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Thread: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

  1. #1
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    I?ve been thinking about this for a few weeks so that I could present a more objective post on the subject.

    Occasionally we see a post which starts "I've heard that", or "Somebody told me", followed by a statement which is usually less than flattering towards a company, product or individual. I'm happy to let these posts stand if the case is presented with some verifiable facts; sadly, not all such posts contain facts.

    The ?Unofficial Doxa Forum? appeared following many complaints that posts on the Official Doxa Forum which the moderators considered unsuitable, i.e., anything critical of the company or the product or posing questions they didn?t want to answer, were being killed and posters banned. It?s patently wrong that companies won?t answer customer questions, so the UDF was born.

    Many people asked reasonable questions or related their own experiences but there were a few people who appeared to have an agenda and it is these people who concern me. We were promised dynamite revelations with proof but got damp squibs without proof, only innuendo and ?wait and see?.

    If there is proof, we should have been presented with it and if there is no proof, the allegations should not have been made. The absence of a satisfactory answer from a company does not automatically mean that they are guilty of the allegations being made against them.

    On several occasions it was alleged that Doxa watches are assembled in China, using Chinese manufactured components. No definitive proof was produced to support this, the only thing I could see was that they source straps and baseball caps from China, something which Doxa themselves readily admit. I don?t see any malpractice or deception here.

    It is not my intention to stifle debate which may be unwanted or embarrassing to manufacturers if the case presented is accurate and truthful but it is my intention to prevent this forum being used as a platform by anybody attempting to cause damage to any company or individual posting misleading or false information because of a personal grudge. Knowingly publishing false allegations leaves the individual poster and myself liable to civil action and potentially, the closure of TZ-UK Forum.

    The only ?facts? which came out of the 2263 posts in 125 threads on the UDF showed that the Official Doxa Forum is a marketing tool for Doxa and that at worst, they are guilty of poor customer communication. In short, we didn?t learn anything we didn?t already know.

    I?m using the Doxa incident as an example to illustrate a point, not to encourage any further discussion of specifics. Feel free to comment on my motives for making this post or to seek clarification but please do NOT try to resurrect the Doxa discussion or I?ll have to find the ?delete? button. :wink:

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  2. #2
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    All good points Eddie,
    but what I took as pertinent out of the whole Doxa brouhaha was the wee
    sticky bit about what it means to be "Swiss Made".

    You seem to give them a pass, or at least some latitude in this regard,
    but from what I've learned, the Swiss can play fast and loose with regards to what
    Swiss made really means by simply adjusting the percentages and pricing of
    the ingredients, and voila...."Swiss Made" from mostly Chinese components.

    e.g. Have a case completely machined in China, ship to Switzerland and
    spend 15 minutes detailing it, and because the Swiss labour is so high, it surpasses the
    entire cost of manufacture and now qualifies as a "Swiss Made" part. Is that honest?

    And this goes for ALL the Swiss parts/manufacturers, especially the highly regarded ETA movements.
    I suspect them of doing the same, and why not if it's allowed by the rules?

    Please, someone correct me if I've got this all wrong. My love and passion
    for Swiss watches has seriously been eroded due to all this nonsense.
    And for the record, I have nothing against Asian manufacture, but I get livid when lied to, or gouged in my wallet due to "perceived" value.

    As I mentioned in the midst of black Monday, it shouldn't take a team of lawyers to explain what "Swiss Made" really means.


    J.

  3. #3
    Grand Master Seamaster73's Avatar
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    I?m using the Doxa incident as an example to illustrate a point, not to encourage any further discussion of specifics. Feel free to comment on my motives for making this post or to seek clarification but please do NOT try to resurrect the Doxa discussion or I?ll have to find the ?delete? button.


    Eddie

  4. #4
    I?m using the Doxa incident as an example to illustrate a point, not to encourage any further discussion of specifics. Feel free to comment on my motives for making this post or to seek clarification but please do NOT try to resurrect the Doxa discussion or I?ll have to find the ?delete? button.


