^^^^^ ThisOriginally Posted by patnmand
Among my many "fancy" watches, I have an Orient Mako. I just don't know how they do what they do for sixty quid! For the money, it kills this plastic POS stone dead, Swiss or not.
The shame is that every man in the street knows Swatch, but nobody has heard of Orient.
Orient movement - very cheap labour
Swatch movement - very expensive labour
The cost of a chap arriving at work and switching on a machine is more than the entire labour cost involved in making the Orient movement I would imagine.
I know which I'd rather have (the Orient) but I see the Swiss plastic thingy has its place.
Do you understand the concepts of variable labour rates, cost of capital, overheads and shareholder returns? If so there's your answer. For example, there are reasons the Orient is cheap, and "nobody's heard of them" is one good one!
so the hundred quid(ish) watch is cheaply made?
Shocker!!!!11!!!!1
Even if the Swatch says it is made in Switzerland, the rules allow 50% of the content to be made elsewhere, so it is certain to have plenty of Chinese parts.
Thank you for the lecturing on these truisms.
You imply the people on here write what they write due to a lack of these very basic understandings you provided. They do understand, they probably just do do not care about supporting the Swiss standard of living, they rate the product. You make it sound like they would change their opinion on the movement after realising that the Swiss can hardly deliver higher quality at that price point while maintaining their standard of living. That is absurd.
As far as I am concerned, I do not care either, about the swiss employee's mercedes or SwatchCo's profit margin. You imply we should care about about any of this. That is a weird and worldly innocent view on things.
Last edited by JMH; 20th September 2014 at 12:27.
So in Asia they can produce a better quality product at a better price. Whatever the reason as a consumer you'd be better off buying Asian at this price point, end of!
That sumns it up greatly. Very well said, RobDad.
This is a completely new movement, which is made by a completely automated production process.
The high cost at the moment will partly reflect the need to recoup research and development costs. The machines that build this extremely cheap movement had to be designed and built themselves. Almost every element of a mechanical movement had to be rethought in order to reduce costs, and engineer something which could be made in this way.
The none-Swiss manufacturers this movement is being compared to in terms of value for money for automatic movements are all using technology, and in some cases copying entire movements, that have been around for 50 years or more.
Assuming you want to ignore issues like accessibility, after sales service and customer support, import duties, lead time to delivery, etc etc. So hardly "end of", eh?
(NB I think the Swatch is shite, and I'd take a Bambino over it any day of the week.)
As a customer, I don't really care about a company recouping its investment - I only care about how much watch I can get for my money. If Swatch think they can sell this for 100 quid or whatever, they are probably right, but I'll personally take the superior product offered at a similar price.
That's not really the point I'm making.
I'm saying that as with anything new, and this is an entirely new type of movement, the costs will come down with time.
That's just how it works, and if it didn't work that way, nothing new would ever be developed.
Keep in mind, I'm not making any kind of value judgement here either. Whether or not you think this is progress in the right direction or not is up to you.
Personally, I think developing a (potentially, down the line) very cheap, none serviceable, disposable mechanical movement that can be produced by a completely automated process without the need for skilled labour, using the minimum number of parts is probably not a good thing anyway. Certainly not something that appeals to me.
I'm just saying, it is still a revolutionary step, still progress, and the first people to buy commodities where such steps have been taken will always pay more.
This should go some way to explaining why we are being asked to pay a not particularly cheap price, for what seems like it should be a very cheap product.
Although it's likely that the "strong brand" as somebody else put it is just as much of a factor here.
At £100 I'm not all that bothered about customer support or after sales to be honest - although I'm sure most problems could be rectified. I think the gulf in quality means is worth the risk - I have an £88 citizen diver stuck on customs, week have to pay £18 customs by the looks of it - it's a 200m ISO full line day date diver that citizen UK can fix of anything goes wrong (Even if there's no warranty in the UK I doubt it would cost much)
That last post makes sound like Yoda!
No. What I find puzzling is the amazement that the Swiss watch product is more expensive to buy yet has less obvious tactile quality. Of course more of the cost of the Orient watch made in the Philippines is going to go into the parts vs the labour. Go and eat a meal in Manila then one in Zurich - the price difference will orders of magnitude yet the raw ingredients just the same, or better, in Manila.
No I don't care whethere you do or don't. It's the lack of appreciation of basic economic realities, on a luxury product forum largely dominated by things made in the most expensive country in the world, that I wonder about. I mean what do you expect?As far as I am concerned, I do not care either, about the swiss employee's mercedes or SwatchCo's profit margin. You imply we should care about about any of this. That is a weird and worldly innocent view on things.
Last edited by andrew; 20th September 2014 at 16:59.
Comparing this with Citizen and Seiko divers is somewhat ridiculous. Different products catering to different segments. There is a lot to be said about Seiko and Citizen affordable divers and what good VFM they are. But, has been already said. Over and over again. And then, some more. A Swiss made auto with new technology at this price point is surely something of an accomplishment,IMO.
Oh, very likely yes, in terms of the material quality you get (such as it is - the Orient is still a very cheap watch). It's the naive indignation at the cost of the Swiss watch - and why it should be higher for a lower quality of material, as if that was the sole driver of product cost - that i don't get.
You're response is entirely subjective and may well be different to the next persons... hence "end of" being an inappropriate conclusion to have reached in your earlier post. In fact, the absence of a meaningful and actionable warranty may well be enough for many people to disagree with your own view. (I happen to agree with you, btw.)
But if you've already got the citizen or Seiko, or whatever - and like a fun fashion watch - why not. The quality is the same as any other Swatch.
It's just a matter of time...
I've always been in the Swiss 'Rolex/Omega/Panerai' camp for my daily watch, with a few G shocks and the odd Seiko as 'going to the gym/an excuse to buy a new watch but it won't cost much' alongside. When Swiss were a couple of grand and my cheap watches were £100-200 I was quite happy - and always defaulted to 'well they are Swiss made and inherently better' - but now Swiss watches are very very expensive, and I've had mixed experience with servicing, timekeeping, Qc and after sales from the big Swiss brands too. None of my G shocks has ever gone wrong, nor a Seiko - and my latest purchase, a U1, is also very good. So the whole Swiss thing has lost it's gloss a bit for me, I think maybe they've got a bit too confident in their own marketing and rested on their laurels, I'm a big fan of all kinds of watches but I genuinely think if you're looking to spend under £500 on a watch - with the exception of some of the excellent micro-brands such as produced by Eddie you'd get much more bang for your buck buying something that isn't Swiss. Mind you I prefer dairy milk to Lindt so perhaps I'm biased!
I wont say you are making things up here, but to me this is a bit of an exaggeration of the situation. First off, you can buy nice Seikos retail (at least here in Germany), bit more pricey, of course, but still in the same range as the swatch'es. All your points would be invalid in that case.
Even if you import, well, you basically have to wait a bit longer for your watch, basically. And if there is a warranty case, its a bit more hassleful. All the other stuff is not a biggy, big after sales service on a swatch? Lets be realistic, no real demand, and no real offer.
How do you discern this lack of appreciation of basic economic realities? Pointing out that the new movement is a step backwards from a (WIS) consumer point of view clearly does not show any lack of knowledge, pointing out how much of a better choice Seiko and Orient are doesnt either. Why? Until now, Swiss offerings were more expensive but better (entry lvl eta 2824-2 better than 7s26). But now, probably for the first time, you wont find a mechanical movement by Orient or Seiko that is worse than the Swiss system51. And that is quite a novelty. The problem is not the heigher price in the same segment. The problem is: The Swiss making the inferior product.
Last edited by JMH; 20th September 2014 at 23:27.
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