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Thread: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

  1. #51
    Master
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    Is this the new Unofficial Doxa Forum?

  2. #52
    Master
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    I think Eddie should have used maybe Omega for the analogy.

  3. #53
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    Observation...

    I only have issues with watch brands that provide poor quality in the guise of a premium or quality watch. Companies anywhere can build a crap watch or a premium piece. I personally have never had an issue with Doxa.

    Rolex pricing is based on economics.

    Remember their are overhead fees, design costs, and other items that cause a brand not to sell at the price of the raw parts.

    Omega should have never gone after Eddie. They have a great repair facility and made some really nice vintage dive watches.

    IWC uses a lot of ETA movements and sells them with own movement number. It is still a good brand. There is a long brand list that falls into this observation.

    Zenith has a distinctive design in it's new watches that is unique to the brand.

    Show me a picture of your new watch and I will praise it. May he who is without sin cast the first stone.

    Simply stated: Treat a company as you would like to be treated.

    DaveB

  4. #54
    Seaserpent
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    I always find fascinating how so much of the discussion on watch forums revolves, in one way or another, around the ?Swiss Made? term. Sometimes it is almost like a theological dispute going on behind the walls of Bizantium while the world around was rapidly changing.

    On 1992, James Carville coined an infamous motto for Bill Clinton's first presidential campaign to focus on: ?It's the economy, stupid?. Economic history is most of the time about making things at lesser costs. That is the case of the watch industry. Without the Asian part of the equation, must of the world's watch industry (including Switzerland's) would be economically inviable.

    Now, do some people think less of themselves because their watches are, after all, not as fully ?Swiss Made? as they thought? Does China or any other Asian country make some people nervous? Why? Are Asian workers not capable of making high-quality products? Sometimes, and I want to underline sometimes, it seems this is the overt or covert concern of some of the people debating the ?Swiss Made? affair. And when that's the case, it's just sorrowful.

    It seems funny also, because the discussion on watch forums is possible thanks to the Internet and is actually going on in the increasing number of personal computers available all over the world. And both are amongst the things that wouldn't be economically viable without Asian workers and Asian production.

  5. #55
    Master Bernard's Avatar
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    My last post regarding DOXA:


  6. #56
    I would never buy a 'swiss' watch. Simple as that.

  7. #57
    Grand Master Seamaster73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seaserpent
    Do some people think less of themselves because their watches are, after all, not as fully ?Swiss Made? as they thought? Does China or any other Asian country make some people nervous? Why? Are Asian workers not capable of making high-quality products? Sometimes, and I want to underline sometimes, it seems this is the overt or covert concern of some of the people debating the ?Swiss Made? affair. And when that's the case, it's just sorrowful.
    No.

    They just think less of manufacturers who are less than honest.

    Do you see?

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamaster73

    No.

    They just think less of manufacturers who are less than honest.

    Do you see?
    Hmmmm, lets see now. Anyone ever taken any medications? Do you really trust big Pharma... ever heard of Vioxx, Paxil etc etc. Try Bayer and the Inveresk trials or maybe Bristol-Mayers and 150 million Dollar fine for fraud. Own an Omega? Buy BP petrol? Smoke? Believe the inflation rate figures? Weapons of mass destruction? Eat meat or eggs? Really think prophylactic antibiotics or Bovine growth hormone is really doing you or your children a lot of good? I could go on but I think you get the picture.

    Hands up anyone who has never told a lie (even a wee white one), cheated, stolen, claimed to be something they aren't whether in business or personal life. Yes massaging your tax returns does count :-) "Of course I love you darling and I'll call you tomorrow.........."

    How many people here think that because some of the biggest or smallest companies around have never been called out as being economical with the truth that they are paragons of virtue?

    I hate to admit it but life is about dishonesty. It isn't whether people are dishonest, it is about levels of dishonesty, from your son saying "yes I did my homework" to the likes of Enron.

    I guess there aren't really too many of us with pearly white souls. Those amongst us without sin etc etc etc.

    And as for Chinese or Asian manufacturers. How many of those naysayers have mobile phones, VCRs, DVD players, TVs, printers, monitors, Hyundai cars (to name one) etc etc etc. You think of it and it probably has some component made or sourced in Asia... who are the biggest steel manufactures in the world, biggest ship builders, biggest microchip producers? How many people here slagging them off have actually been to or lived in Asia and dealt with Asian manufacturers (OK I'm a bit unique as I lived in Korea and China for 5 years so I may know a wee bit more than most). It's really easy to slag people off from behind a computer screen. I guess if we stopped buying or using stuff manufactured in Asia we'ed all be pretty naked and technologically challenged. Ever stop to think why the USA is billions of dollars in debt and China has a trade surplus of one trillion dollars and is buying up everything in sight?