    Eddie

  5. #5
    Master Qatar-wol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Wayne
    You seem to give them a pass, or at least some latitude in this regard,
    but from what I've learned, the Swiss can play fast and loose with regards to what
    Swiss made really means by simply adjusting the percentages and pricing of
    the ingredients, and voila...."Swiss Made" from mostly Chinese components.
    I quite agree with your points about the difficulties with "Swiss Made", but I'm not entirely sure you're fair in your (mild!) criticism of Eddie. It's not really his role to act as a Sheffield based horological superhero, seeking out misuses of the term 'Swiss'! It's not his job to give out passes for companies, or to offer them a free ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    it is my intention to prevent this forum being used as a platform by anybody attempting to cause damage to any company or individual posting misleading or false information because of a personal grudge.
    That all sounds fair to me. I think Eddie would rather avoid any unnecessary run-ins with lawyers.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qatar-wol
    I quite agree with your points about the difficulties with "Swiss Made"
    I agree too. The whole subject of what means "Swiss Made" and the stupid Schweitzer 50% value rule has been beaten to death in this forum and many others and indeed a blog or two.

    The trouble is that, in the current wonderful global economy and the sad lack of that fine regulator - import tariffs, Companies that outsource stuff will make a bigger buck, at least in the short term.

    And us Customers have lost their balls, too. We all flock into Walmart (once a bastion of American-made goods - until the old man died) and gobble up all cheap foreign stuff as if nothing happened. BTW, I'm as guilty as the next man.

    Which is why I prefer vintage, nay, antique watches.

    BTW, don't take the back off of your USA military genuine-bedouine MIL-W-46374D Hamilton watch. You'll get a nasty shock of the HK variety.

  7. #7
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    The question of what qualifies as "Swiss Made" is a situation which potentially affects every manufacturer who puts "Swiss Made" on their watches so it's not really fair to single out one manufacturer.

    I heard from a most reliable source that some premium brands are sourcing components in China but without proof, you won't find me naming them publicly. :wink:

    Let me ask a question: If you paid £2000 for a top-name watch and it was your favourite watch for 2 years, would you like it less if you discovered that the case had been made in China, not Switzerland as you believed? Would the quality suddenly become less than you had judged it to be for those two years?

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    The question of what qualifies as "Swiss Made" is a situation which potentially affects every manufacturer who puts "Swiss Made" on their watches so it's not really fair to single out one manufacturer.

    I heard from a most reliable source that some premium brands are sourcing components in China but without proof, you won't find me naming them publicly. :wink:

    Let me ask a question: If you paid £2000 for a top-name watch and it was your favourite watch for 2 years, would you like it less if you discovered that the case had been made in China, not Switzerland as you believed? Would the quality suddenly become less than you had judged it to be for those two years?

    Eddie
    Eddie, the answer would probably be no, I would not like it less. HOWEVER, as YOU well know, people buy not just the watch, the case, movement etc, they also buy it because they perceive it in a certain way, pretty much like your watches, some of which are sold out even prior to being in production, your customers perception of your watches means that they associate them with a certain value/ standard. And buy them. Even if they fail to like them once on their wrist
    I may well buy a top name brand...lets call it the Santos 100 I bought recently...it may well be my fav watch for the next 5 years (it is not but...) serve me well, prove reliable and generally feel like a Cartier should......if however I discover in 5 years that upon service, my most reliable jeweller informs me that the hairspring was made in china, the case in Japan the dial in Indonisia.....I would be truly pissed off...one still associates Swiss made with manufacture, not cheap (if reliable) mass production as such. Pretty much like people driving Mercs or Rollers, it is perceived as ..... not it is like. To my mind this outsourcing of cheap parts will in turn be the demise of swiss horologie as we know it, those using those parts will gradually be perceived as items of less and less quality despite what marketing can do. It probably will not affect sales as most consumers are not as horologically educated as people in this forum, but there will be a decline from a certain group of people who know better.
    I used to date a lass that worked for Martin Baker in Denham, chatting away with one of the engeniers a few years ago he stated they they made ALL they items, including screws. That was the only way they could be sure of the quality and tolerances of every ejection seat. I think this is a prime example of where Swiss watchmaking should be going...but it is not.
    Snoopy

  9. #9
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    ......................

    Let me ask a question: If you paid £2000 for a top-name watch and it was your favourite watch for 2 years, would you like it less if you discovered that the case had been made in China, not Switzerland as you believed? Would the quality suddenly become less than you had judged it to be for those two years?

