentlemen" who bought it opened a case claiming the jacket isn't genuine.

I immediately replied to him - sending copies of the original receipt. As well I proposed him to return the jacket - with me covering the shipping.
He didn't reply to my messages.

In a few days, eBay "canceled" the sale, taking the whole amount directly from my paypal! The buyer wasn't obligated to return the item.

I've sent several messages to ebay and paypal supports. Including proofs that the very same jacket is purchased from respected Barbour dealer
Not a single reply! Nothing. They ignored every message i sent.

I've also wrote to the buyer, asking him to return an item he never paid. The asshole scammer sent me just one liner - "I gave the jacket to charity"

After a quick google search I realized this is a common scam scheme. The buyer can report the item 90 days after he receive it. Ebay won't bother to check and will always take the side of the buyer.
As whole, After I lost the jacket, the shipping fees and the eBay charges - I'm done with Ebay.

And I won't recommend Ebay to anyone!

[markrlondon]

This is very poor. eBay are supposed to take notice of evidence on both sides but I've heard of reports, like yours, where they fail to do this. You really need to try and speak to a human at eBay.

If you're feeling brave and are willing to risk some more money, a County Court summons against eBay and/or PayPal and the scammer might focus some minds. But it's an even bet as to whether or not you'll actually get any money back. You have evidence in your favour that the jacket was genuine so, in theory, it should be possible to get a judgment in your favour. But actually getting what you are owed might be more difficult even with a judgment.

In your position I think I'd try harder to talk to a human at eBay. If that did not produce results, I might be tempted to go the Country Court approach and keep a blog about it, publishing as much as possible to prove your case and to show eBay's negligence, and eventually naming names.

[tekbow]

That is a better reason to avoid eBay (as a seller) than the last thread we had on it.

Sorry you got hit so hard, my sympathy is with you

[wiganliam]

i would only sell or buy on e bay using the collect in person option,i know it gives you a smaller area coverage as a lot of people wont be in travelling distance ,but at least the deal is done face to face and the goods can be inspected and payment made in cash,far to many people pull the paypal cash back scam and paypal nearly always side with the buyer

[mostly_lurking]

I can only sympathise. eBay and PayPal seller protection is woefully inadequate. From experience, the rights and wrongs of any case seem to be largely irrelevant to them if you are a seller.

[mostly_lurking]

i would only sell or buy on e bay using the collect in person option,i know it gives you a smaller area coverage as a lot of people wont be in travelling distance ,but at least the deal is done face to face and the goods can be inspected and payment made in cash,far to many people pull the paypal cash back scam and paypal nearly always side with the buyer

Collection in person can be used by scammers. They only need to claim that they didn't receive the goods and eBay will just refund them. You really need to use a tracked delivery service to have any chance of success in any dispute.

[tllw]

Their phone support is not existing. After I've burnt 10s of Euros waiting on the phone, to hear that "yes, yes, we will check the case", I gave up.


I'm not British, so the County Court or the police aren't option. At least, I'll warn everyone I can - don't sale on eBay.

[markrlondon]

Collection in person can be used by scammers. They only need to claim that they didn't receive the goods and eBay will just refund them. You really need to use a tracked delivery service to have any chance of success in any dispute.

This won't work if the buyer paid in cash (which is the only sensible way to take payment when an item is being collected). This is because with a cash payment there will be no record of a PayPal payment and thus there will be no eBay/PayPal buyer protection available at all.

[Montybaber]

I hate ebay and havent used it in years, sorry mate it sucks!

[markrlondon]

Their phone support is not existing. After I've burnt 10s of Euros waiting on the phone, to hear that "yes, yes, we will check the case", I gave up.

I'm sorry to hear this.

I'm not British, so the County Court or the police aren't option.

Was the buyer in the UK?

[tllw]

Thanks for the kind words, guys.

I'm sorry to hear this.

Was the buyer in the UK?

Yes, he was English. Account with almost no feedback.

[markrlondon]

Yes, he was English. Account with almost no feedback.

That really complicates things.