    Things are never quite as simple or black and white as they seem.

    Pete

  9. #59
    Master JCJM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Doctor
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamaster73

    No.

    They just think less of manufacturers who are less than honest.

    Do you see?
    Hmmmm, lets see now. Anyone ever taken any medications? Do you really trust big Pharma... ever heard of Vioxx, Paxil etc etc. Try Bayer and the Inveresk trials or maybe Bristol-Mayers and 150 million Dollar fine for fraud. Own an Omega? Buy BP petrol? Smoke? Believe the inflation rate figures? Weapons of mass destruction? Eat meat or eggs? Really think prophylactic antibiotics or Bovine growth hormone is really doing you or your children a lot of good? I could go on but I think you get the picture.

    Hands up anyone who has never told a lie (even a wee white one), cheated, stolen, claimed to be something they aren't whether in business or personal life. Yes massaging your tax returns does count :-) "Of course I love you darling and I'll call you tomorrow.........."

    How many people here think that because some of the biggest or smallest companies around have never been called out as being economical with the truth that they are paragons of virtue?

    I hate to admit it but life is about dishonesty. It isn't whether people are dishonest, it is about levels of dishonesty, from your son saying "yes I did my homework" to the likes of Enron.

    I guess there aren't really too many of us with pearly white souls. Those amongst us without sin etc etc etc.

    And as for Chinese or Asian manufacturers. How many of those naysayers have mobile phones, VCRs, DVD players, TVs, printers, monitors, Hyundai cars (to name one) etc etc etc. You think of it and it probably has some component made or sourced in Asia... who are the biggest steel manufactures in the world, biggest ship builders, biggest microchip producers? How many people here slagging them off have actually been to or lived in Asia and dealt with Asian manufacturers (OK I'm a bit unique as I lived in Korea and China for 5 years so I may know a wee bit more than most). It's really easy to slag people off from behind a computer screen. I guess if we stopped buying or using stuff manufactured in Asia we'ed all be pretty naked and technologically challenged. Ever stop to think why the USA is billions of dollars in debt and China has a trade surplus of one trillion dollars and is buying up everything in sight?

    Things are never quite as simple or black and white as they seem.


    Pete
    True. Things never are black and white. But it is black and white to me if I ask a company something and they choose to provide me with false information. For me that is lying. In the end of the day it really is that simple. Have I ever lied? - sure. Will I again? - most likely. Will I buy products from a company that I know lie to my face? - no. But thats just me.

    I off this thread now.

  10. #60
    Grand Master Seamaster73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Doctor
    And as for Chinese or Asian manufacturers. How many of those naysayers have mobile phones, VCRs, DVD players, TVs, printers, monitors, Hyundai cars (to name one) etc etc etc. You think of it and it probably has some component made or sourced in Asia...
    How many of those claim to be they're something they're not?

    If I email Hyundai and ask where their factory is located, I've no reason to believe they'd fib about it.

    Do you see?

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamaster73
    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Doctor
    And as for Chinese or Asian manufacturers. How many of those naysayers have mobile phones, VCRs, DVD players, TVs, printers, monitors, Hyundai cars (to name one) etc etc etc. You think of it and it probably has some component made or sourced in Asia...
    How many of those claim to be they're something they're not?

    If I email Hyundai and ask where their factory is located, I've no reason to believe they'd fib about it.

    Do you see?
    I see very well actually. Thanks for asking.

    One of Hyundai's biggest manufacturing plants is Dalian. North China. I used to live there.

    So how many manufactures have you actually asked where their manufacturing facilities are and believe exactly what they tell you?

  12. #62
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    I may be wrong but I thought I'd asked for all this bitching and sniping to stop?

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  13. #63
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    <center>
    </center></a>


    J.

  14. #64
    Grand Master Dave E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Wayne
    <center>
    </center></a>


    J.
    :lol: :lol:
    Dave E

    Skating away on the thin ice of a new day

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    I may be wrong but I thought I'd asked for all this bitching and sniping to stop?