    Eddie
    As a WIS, in today's climate, I would say yes. If the out-sourcing was to keep the prices down, that I can understand ... but as it only happens for the single reason to increase the profit margin - the watch does not become less ... I become less.

    To all intents and purposes the case in my Zeno could be from China ... that wouldn't bother me - it's an entry level watch at an entry level price - but, if I am paying £2000 for a Swiss Branded item I would expect everything but the crystal to be made in Switzerland.

    As much as certain elements want this issue to die down, it will not ... and any attempts at 'damage limitation' instead of 'thought restructuring' will be seen for what they are.

    john

  10. #10
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    I'll answer my own question now. To me, the appellation "Swiss Made" has always been synonymous with the highest quality and meticulous manufacturing standards. Because of this, "Swiss Made" has always commanded a premium price.

    If an item was presented to me as "Swiss Made" and priced accordingly, I would be seriously disappointed to discover that it wasn't "Swiss Made" after all.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  11. #11
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Stella Artois premium Belgian lager. Brewed under license in the UK. If the rumours are true, perhaps certain "Swiss Made" watches should come with the small print "Made under license in the PRC", where appropriate?

  12. #12
    Grand Master Seamaster73's Avatar
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    Apple openly brand many of their products "Designed by Apple in California. Made in China". Hasn't done them any harm.

  13. #13
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    Yes it would bother me. If it says Swiss Made then that's what I expect. Same with German, with the exception of Swiss movements. But then is it a German made case with a "Swiss" movement or is it a German made case with a Swiss/Asian movement all assembled in Germany?

    At least the Japanese are honest. Just because it's a Seiko, Citizen, or Casio doesn't mean it's made in Japan, and they tell you on the caseback where it's made!

  14. #14
    Master docrwm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceS
    Yes it would bother me. If it says Swiss Made then that's what I expect. Same with German, with the exception of Swiss movements. But then is it a German made case with a "Swiss" movement or is it a German made case with a Swiss/Asian movement all assembled in Germany?

    At least the Japanese are honest. Just because it's a Seiko, Citizen, or Casio doesn't mean it's made in Japan, and they tell you on the caseback where it's made!
    Hi, have to agree with you on this one. My Seikos tell me if they were made in Japan or elsewhere either on the dial or caseback. I do see people paying more for "J" marked models than for the same model marked "K".

    I have nothing against Asian manufacturers - several of my favorite watches are Seikos and not all of them are marked "J" :D What I resent is being taken for a fool by some manufacturers. Its sort of akin to thinking that a world class surgeon is going to be cutting on you, you go under, and while you are unable to discern a change is made and the "Fellow" actually does the surgery while the World class surgeon is playing the back 9. :evil:

  15. #15
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    If I found out my Seiko "J" model was made in Korea, I'd probably feel a bit cheated. Same thing with "Swiss Made" imo.


    Extending what is suspected about what "Swiss Made" actually means, using entirely arbitrary numbers, and applying to Timefactors watches ...

    Swiss movement 20% of cost
    German case and assembly 30% of cost
    UK admin/packaging/design intangibles/guarantee etc 50% of cost

    .. then the majority of the cost of the watch is from the UK. Using the "Swiss Made" rules, does this mean that Eddie could say his watches are "Sheffield Made"?

  16. #16
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob
    If I found out my Seiko "J" model was made in Korea, I'd probably feel a bit cheated. Same thing with "Swiss Made" imo.


    Extending what is suspected about what "Swiss Made" actually means, using entirely arbitrary numbers, and applying to Timefactors watches ...

    Swiss movement 20% of cost
    German case and assembly 30% of cost
    UK admin/packaging/design intangibles/guarantee etc 50% of cost

    .. then the majority of the cost of the watch is from the UK. Using the "Swiss Made" rules, does this mean that Eddie could say his watches are "Sheffield Made"?
    Aaahhh, margins I can only dream of.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  17. #17
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    I?m using the Doxa incident as an example to illustrate a point, not to encourage any further discussion of specifics. Feel free to comment on my motives for making this post or to seek clarification but please do NOT try to resurrect the Doxa discussion or I?ll have to find the ?delete? button.


    Eddie

  18. #18
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    I really wish that any one company wouldn't be singled out for this practice, we've flogged this particular horse to death.