Well, it is still the case that eBay have been negligent, based upon what you've said. You might still have a claim against them in the civil courts in your own country. I can only imagine that it's probably more hassle than it could be worth, though. :-(

[the_soon_to_be]

Ebay has gone massively downhill, the listing fees are crazy now with them taking 10% upto a £250 maximum, selling is becoming a very expensive game.
I think I'll stick to just using it to buy good or sell items of no dramatic value

[tllw]

That really complicates things.

Well, it is still the case that eBay have been negligent, based upon what you've said. You might still have a claim against them in the civil courts in your own country. I can only imagine that it's probably more hassle than it could be worth, though. :-(

Exactly, It's totally not worth it.

Ebay has gone massively downhill, the listing fees are crazy now with them taking 10% upto a £250 maximum, selling is becoming a very expensive game.
I think I'll stick to just using it to buy good or sell items of no dramatic value

I will even say - never sell anything you aren't ready to throw to the bin there.

[PhilipK]

3 weeks after he received it, The "gentlemen" who bought it opened a case claiming the jacket isn't genuine.

Did he raise the dispute through eBay or through PayPal? The burden of proof as to whether an item is genuine differs between the two - for a PayPal dispute, the buyer needs to prove that the item is fake, whereas for an eBay dispute the seller has to prove that the item is genuine.

I immediately replied to him - sending copies of the original receipt. As well I proposed him to return the jacket - with me covering the shipping.

Did you respond directly to him, or did you do it through the eBay messaging system?

I've sent several messages to ebay and paypal supports. Including proofs that the very same jacket is purchased from respected online Barbour dealer (outdoor & country).
Not a single reply! Nothing. They ignored every message i sent.

Once a dispute has been closed, it is very difficult to get them to re-open it, which is why it is so important to respond promptly, and through the dispute system (not directly to the seller).

The buyer can report the item 90 days after he receive it.

With recent changes, buyers actually have 180 days in which to raise a Significantly Not As Described (SNAD) or Item Not Received (INR) dispute.

I'm not British, so the County Court or the police aren't option.

Perhaps it would help if you updated the "Location" field in your profile?

[P9CLY]

Don't use eBay for this.

[Neilw3030]

I recently bought a rado watch that was listed as bnib with tags and genuine. When it came it looked pukka but when I did some homework it turned out to be a fake. The seller told me he was leaving the country then stopped responding. Lodged a case with ebay and after about two weeks sent me a postage label to return it. That postage label Id had to be logged in the postal system so ebay could see it was returned then waited a week or more before they issued a refund. I could see on the tracking that it was never delivered to the seller cos he had gone. So I don't see how ebay would take money from you without the goods being returned or at least within their return system

[tllw]

Did he raise the dispute through eBay or through PayPal? The burden of proof as to whether an item is genuine differs between the two - for a PayPal dispute, the buyer needs to prove that the item is fake, whereas for an eBay dispute the seller has to prove that the item is genuine.

Did you respond directly to him, or did you do it through the eBay messaging system?

Once a dispute has been closed, it is very difficult to get them to re-open it, which is why it is so important to respond promptly, and through the dispute system (not directly to the seller).

With recent changes, buyers actually have 180 days in which to raise a Significantly Not As Described (SNAD) or Item Not Received (INR) dispute.

Perhaps it would help if you updated the "Location" field in your profile?

The dispute was trough eBay.

At the beginning I wrote directly to the seller, but then I've sent several messages to the support, and to the seller, trough the dispute system. Maybe it was too late.
Neither eBay nor the seller replied to my messaged - before and after the case was closed. The phone support wasn't helpful too.

The right thing to do was to issue return as soon as the case is open, because when the case is closed (and the buyers win 99% of the cases) everything is lost. Unfortunately being eBay noob, I didn't knew.

Yes, sorry. I've updated my location :)

[tllw]

I recently bought a rado watch that was listed as bnib with tags and genuine. When it came it looked pukka but when I did some homework it turned out to be a fake. The seller told me he was leaving the country then stopped responding. Lodged a case with ebay and after about two weeks sent me a postage label to return it. That postage label Id had to be logged in the postal system so ebay could see it was returned then waited a week or more before they issued a refund. I could see on the tracking that it was never delivered to the seller cos he had gone. So I don't see how ebay would take money from you without the goods being returned or at least within their return system

Indeed, hard to believe. But in my case, the refund was issued immediately and the buyer wasn't asked to return the item. They're many similar cases described at the eBay forums. Probably eBay are fine with it, as soon as they've collected their fees.