    Eddie
    Problem is, simply mentioning "Doxa" is a road to ruin these days. Plenty of folks still have their panties in a bunch over it. And given that the majority of members here are males, that is saying quite a lot about more things than one. Needless to say, with their brains under immense pressure rational thought is nigh impossible.

    --> Can you tell I'm tired of this crud? :P

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean in Canuckistan
    --> Can you tell I'm tired of this crud? :P
    No Dean, I can't. :(


    I was trying to leave the thread on a humorous finale but I now fear that your
    post just begs comment from all those that may still have their "panties in a bunch".

    I'm honestly surprised that you decided to add another post like this to Eddie's thread.


    J.

  17. #67
    [quote=J.Wayne]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Dean in Canuckistan":12h4byxd
    --> Can you tell I'm tired of this crud? :P
    No Dean, I can't. :(


    I was trying to leave the thread on a humorous finale but I now fear that your
    post just begs comment from all those that may still have their "panties in a bunch".

    I'm honestly surprised that you decided to add another post like this to Eddie's thread.


    J.[/quote:12h4byxd]

    I thought you and I were squared up, as was much of this discussion. I rather liked your humorous ending. I was just trying to point out that there are still some folks out there who are overly fussed about the whole thing. It had died, but somehow it got resurrected.

    Perhaps I was too hasty with my post, and should have left it unsaid.

    I suppose, what I'm trying to say is that there are two camps and neither is willing to just shut up.

    And I think I've realized, following your post, that I'm in one of these camps.

    Crud.

    Mea culpa.

  18. #68
    Master JCJM's Avatar
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    :twisted:

  19. #69
    Craftsman
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean in Canuckistan
    I thought you and I were squared up, as was much of this discussion.

    Hey Dean, we are 100% squared up and no hard feelings whatsoever. ;)

    I'm over the "D" watch debacle, but as you pointed out others may
    not be and the way I read your reply seemed an open invitation.
    I'm glad you responded and cleared things up before "we" got started all over again.


    J.

  20. #70
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    to answer one of Eddie's questions...

    I think that I would feel different about a watch I owned if I were to find out the origins were different than stated.

    However, as we've discussed, quality is pretty-much location independant, however, the implication has been that Swiss=quality, and China=cutting corners/poorly made.

    If I knew that the manufacturing standards were the same, or monitored by the parent company, I would feel differently about it.

    I think that people primarily mind when they discover that their "swiss made" watch is not actually 100% swiss. Knowing the swiss made rules a bit better now, I am more prepared to accept this, and judge accordingly.

    For example, if Eddie told me prior to purchasing the Italian that the case was to be made in China, as long as he approved the quality, it wouldn't change how I felt about the watch.

    I think that when information like that is found out after the fact that people complain. It all depends on how the company handles it: "Yes, we outsourced the cases to China, but that was because we obtained higher quality there, and kept the costs the same" means a lot more to me than silence would

    Chris

  21. #71
    Master John Vargas's Avatar
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    Re: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    It used to matter...

    Everything is so convoluted at this point…

    Now, I have actually seen made in China from all Swiss Components????

    My Escalade was made from Parts Made in Canada, Assembled in Mexico, and inspected in America, it is still called an American Car…although on the door is says parts from Canada, assembled in Mexico, ROUDLY INSPECTED IN TEXAS.

    The only real American (all assembled in America) made car now is TOYOTA.

    Ferrari has parts made in China, and that is killing me.

    Rover and MG are owned by Chinese Company…Nanjing Automobile (Group) Corporation. Which own a large part of FIAT, which makes parts for Ferrari.

    You have AUDI, and Volkswagen in China that make parts for the Bentley.

    Honda China…

    King Long, who makes most of the parts for America, German, Italian Cars, not to mention they make the King Long Coach, in the Fukien province… BTW, the King Long Corporation makes most of the Buses on the public transport system in the UK, and America now.

    Where does it end, or where does it begin?

  22. #72

    Re: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    Has anybody read "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman? He has some great points regarding all that is discussed in this thread.

  23. #73
    Master
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    Re: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_is_Flat

    Hope you don't mind........... :wink:

  24. #74
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    Re:

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamaster73
    Apple openly brand many of their products "Designed by Apple in California. Made in China". Hasn't done them any harm.

    I Agree and that is because they are being straight so you then have a CHOICE about if you purchase it @the stated price.
    being a big Apple fanboy and an employee for a short time they do not really mind people knowing they are produced in various production facilities due to their very fierce quality control they exert on everything they license.
    so i know if its from cupertino or Guangzhou they are of the higest quality so i do not mind spending the money.