    If a watch is made to the rules drawn up by the Swiss watch industry, then it is "Swiss Made" according to their laws. It obviously doesn't matter to them where the various bits are made as long as the bulk of the cost is within Switzerland. The fact that a Swiss technician picking his nose for 10 minutes during his tea break accounts for 51% of the labour costs associated with a watch apparently qualifies it for "Swiss Made". This is the law the Swiss created for their own business and so it must be right.

    On a totally unrelated matter, I hear that the National Association of Burglars has just moved to introduce a law decreeing that kicking down a door to remove property from your premises is actually standard practice within the industry and, therefore, legal. You live and learn. :wink:

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  19. #19
    Eddie,

    I think you're spot on here. I was also very dissapointed with the "facts" underlying the claims against Doxa and their production practices, and ultimately got as much out of it as you did (hats and straps from China; the watches do indeed meet the standard for Swiss Made as do those by Tag Heuer, Omega, and others; and the Official forum is a marketing tool; whoopee).

    I agree fully with your comments and approach and applaud you for taking action and being clear about what and why.

    Thanks.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    I really wish that any one company wouldn't be singled out for this practice, we've flogged this particular horse to death.
    ...<snip>
    .... if you'd be so kind to provide names that have acted in like fashion, I would happily flog them too. :twisted:


    J.

  21. #21
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    By the Swiss choosing to play games, they have proceeded down a slippery slope that may prove to be their undoing, at least with
    regards to lesser know Swiss watches, i.e. Doxa.
    Oh I doubt any Swiss company will be undone J. The only ones who talk about this stuff are us watch obsessed on the forums, and we're a very small minority. The Swiss watch industry is big business and they'll carry on doing what they damn well please within whatever rules they make. They'll keep selling watches, too despite whatever we banter around on the forums. So will Doxa, whether we like it or not. :)
    Cheers,
    Bruce

  22. #22
    On the subject of "Swiss Made," while some may complain about outsourced manufacture, I think all will agree that quality is variable both internationally and intra-nationally.

    Consider, for a second, that there may well be Asian manufacturers who produce a higher quality product than low- or even mid-level manufacturers in Switzerland/Germany. Simply being Swiss or German does not guarantee high quality. Thus, it is entirely possible that a watch made with parts produced in Asia could be of a higher quality than one made entirely with parts produced in Switzerland/Germany. Admittedly, on average this will not be so since the average quality is likely to be higher in Europe, but this can be true where quality has been carefully assessed and contracted.

    I think the moral of the story, if anything, is that quality depends not on the point of origin but rather on a manufacturer's maintenance of high standards for quality. Many brands make very fine watches and no one asks about the origins of every nut and bolt because there is little reason to do so. Some of Eddie's watches are "Swiss Made," others "Germany", and others have the generic "England" on the dial. But no one minds and no one fusses (at least publicly that I've seen) because the watches are top notch when it comes to quality and a bloody bargain compared to what else is out there. I don't see anyone getting too angry about Tag Heuer or Omega or even Rolex calling their watches "Swiss Made" either.

    Misprinted dials, questions about warranty that went unanswered, etc. were the ones that got a certain 4-letter named company into trouble and got the ball rolling on "Swiss Made" in that forum. I would argue that it wasn't outsourcing per se but rather a lack of focus on quality that created the fuss.

    Interestingly, it was the german-made door hinges that failed on my otherwise wonderfully constructed and very reliable car (made in Mexico and sold to me by a Canadian, all under a German nameplate).

  23. #23
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    I totally agree with you Dean, quality is quality no matter where it comes from. Perhaps whilst claiming not to be, we're all too obsessed with labels, country of origin labels.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceS
    Oh I doubt any Swiss company will be undone J. The only ones who talk about this stuff are us watch obsessed on the forums, and we're a very small minority. The Swiss watch industry is big business and they'll carry on doing what they damn well please within whatever rules they make. They'll keep selling watches, too despite whatever we banter around on the forums. So will Doxa, whether we like it or not. :)
    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Right you are Bruce!
    I've done went and got myself worked up about this silly crap all over again!