[Calum100]

My Mrs used to trade on ebay a lot, still does but at a lesser rate due to creating her own website. eBay is a minefield and it just full of scammers, and it's becoming harder and harder for genuine sellers to operate. EBay don't seem to understand that without the sellers there is no eBay, but they continue to reduce the protection for sellers. There will come a breaking point I'm sure where sellers will move to eBay competitors, sell via Facebook or set up their own websites.

[KavKav]

Shocking that you have been ripped off like this and ebay's indifference is equally shocking!

In the early days (Pre-TZ-UK) I bought and sold thousands of pounds worth of watches from decent ebayers without any problem, I have not sold anything on there for 7-8 years now and frankly I would not touch eBay with a barge pole nowadays.
Hope you get some sort of resolution.

[bambam]

That is outrageous! I used to sell stuff on eBay a while ago but don't think I'll bother again. Too much risk of being scammed it seems.
Hope you get some kind of resolution - its worth it to keep trying and making your case that you've basically lost out completely.

[sevvy]

Indeed, hard to believe. But in my case, the refund was issued immediately and the buyer wasn't asked to return the item. They're many similar cases described at the eBay forums. Probably eBay are fine with it, as soon as they've collected their fees.

Without knowing all the ins and outs this just doesn't sound right to me. There's a process to go through for both buyer and seller. There's no doubt that eBay is weighted in favour of the buyer these days but if the buyer opened a resolution then there's steps involved for both parties. Paypal can and do debit your account straight away if a resolution is started but if it's found in your favour it will be put back.

One thing I find very surprising is the buyer not needing to return the item, that really doesn't sound right.

[RayTango]

EBay certainly has gone too far against private sellers and needs to redress the balance. I haven't sold anything there in ages now and used to sell quite a bit

[Diesel76]

Not good I am afraid. Out of sheer principle I'd be getting in the car with my right hook at the ready- sorry it's not the answer but I'd be ontheir toes within a day to sort out man to man. It's a disgrace and it's the only way to deal with he cowards.

[adrianw]

It does seen that eBay is going downhill fast, twice recently I have had buyers not pay, there is nothing I can do, eBay just refund the selling fees.

The problem is Ebay are not trading in the UK so ignore our laws, I think this needs to be stopped, no UK company no business. This would soon concentrate their minds.

[kssantosh]

I always used to be very sceptical whenever I buy anything from ebay..I always used to think buying was more risky business but its surprising how much of a risk it is to sell too.

[Calum100]

What you need to do is call ebay and not message. My Mrs had them on speed dial, with the amount of scammers she encountered. You might be on hold for a while, but once you get through explain the situation. Hopefully you will get through to the Irish call centre who are usually quite helpful, compared to the Indian equivalent. They will go through all communications between buyer and seller. The problem with this scam is that if ebay believe the item isn't genuine I think the buyer is asked to dispose of the item. However, you said you had receipts so you can send ebay these and also ask them to have the item sent for authentication (at your expense unfortunately). Hope this helps and good luck.

[mmgg1988]

Sorry to hear about your experience OP. I am no great fan of EBay either, particularly as a seller, mainly for the reasons listed above and that you have to pay 13.4% +20p of the final item price and postage in fees to EBay/PayPal!! Having said this, I have recently sold quite a few items through EBay and with the exception of a non paying bidder (where I had the fees refunded and sold the item in another auction for more than the first bidder won it for) I have not had any problems so far. I am not able to sell on here at present (and have no intention of speed posting my way to be able to do that!) and most of these items were not watch related and probably would not have appealed to most people on here. I have listed several items on Gumtree (no fees and no probs with buyer protection either) and despite living in London and easy to get to and charging less than they would go for on EBay, nothing has sold and plenty of time wasting messages and questions are sent whereas on Ebay, most things have sold for more than I thought they were worth! The problem is that EBay has a effective monopoly on a range of non-commercial online sales meaning that although there are are alternatives, in my experience at least, they tend to produce relatively little volume of traffic. I would be interested to here where people sell items if not on here (particularly non watch related ones)

Looking at the buyer protection policy in the UK at least, it says that the item must be returned to the seller before the buyer is refunded unless the item is hazerdous or non-material or if "there are strong indicators that the item is counterfeit" so perhaps that last one was used in this sellers case although there is strong argument that you had far more evidence the item was real than the buyer did that it was fake. If the item is not as described "A buyer must request a return no later than 30 days after the actual (or latest estimated) delivery date" excluding holidays.