    BUT you must be given the opportunity to make a informed choice.

    That is my 2 cents from a newbie here

    Regards

    Rich :)

  25. #75

    Re: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    Actually Apple items are not exclusively designed in california but the management of such operations are for sure.
    if you take a look at the hardware inside, they come from different manufacturers.
    Their streghth is MARKETING, I believe, where others have failed

  26. #76
    Master
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    Re: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    wtf

  27. #77

    Re: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    I totally agree with this, thank you very much, best to deal in facts

  28. #78

    Re: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    Just as a point - there is of course rules regulating swiss made in general - and further regulating swiss made on watches.

    The main point is that there can be foreign materials in a Swiss made watch, BUT the movement has to be assembled, cased and inspected in Switzerland. Out of the components, 50% has to be Swiss - and here we talk 50% of the total value of the components, not including assembly or other costs/profit.

    The rules are e.g. described here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Made

    I think it is reasonable to expect that many Swiss watches may have UP to those 49% of the component value coming from outside, but in general you can see a difference from a Swiss made movement (take the many 7750 or new versions of older Venus pillar wheel chronos made in China) compared to the Chinese.

    I also expect that as it is max 49% of the components they can import, then there is not a fantastic saving, components are machine made by large - and the major cost in the watch lays in the assembly and finishing part - the man hours.

    If one day, the Chinese movements have the same finish as the Swiss, and that day will come, then watches will not be an exemption from the globalisation.

    vh

  29. #79
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    Re: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    Interesting how Eddie's intended topic took a wild turn - but I care to chime into the conversation of SWISS MADE - if I may of course.

    I particularly collect primarily RARE VINTAGE GRAIL Swiss watches - key point VINTAGE for their TRUE higher (if not near 100%) genuine origin in Switzerland.

    Prior to recent times where just about everything is made in CHINA or other parts of Asia for the cost of a bowl of rice, SWISS MADE meant just that, MADE IN SWITZERLAND - I honor that workmanship, and heritage. And that fact, does factor greatly into my pursuit of older SWISS timepieces vs. the newer breeds of hy-breeds.

    And I am making NO adverse references to Asia (bowl of rice mention was in pure jest ), or products from there - other than to say that if they originate from there I would like those facts to be presented as such, rather than hidden and be charged as if there weren't any in my high dollar/euro item.

    And to reiterate one of Eddie's original points of importance... unfounded allegations, suspicions etc that lay claim to defamitory or degradation of any individual/character or company CAN easily result in CIVIL LIABILITY... I (as always) applaud Eddie for being politically correct, as well as very well informed, and fair... now, only if "OTHER" forums held such a high standard, the watch comunity would be a MUCH better place.

    Thanks to you all for your time, and interest.

  30. #80
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    Re: Re:

    Quote Originally Posted by Richierm257
    BUT you must be given the opportunity to make a informed choice.
    Yesss, but, but, but.... where does that leave us with all the plastic surgery misleading us in our upfront choices? :albino:
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  31. #81

    Re:

    It would be very amusing wouldn't it! We had a good laugh at the thought.
    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob
    Stella Artois premium Belgian lager. Brewed under license in the UK. If the rumours are true, perhaps certain "Swiss Made" watches should come with the small print "Made under license in the PRC", where appropriate?

  32. #82

    Re: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    Are there any Swiss watches that are completely made and assembled there?

  33. #83
    Grand Master Glamdring's Avatar
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    Re: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    Nobody knows, and if they do, they're not saying. Hence the thread title.

  34. #84

    Re: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by degsey
    Are there any Swiss watches that are completely made and assembled there?
    When nobody say it,don't belive nobody do it
    the best watch today when it comes to polish and work on the watch is not a swiss made but a Lange made in Germany,
    and when I see what high quality Seiko can make to a price the swiss only can dream about,then I also think a not Swiss Made brand are ahead on the value area to

    It say Swiss Made on many good watches but the are not alone
    and there are some ahead of them also,what they do very good is to tell a story we like 8) .

    All this is just MHO :)

  35. #85

    Re: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    completely agree, good to have a sticky!