    EVERYONE, especially Eddie, my apologies.
    You guys have known about this for some time and maybe it's just my naivete that's the cause of my angst.
    I'm doubly upset because the Doxa name was always a brand I had hoped
    to own and in light of the Doxa "issues" I have sworn to never own one.
    I'll try to move on...there's plenty of less controversial brands to choose from.
    The good thing is that I've discovered Time Factors watches and hope to
    one day get on a "Limited Edition" list. NO worries about any detail concerning where, who or how Eddie's watches are made! :D

    J.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    I totally agree with you Dean, quality is quality no matter where it comes from. Perhaps whilst claiming not to be, we're all too obsessed with labels, country of origin labels.

    Eddie
    Good points made by Dean and I too agree. The reason we are "obsessed" with this notion of where something is made,
    is because it used to mean something! Nowadays it's a damn guessing game and apparently it's not even worth talking about,
    or at least it's not worth getting your knickers in a twist.

    What still matters to me is honesty. If you ask a company a question they should answer it honestly.
    To do otherwise is to invite a fiasco...


    J.

  26. #26
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  27. #27
    Master JCJM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath

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    <center></center></a>



    J. </a>

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by J.Wayne
    ...What still matters to me is honesty. If you ask a company a question they should answer it honestly.
    To do otherwise is to invite a fiasco...
    J.
    But they did answer it honestly. They claimed clearly that Doxa watches meet the standard for "Swiss Made." As do watches from a number of other manufacturers (including, I'd bet, several brands you aspire to own).

    Just because you have a problem with the term "Swiss Made," doesn't mean they lied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grath
    Thank you. It seems that the whingeing about Doxa will never end...

  30. #30
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean in Canuckistan
    ..........

    Thank you. It seems that the whingeing about Doxa will never end...


    It's a Sisyphus. :(

    john

  31. #31
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    I?m using the Doxa incident as an example to illustrate a point, not to encourage any further discussion of specifics. Feel free to comment on my motives for making this post or to seek clarification but please do NOT try to resurrect the Doxa discussion or I?ll have to find the ?delete? button.


    Eddie

  32. #32
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    The UDF was superfluous to begin with.

    As it was pre-dated by the "Forum of the Banned" a.k.a. "The natural habitat of Doxa and those perennially concerned with that marque, good or bad".

    :twisted:
    Cheers,

    Martin ("Crusader")


  33. #33
    Not an apologist. A realist. And to answer your questions:

    1. No
    2. No

    As noted in my earlier post, Doxa clearly paid insufficient attention to quality when it came to their dials. You can add to this the issue regarding lume application on dials (some dials have a space between the bars and lume, others don't, some are uneven and obviously so).

    3. Yes, sort of. They were somewhat honest about the "limited editions." People just read it the way they wanted to read it. Think about the "2005 Edition" of the T-Graph. Nowhere did Doxa say there wouldn't be a nearly identical 2007 edition. Those who dug deeper actually did get a response from Doxa that described the finer details of "Doxa limited editions" if you read carefully enough. Further, a quick look at Doxa's recent history and the SUB750T lineup made it fairly clear that Doxa was quite happy to reissue "limited edition" watches by making small cosmetic or technical changes.

    4. Yes, absolutely. The meaning of "Swiss Made" is available to any idiot with a web-browser who can type the term "www.google.com". Many don't bother to check, which is fine. That's not Doxa's fault. Doxa didn't create the standard, they just followed it as does every other Swiss watch company. Doxa were very clear that the watches fit the definition "Swiss Made," nothing less, nothing more. Do you for some reason now also have a problem Rolex or Omega or Tag Heuer or Oris because these brands also meet the definition of "Swiss Made?"

    5. Yes, it is. They pay the bills and it's their forum which they use for marketing purposes. They can do with it as they see fit. You, as a free-willed individual, are free to go elsewhere. McDonald's doesn't let people trash-talk Big Macs and advertise Whoppers on their website because it's McDonald's website and is used to advertise McDonald's product.

    Now quit bitching about it already.

  34. #34
    Note: I'm not saying that Rolex, Omega, Tag, Oris, etc. outsource component manufacture. I have no proof of this.

  35. #35
    How did I let myself get dragged back into this?

  36. #36
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by abraxas


    It's a Sisyphus. :(

    john
    For those reading though all this crap, it feels more like a Prometheus.