PayPal gives you 180 days to bring a claim (as mentioned above) and again, you have to submit evidence but as EBay, unless "PayPal has reason to believe that the item you sold is counterfeit" you should get the item back.

The trouble with the above is that when using either EBay or PayPal, you basically allow them to be judge, jury and executioner, even for their appeals process. You can complain to the FOS with regard to PayPay as they are a financial services provider but no such luck with EBay I believe.

[IAmATeaf]

I personally wouldn't give up. Isn't there a forum where you can vent your anger?

[GMC41]

Out of curiosity, if the funds have already been withdrawn from PayPal by the seller is there a way to prevent eBay/PayPal clawing it back?

[mmgg1988]

Most PayPal accounts are either linked to a debit/credit card or bank account so I guess they simply take it from there!!

[GMC41]

Most PayPal accounts are either linked to a debit/credit card or bank account so I guess they simply take it from there!!

No I know that but was wondering if it was possible to ask the bank to prevent them retrieving the funds (I should've been clearer, sorry)?

I recall my wife buying an item quite a few years back and the seller never posted it citing the reason that they'd moved abroad the day before the auction ended??? We never received a refund from the seller and opened a dispute. Ebay only refunded about 70% of the purchase price because the funds weren't available. It was a long time ago so can't recall the full details though.

[Bodo]

The payment is taken from eBay as an invoiced amount, like seller fees etc. So you have to pay it. If you chargeback that payment you will lose.

With PayPal the refund is taken leaving a negative balance or from whatever positive balance you originally had, leaving you either in negative or with whatever is left after the refund. Two different systems. PayPal will eventually chase the debt if in a negative.

PayPal used to request you prove the item was counterfeit and then it could be returned or destroyed depending on what avenue could be taken. Mostly this was due to the legal position of propagating sales of counterfeit items. Now, it's a simple return that's needed. If the seller ends up with a different item, you must report it and it will be taken seriously and a fraud report will need to be submitted.

From what the OP had described it's either the policy for the buyer's country to not allow a return or you were too late to respond to the case. If it's the latter then it's your fault. If the former then it's a lesson to be learnt in selling to that country.

I can't help but think that the seller isn't being entirely open with what exactly happened and whether the refund was issued before the item was returned or with communication happening outside the case that he didn't respond to the case in the given time frame?

I'm just shocked or doubtful with the outcome either way that's why I'm asking this genuinely.

As far as I know there should be no reason why eBay wouldn't have allowed the buyer to return it before being refunded. Something doesn't add up here. Call eBay, it's the only way and it's nothing to do with PayPal if it was an eBay case, so don't waste time calling them.

[slowprop]

Although I have sold there in the past I have mainly used E Bay to buy things. Seems buyers enjoy better protection than sellers ? I think you are allowed to state that you will only sell to people with X amount of feedback ? Anyone who bids with little or no feedback then I think you are entitled to cancel their bid.

[noTAGlove]

Never sold anything on eBay. Never bought anything on eBay.

This thread doesn't encourage me to start any time soon.

[mmgg1988]

Although I have sold there in the past I have mainly used E Bay to buy things. Seems buyers enjoy better protection than sellers ? I think you are allowed to state that you will only sell to people with X amount of feedback ? Anyone who bids with little or no feedback then I think you are entitled to cancel their bid.

Yes, you can only sell to people with certain levels of feedback, I don't think you can cancel bids from low feedback sellers unless you have specified this beforehand, I guess if you say you don't want low feedback bidders then their bids are not accepted but not sure of this. TBH I have had several fault free transactions from sellers with <10 feedback ratings and the one that messed me around had over 200 feedback and 100% was positive!