    Nick

  36. #86

    Re: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    I will try to look at the subject other way.
    A Swiss watchmaking company, say "Epsilon", to cut costs has decided to move manufacturing premises from Switzerland where labour is costly, somewhere else where it is less. They have made the design and technology with all the experience they gained and they are warranting the quality with their reputation and brand name, worth a nice couple of millions, so their QC is very strict. As a result, a customer receives more for less. So they are proud to write "Made outside Switzerland" on their watches...

    Why it is not so?

  37. #87
    Journeyman Drum2000's Avatar
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    Re:

    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob
    Stella Artois premium Belgian lager. Brewed under license in the UK. If the rumours are true, perhaps certain "Swiss Made" watches should come with the small print "Made under license in the PRC", where appropriate?
    Take can of Stella brewed in the UK. Now take a can of Stella brewed in Belgium. Pour a generous sample of each into a separate glass. Now sample.

    I think that you will find that the Belgian Stella is a far superior beer.

    As regards watch components I feel much the same way. If ETA were to be using Chinese manufactured parts in their movements then my confidence would be tested.

    "Swiss Made" should mean just that. Otherwise it is merely "Swiss Assembled".

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drum2000 View Post
    "Swiss Made" should mean just that. Otherwise it is merely "Swiss Assembled".
    Ronda make that distinction on their website.
    They offer movements made and assembled in Switserland and movements assembled in Switserland from parts made in Thailand.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  39. #89
    Master igorRIJEKA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drum2000 View Post
    If ETA were to be using Chinese manufactured parts in their movements then my confidence would be tested.

    "Swiss Made" should mean just that. Otherwise it is merely "Swiss Assembled".
    Few days ago I received new bezel for my Tissot Seastar 1000 (old model)....country of origin:CN (and I don't think that this CN stands for Canada )...

  40. #90
    Master bigbaddes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drum2000 View Post
    Take can of Stella brewed in the UK. Now take a can of Stella brewed in Belgium. Pour a generous sample of each into a separate glass. Now sample. I think that you will find that the Belgian Stella is a far superior beer.
    sadly also very true of tiger beer as tested by me last night

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by igorRIJEKA View Post
    Few days ago I received new bezel for my Tissot Seastar 1000 (old model)....country of origin:CN (and I don't think that this CN stands for Canada )...
    Wow, are they now producing parts in http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corea_del_Norte??!!
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  42. #92
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    This is a universal. Japanese "imports" in the States are brewed in Canada. Go figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbaddes View Post
    sadly also very true of tiger beer as tested by me last night

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drum2000 View Post
    Take can of Stella brewed in the UK. Now take a can of Stella brewed in Belgium. Pour a generous sample of each into a separate glass. Now sample.

    I think that you will find that the Belgian Stella is a far superior beer.

    As regards watch components I feel much the same way. If ETA were to be using Chinese manufactured parts in their movements then my confidence would be tested.

    "Swiss Made" should mean just that. Otherwise it is merely "Swiss Assembled".
    It'll Be the Water.....

    Guinness is different in Ireland, and different in different parts of Ireland.

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan... View Post
    It'll Be the Water.....

    Guinness is different in Ireland, and different in different parts of Ireland.
    I have heard this before, and have tried Guinness in Dublin, Ballybunion, Limerick and Foynes.
    Still tastes like mud to me, and I am of Irish heritage. I wish I could drink it, but it just doesn't agree with me.

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan... View Post
    It'll Be the Water.....

    Guinness is different in Ireland, and different in different parts of Ireland.
    There's also the fact Guinness is best fresh. So a "good Guinness pub" will go through its stock faster meaning you're getting a fresher pint. Brew it, transport it to Spain, maybe into a bar where it's not commonly drunk and you might be drinking a two week old pint


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbee View Post
    I have heard this before, and have tried Guinness in Dublin, Ballybunion, Limerick and Foynes.
    Still tastes like mud to me, and I am of Irish heritage. I wish I could drink it, but it just doesn't agree with me.
    Have you been following me around?

  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    Have you been following me around?
    Yes, but I lost you in Wicklow!

  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbee View Post
    Yes, but I lost you in Wicklow!
    Ah, I called in Cobh, before the run back up to Dalkey,

  49. #99
    Master bobbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    Ah, I called in Cobh, before the run back up to Dalkey,
    Oh, you will have missed the money tree then?
    I remember climbing it back in the eighties, as there was no room at the bottom. I was attacked by a swarm of angry bees who had made a nest in the higher fork.
    I didn't mess about just jumped and ran...
    I hear it has now fallen over due to all the coins hammered into it.

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mo...w=1280&bih=691

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