  37. #37
    Master docrwm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    I totally agree with you Dean, quality is quality no matter where it comes from. Perhaps whilst claiming not to be, we're all too obsessed with labels, country of origin labels.

    Eddie
    Hear, Hear! I'm been admonished for saying that (not quite banned darn the luck) on two other fora in the past. I've had Swiss made schloch and wonderful quality from Asia and vice versa. I've got a Seiko Spirit 013 that cost me $260 shipped from Japan and I dare anyone to show me a better made "Swiss" watch for the same price shipped to my home from Switzerland.

    If we can get past the Eurocentrism we might just find some terrific work out there and not be gouged so often for watches that have toured the Alps country prior to being shipped off to us.

  38. #38
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    anon

  39. #39
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    Funny how the doxa crap keeps coming out when there is no need but few will attack say Omega for using eta machines in their watches when those machines are no interely made on Swiss grounds and are sometimes fitted with chinese batterys....

    Anyway, why dont we go back to perceptions....we are all old enough to remember say a Mercedes from the 80's, back then it was a car made in Germany, put togheter in germany, and perception was that it was a car for life...or at least would last a lifetime...and they often did.
    In the late 90's Mercedes moved the goal posts, and moved production and assembly so that now some if not most of the car was made outside Germany by people more used to make cars out of plastic and selotape....quality suffered a lot, still does, and people's perception of the brand has changed. The quality of days gonne by has gonne, the lifetime expectancy is also gonne, price however has not necessarly come down and people have found alternatives.
    Back when I was a lad grwoing up in Lisbon, every taxi available was a 30 year old Merc 190 that had gonne to the moon several times...and back. Today they use renaults and toyotas etc...the idea of paying over the odds for something that is no better then average has made people make other choices.
    Swiss chaps are moving their own goal posts to fit in with their requiered targets just like Mercs did.... lessons it appears are never learned.

    For fun yesterday I took apart a genuine Lacost watch that had stopped working...on the dial and caseback "Swiss made"
    Case I have no idea, so will shut up there, machine is a Mayota.....dial has on the reverse a print stating made in china, strap despite its "cuir veritable" also has a made in china stamp.... I wonder why cant this crap stop and call things as they are....I have a feeling in time nobody will care and pay whatever marketing dictates as a must have or fashionable and once again perceptions and standards are out the window. Pretty sad !
    Snoopy

  40. #40
    Master JCJM's Avatar
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  41. #41
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    Did anyone read this at the top of this thread?

    I?m using the Doxa incident as an example to illustrate a point, not to encourage any further discussion of specifics. Feel free to comment on my motives for making this post or to seek clarification but please do NOT try to resurrect the Doxa discussion or I?ll have to find the ?delete? button.
    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  42. #42
    Master Bernard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    Did anyone read this at the top of this thread?

    I?m using the Doxa incident as an example to illustrate a point, not to encourage any further discussion of specifics. Feel free to comment on my motives for making this post or to seek clarification but please do NOT try to resurrect the Doxa discussion or I?ll have to find the ?delete? button.
    Eddie
    PLEASE Eddie, kill this bl**dy thread.

    And lock it, it seems that there are some who don't want to stop about the Doxa crap.
    Your first post said all there was to say. Now we are confronted with 3 pages of this BS. :evil:

  43. #43
    Master JCJM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard
    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    Did anyone read this at the top of this thread?

    I?m using the Doxa incident as an example to illustrate a point, not to encourage any further discussion of specifics. Feel free to comment on my motives for making this post or to seek clarification but please do NOT try to resurrect the Doxa discussion or I?ll have to find the ?delete? button.
    Eddie
    PLEASE Eddie, kill this bl**dy thread.

    And lock it, it seems that there are some who don't want to stop about the Doxa crap.
    Your first post said all there was to say. Now we are confronted with 3 pages of this BS. :evil:
    Could“nt agree more :evil:

  44. #44

    Re: Smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    I?ve been thinking about this for a few weeks so that I could present a more objective post on the subject.

    Occasionally we see a post which starts "I've heard that", or "Somebody told me", followed by a statement which is usually less than flattering towards a company, product or individual. I'm happy to let these posts stand if the case is presented with some verifiable facts; sadly, not all such posts contain facts.....................................

    .............Many people asked reasonable questions or related their own experiences but there were a few people who appeared to have an agenda and it is these people who concern me........................