[kk]

I stopped using ebay a couple of years ago after I sold some hifi and had major grief with two different foreign buyers in a short space of time claiming faults, looking for a partial refunds. In the second case rather than just capitulate I asked for the item back and it arrived trashed. Several hundred quid down the pan.

I still buy occasionally from ebay but only for commodity stuff from long established shops. I'd only sell stuff there now that had no value to me (junk essentially).

[kk]

Yes, you can only sell to people with certain levels of feedback, I don't think you can cancel bids from low feedback sellers unless you have specified this beforehand, I guess if you say you don't want low feedback bidders then their bids are not accepted but not sure of this. TBH I have had several fault free transactions from sellers with <10 feedback ratings and the one that messed me around had over 200 feedback and 100% was positive!

You can't give negative feedback on a sale any more. Only on a purchase. So 100% is no guarantee at all it isn't a scammer.

The whole system is pants.

At last rival auction sites are starting to appear - Panjo (much as I hate it) one some enthusiasts' sites (not really sure that will catch on), ETSY for arty-farty bits and bobs, no doubt others will emerge, not necessarily as direct all encompassing rivals to FeePay (now running at 10% for most casual sellers) but chipping away at the edges.

FeePay is the Tesco of the online world and I hope it crashes and burns the same as the bricks and mortar Tesco is in the process of doing.

[itsgotournameonit]

Never has and never will.I have not sold on ebay for many years now but at least the OP should have had the item returned before the payment was reversed.

[tllw]

As far as I know there should be no reason why eBay wouldn't have allowed the buyer to return it before being refunded. Something doesn't add up here. Call eBay, it's the only way and it's nothing to do with PayPal if it was an eBay case, so don't waste time calling them.

Mate, I never said I'm an Ebay guru or a professional seller. On contrary - I had to cancel the sale and issue return as soon as the case is opened. I didn't know some buyers are doing this expecting partial returns.

The case was opened weeks after the sale, and yes, I was able to do better. But at the end of the day, I lost both the money and the item.
It's my fault that I've sold items on Ebay, without doing my homework - researching properly the platform and its rules.
Ebay will always back the buyer. And in case of "not genuine" (or item not as described) report - they may allow the buyer to not return the item as soon as he "destroys" it.

Then again - I will never let a friend to sell something valuable (especially watch) there. Too much hassle and risk, not enough protection.

[Bodo]

I see. Well tllw I feel for you, it can be a nightmare and I acknowledge to an extent that really it seems it takes a baptism of fire somewhat to actually become aware of the process, which is unfortunately more often the case than not.

I would say that once you become aware of the system and understand what is required in terms of responding appropriately and making sure that you describe items accurately that there is a lessening of the likelihood of situations you have found yourself in.

And I wasn't having any go at you, but trying to understand the situation exactly.

If you do sell again and you're faced with a case I found it's often best to call if possible, try and request a call back as more often than not they can do this in my experience, as it's the more fail safe way of dealing with the situation at hand. Messages I guess can slip under the radar and will need the case number and details made explicit so as to know what it's related to, but even then I'd rather speak to a human as I imagine thousands of emails are sent that can get overseen but it's far harder to ignore the phone call.

Picking up the phone to have the call documented and anything clearing up with regards to advice on how to proceed may cost a few quid but could be the difference between losing a lot more money and not.

Lastly, I can't blame you for anything that happened. Seems like you genuinely were doing your best. The buyer sounds like they worked the system to a degree but if you didn't respond to the case, or allowed the cancelling of the sale without making sure he returned it, then this situation was inevitable.

If the decision was made to allow the buyer to destroy the item and you have evidence to appeal the case, and you responded in the time frame appropriately seeking a return of the goods for a refund then I hope your appeal would be taken seriously at the very least. eBay, as far as I know, would have to have had evidence from the buyer's side to prove the authenticity of the goods and even then should have really overseen a return rather than destruction of the items.. If you didn't respond or the refund was issued voluntarily before making sure he had to return the item, then yeh that's a dead end I'm afraid.

[PhilipK]

It's my fault that I've sold items on Ebay, without doing my homework - researching properly the platform and its rules.