    ................It is not my intention to stifle debate which may be unwanted or embarrassing to manufacturers if the case presented is accurate and truthful but it is my intention to prevent this forum being used as a platform by anybody attempting to cause damage to any company or individual posting misleading or false information because of a personal grudge. Knowingly publishing false allegations leaves the individual poster and myself liable to civil action and potentially, the closure of TZ-UK Forum.
    Feel free to comment on my motives for making this post or to seek clarification .......................................
    Eddie
    Most of those responding have only really re-hashed the UDF points, but I'm really trying to get a clearer idea of what Eddie wanted/expected from raising this now, so yes, I would like some clarification from Eddie as to what the main question for debate is here.
    If I read Eddie's post correctly, then I see two separate issues from the post title. Smoke & Mirrors and Innuendo & Rumours. So are we just talking about individuals abusing the forum or is the smoke & mirrors bit a reference to how some brands may set out to mislead?

    As far as individual abuse of the forum goes, trolling and flaming will probably never go away completely. But from what I've seen here since I joined, posts that fall into that category seem to be picked up on fairly quickly and members here do not seem to hesitate in ensuring that blatantly unfair or trolling threads are quickly described as such; thereby redressing the balance of information.
    Lively debates however still get a full airing where there is felt to be some merit (dare I mention Rolex bracelets as an example? :twisted: )
    Whether the best policy is to totally ignore inflammatory posts and so let them quickly die (Don't feed the Troll) or, as is more often the case here, to have a number of respondents pointing out the lack of credibility in a post, is a matter for debate in itself, and perhaps Eddie's views on that point would be helpful.
    The "Smoke & Mirrors" bit, if applied to suppliers/manufacturers, is something that the D*x* issue definitely brought to our attention. (I'm here referring to the Internet WIS community.)
    Marketing obviously sets out to portray a product or service in the best possible light and manufacturers/suppliers are under no compulsion to voluntarily also highlight any areas where their product or service does not compare well to its competition.
    However, they are not allowed to deliberately mislead or to give incorrect information in response to a direct question.
    I would guess that many of those who frequent this forum can think of examples where a brands marketing is, if not breaking those rules, then certainly using clever wording to bend them as far as possible. Some of the so called "Special Op's" watch brands spring to my mind.

    So where does all this get us?
    If Eddie's point was, "do we have a problem with posts deliberately setting out to cause defamation"? then I think the answer is no. We have them, but any intended fires are quickly sorted, by either of the two self-policing resources discussed earlier.
    "Are we at risk from misleading advertising"? Yes, everyone is, everyday of our lives, and this forum can provide a good service in allowing debate as to the relative merits of some brands claims.
    A great many of our acquisitions are made without having the ability to physically examine the watch prior to purchase. We are therefore often relying on images, descriptions and other owners impressions gleaned on-line. Any information highlighting where such information may be inaccurate or deliberately filtered to the point of bias and therefore misrepresentation should be discussed and either proved or dismissed.
    Any feedback we can get from sources known to us (i.e. other members whose opinions and personal biases we have had time to get know) is invaluable and one of the greatest functions of a forum like this. Long may it be so.

  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by JCJM
    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard
    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    Did anyone read this at the top of this thread?

    I?m using the Doxa incident as an example to illustrate a point, not to encourage any further discussion of specifics. Feel free to comment on my motives for making this post or to seek clarification but please do NOT try to resurrect the Doxa discussion or I?ll have to find the ?delete? button.
    Eddie
    PLEASE Eddie, kill this bl**dy thread.

    And lock it, it seems that there are some who don't want to stop about the Doxa crap.
    Your first post said all there was to say. Now we are confronted with 3 pages of this BS. :evil:
    Could“nt agree more :evil:
    I'm with Eddie, JCJM, and Bernard. Enough is enough.

    Also my apologies to all for falling into the trap and debating the Doxa issue once more.

  46. #46
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    To answer Geoff D. I noticed that a few individuals lose no opportunity to beat Doxa with a stick in almost every sub-forum on TZ-UK. What we see is smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumour presented as fact.

    If somebody wants to make an allegation about ANY watch company/dealer/individual, then go ahead and make it as long as it is backed by cast-iron proof. If such proof doesn't accompany the allegation, then don't make the allegation.

    I don't want to see TZ-UK close because of a few disillusioned individuals pursuing personal vendettas.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  47. #47
    Craftsman
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    I hate that we ended up here again with the damn Doxa mess.
    I?m to blame and will be banning myself shortly?
    I want to apologize once again and thank Eddie for cleaning up the ?off topic?
    diversion we took yesterday. It will never happen again.


    Dean seems to feel that he has been the victim of a ?trap?.
    I?m unsure whether or not he blames me or the Doxa fiasco in general, but my intention
    has never been malicious. I can relate to the notion of a trap because I can?t
    seem avoid the ?lure? whenever I feel that questionable business practices are brought up. Regardless,
    the only bone of contention still remaining from yesterday is the issue of where a Swiss watch is made and how that?s
    represented to the general public. Doxa is by no means alone in this and actually it has broad sweeping
    implications throughout the entire watch industry. That?s why I made the very first post on this thread.

    Does having the words Swiss Made on a watch mean anything today? The Swiss sure seem to think so.
    Doxa owes their very existence to this Swiss pedigree and they never hesitate to flaunt it. If it?s all a big lie, that seems
    a big deal to me. And if I haven?t made myself clear, I don?t give a crap what?s allowed by Swiss law when I use
    the term ?lie?. They seem to relish this idea of keeping WISes guessing as to what is actually going on within their industry.
    And, once again, this goes far beyond Doxa, but because they are the first to make me aware of this, I have only
    their very recent fiasco to draw my conclusions from. This was the reason I feel that I also fell into a trap yesterday.
    How would their owners feel? How many future buyers would they have if the truth was to come out
    that they were in fact mostly or all Chinese made watches? Everyone owning one has surely asked this question.
    Just look at how hard John P. worked trying to squash the mere thought of this suggestion. His glaring mistake was
    using one of the older 600T?s to proudly make his case of where every part was manufactured. When asked to give
    the same account for the 750T, the silence was deafening. This only leaves me to draw my own conclusions.
    How many other brands are doing the very same thing? I don?t have a clue. Apparently they?re all guilty by association.
    I mean, if the Swiss law allows such practices, why not? I have no doubt that Doxa is operating entirely within Swiss law.
    Thinking about it more, it would only be foolish for any Swiss watch company to ignore this lucrative means to avoid the high
    cost of doing business within the borders of Switzerland. The Swiss are doing nothing different than most other countries.
    I guess its the labeling that seems to have stuck in my craw. I blame all of this on the fact that I remember when Swiss Made
    watches were clearly made ?in? Switzerland. The Swiss know this and are banking on our perception that a watch that is ?Swiss Made?
    is a premium worthy of paying extra for. We will all have to make up our own minds in this regard. You veteran WISes have been well
    aware of all this and I find myself embarrassed now because I have come to the party so late. What I guess it all boils down to is the
    quality of the merchandise and how well the company takes care of its customers. I do know this, I wont be paying as high a premium as I have
    in the past for a ?Swiss Made? watch. Thank God for people like Eddie, Mitch and Yao, I?ll be spending my watch money with them
    and hopefully avoid smoke, mirrors, innuendo and rumors...


    J.

  48. #48
    Eddie, thanks for making the point of your post clear.
    TZ-UK already has membership application review on initial registration to try to limit commercial and spam postings, and has had occasions in the past to revoke membership where people have been persistantly using it for commercial ends.
    So if anyone persists in using their membership privilege to pursue a commercial or malicious agenda after being warned that such posts are detrimental to the general forum purpose, then by all means revoke their membership. This has no comparison with "banning" members for expressing views that may not be popular with a site's owners. It is preventing blatant abuse.

    For the more "run-of-the-mill" inflamatory posts, well maybe we can add a new smiley to reflect our opinion?


  49. #49
    Grand Master Seamaster73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD
    For the more "run-of-the-mill" inflamatory posts, well maybe we can add a new smiley to reflect our opinion?

  50. #50
    Craftsman
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    Enough of this nonsense about the quality of Swiss watches and companies that advertise that they are "Swiss Made."

    Let's concentrate on the silent leader and the future of of high quality wristwatches, Pakistan.

    The Swiss have their Basel. Well here we are at the Peshwar watch show...


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