Unfortunately there are many, many people in the same position - and then they blame eBay when they have a problem.

One things that you have to realise is that eBay/PayPal is incredibly process driven - you have to follow their processes and timescales to the letter, especially in the case of a dispute.

They try to automate as much as possible (essential, I guess, when you have over 112,000,000 live listings at any given moment and turn over around US$181,000,000 [*] every day!), but their telephone staff are reputed to be not very well trained and quite often ignorant of eBay's own rules. The Irish call centre is reputed to the the best (and some people on the various eBay forums, will keep ringing until they get somebody there rather than any other call centre).

[*] Best figures that I could get from a quick internet search. If anybody has better/newer/more reliable stats about eBay's business volumes I'd love to see them.

[kas9t82]

PayPal used to request you prove the item was counterfeit and then it could be returned or destroyed depending on what avenue could be taken. Mostly this was due to the legal position of propagating sales of counterfeit items. Now, it's a simple return that's needed. If the seller ends up with a different item, you must report it and it will be taken seriously and a fraud report will need to be submitted.

It still is! Not sure why there is all this confusion. You ( the buyer ) are not required to return conterfeit goods, the seller ( of said item ) or ebay will send either a courier or a tnt post package if they want the otem back. So it's an easy scam for a crook as they know this, the seller on this occasion was marked as a newb & got stung.
Obviously ebay's policy is designed for the buyer to give them time to get the item verified, this is where the system breaks down, as ebay only require the buyers word that he has had it checked, it is possible that the buyer had some sort of phoney document stating it's fake, idk.
For the record, as a near 15yr ebayer I have had more problems with dodgy sellers than buyers, ebay is still miles ahead of any competition out there, cant see that changing for the next 10yrs, despite unsavory episodes such as described in this thread.

[Bodo]

Hmm kas indeed you're right. Just checked up on it. I'm fairly sure if a case is on PayPal it doesn't follows the same process. I'll have to look into it to be sure. Lack of consistency there and yeh doesn't fill me as a seller with confidence. Luckily I haven't been in the same situation as the OP.

Apologies for thinking this was the case.

[markrlondon]

At last rival auction sites are starting to appear

eBid.net has been operating successfully in several regions across the world for many, many years. I have bought and sold goods there.

We only have ourselves to blame for not patronising eBid enough and for giving eBay its massive market size.

[Firesam]

Gumtree or Preloved is the way forward for me.

After being scammed the same way, I turned my back on eBay, so now I use either of the above, Preloved costs you 5 quid a year.
Granted that you do cut down on you potential area to buy from as more tends to be done face to face, unless you really like travelling!
All in all, perfect , if not the most convenient way, to buy and sell.

[the_soon_to_be]

Gumtree or Preloved is the way forward for me.

After being scammed the same way, I turned my back on eBay, so now I use either of the above, Preloved costs you 5 quid a year.
Granted that you do cut down on you potential area to buy from as more tends to be done face to face, unless you really like travelling!
All in all, perfect , if not the most convenient way, to buy and sell.

I keep trying gumtree but all I seem to get is people wanting to waste my time or get something for nothing. Granted I've had a few sales that have all been fantastic but vastly outweighed by people agreeing a time to come collect and then offering all the rubbish excuses under the sun.
A very hit or miss way of selling

[kas9t82]

I'm fairly sure if a case is on PayPal it doesn't follows the same process

Well i'm 100% sure it does

Gumtree or Preloved is the way forward for me.

More scammers use gumtree then ebay. Gumtree is full of garbage, with 0 protection for anyone, you get scammed... tough s**t! That's gumtree.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...consumers.html

eBid.net has been operating successfully in several regions across the world for many, many years. I have bought and sold goods there.

Have to say i'm baffled as to how they keep running, very little traffic on that site, 90% is garbage from china, it's like poundland online. Ebid is so far behind ebay it's not even funny. Ebay is a bizzare website, the worse it gets, the more people use it.

[markrlondon]

Have to say i'm baffled as to how they [eBid] keep running, very little traffic on that site, 90% is garbage from china, it's like poundland online.

A very low cost base, I suspect.

If they can just keep at it then I reckon their success will grow... eventually.