A new "Made In England" watch - how hard?

[Rev-O]

Hi All

Been thinking about some of the "British" watches.

All of them have foreign (usually Swiss) movements (e.g. Rodgers London, Christopher Pinchbeck of Lincoln, Simon Benney, Meridian Watches*)

Many, many more British brands design here and manufacture abroad (although many or most do the final assembly and other handfinishing here in the UK. Examples include: Dent, IWI, Schofield, Christopher Ward, Time Factors, RLT, Offshore, etc*)

*N.b. here an acknowledgement is due to Robert Loomes, whom I am loosely quoting from this post he wrote at pistonheads here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...ish+watches%3F

I suspect that both Pinion & Peter Roberts could also be added to the first list but I am not 100% sure. And, of course, Robert Loomes himself uses NOS Smiths 1215 movements, made in Cheltenham in the 1950's.

Anyway, I also recall Eddie saying that Petra and Konrad Damasko actually bought a machine to make their own movements. A quick look online seems to suggest that Damasko is now 20 years old and have been producing and using their own in-house ebauches since 2010 - making them a "manufactory" like Nomos.

How hard (i.e. expensive!) would it be to do something similar in England? Especially now with ETAs becoming harder to get.

And with the likes of Seiko churning out millions of very very well made movements at very very low prices would it even be worth it?

I was just wondering about the possibility some all-English movements for all those brands listed above. It always seems a shame that the single biggest and most important part of a "British" watch is made is Swiss (or even Chinese).

If Damasko can start doing from scratch it in Germany why can't we do it here?

What would it cost to do this? And how viable would it be as an enterprise?

Who'd be interested in looking at this with me and getting some investment to re-start the British watch-making (NOT just movement re-housing) industry? It would be nice to turn the current situation on its head and buy-in cases to house British movements.

Edit: sorry, not ALL have foreign movements: Roger Smith makes his own of course! Good info here: http://great-british-watch.co.uk/british-watchmaking/

[jchlu]

I'm not sure if your omission is subliminal or deliberate, but one of the front-runners in the desire to make this a reality is Bremont. They have invested heavily in moving as much production as possible back to these shores and as far as I know (I have no particular affiliation with them) they are constantly investigating ways to "complete the circle" and create everything here.
I know they get bombarded with requests for "in-house movements" but as I recall the infrastructure costs if the tooling machines etc is enormous - but it's something they'd like to do I believe, although whether a single brand could achieve it, who knows.
Maybe a co-operative or collaboration would be possible?

[Broussard]

Was reading similar discussion last night in the recently published second edition of Revolution UK - Ken Kessler talking to Peter Roberts. Roberts' watches are Anglo-Swiss (NOS Swiss movements, with as much of the remaining parts being made either in the UK, where possible). Struthers may also be a name to add to your list, as well as Hotblack / Hoptroff, Elliott Brown and another London-based brand, Mr Jones.

Worth digging out the YouTube of Roger Smith's views on the subject from Salon QP 2013.

[Artistmike]

That's a great video and one I hadn't seen before, thanks.

[StuartGR]

That's a great video and one I hadn't seen before, thanks.

I hadn't seen that either, and it certainly makes for interesting viewing. I think most of us on here would agree with Roger's central points - the Brits will never compete with the Swiss in terms of mass production and there needs to be British movements for there to be a genuine revival of the industry - but I'm a little disappointed that Roger doesn't offer any solutions to this. Surely he's superbly placed to round up the various disparate associations and guilds in the UK (of which there seem to be a few) and put together a plan to tackle this. He may not want that kind of job or may simply be too busy to attack it but surely someone with his passion for the subject matter could make this happen? We only really have a handful of brands in the UK trying to compete on the world stage so doesn't it make sense to pull resources here?

SGR

[Rev-O]

I wonder if some sort of crowd funding would kickstart this?

If two thousand people gave Bremont some money (£2k each?) to pay for the tooling / machinery and in return got a "free" watch.

(2, 000 x £2k - £4 million quid. Would that be enough? Factor in two thousand watches at cost, too. A thousand investors would also then get one of the first all-English watches since Smiths stopped in 1970.)

Anyway, you get the idea. I'd do it. Anyone else in?

Eddie? ;-)

[Satori]

Just to add some context to the in-house vs outside stuff (and hoping not to derail the thread) when I say above that some parts are made by local engineering firms I don’t want to give the impression that fully assembly ready components are delivered. Below is a plate as delivered and also a finished movement finished with the bridges added. As you can see there is a ton of work to do before getting to build the watch and of course all this work is done in house...

[Normunds]

Someone here said following:

To get into manufacturing you either make a few, very expensive pieces by hand or tool-up for the mass-market. Strangely enough, the low-risk and low-cost option is to make very expensive watches.

I don't think that we will see mass produced made in UK movement anytime soon.

[Lampoc]

I seem to remember Eddie saying he looked into tooling up to produce his own movements. The cost ran into the millions before the first movement was even produced. Sorry - can't find the post.

[Space Traveller]

Someone here said following:



I don't think that we will see mass produced made in UK movement anytime soon.

I agree, the Swiss and German manufactures have just got such a dominant advantage that it'll be extremly difficult to break into. When you've got the likes of Rolex producing a million watches a year but still selling them for top whack, how would a new manufacture compete with that, I would think it would be a similar level of investment required to start a new car brand and try to compete with the likes of BMW and Audi. Roger Smith is leading the way for excellent British hand made watches, and hopefully as time goes by we'll see more people like him crafting special British pieces.

[Satori]

.... hmmm. Runs off to google Ollech and Wasj. Nice. c1000 on RAF 👍

[kildareman]

Bremont are introducing their own movement this year.

[MartynJC (UK)]

Bremont are introducing their own movement this year.

I just noticed this was posted in . . . . . 2014!!

[Satori]

But it may be cheaper now? (See some of the comments above about 3D printing and new technologies / materials)

I'm intrigued that Damasko have done it, so it must be possible.

I'd love to see a British movement. Come on Eddie, get to it!

It is very significantly cheaper now. Design is CAD based and with the right designer you have a good idea that the movement works before you make a physical prototype. The first prototype can be made by a skilled watchmaker using traditional lathes, milling machines etc (this is the hardest bit) then when you have the prototype working you can contract milling of the plates, bridges, cases etc to engineering firms that have CNC machines and will do small volumes. Make most of the other bits yourself, buy in balance springs, jewels and crystals. A vast simplification, I know, but it can be done and for a fraction of the amount quoted 16 years ago. Now, if you want to tool up with CNC equipment and operators of your own, for large volumes, the costs will be much higher but that isn’t necessary to get up and running.

- - - Updated - - -

I just noticed this was posted in . . . . . 2014!!

Lol. I didn’t notice until you called it out.

[bitfield]

Unfortunately to the general population I think a "British watch" would be about as enticing as "British wine".

[markrlondon]

Unfortunately to the general population I think a "British watch" would be about as enticing as "British wine".

I see that as encouraging! British wine is increasingly well thought of. If a British movement could have the same gradual success then all well and good. ;-)

[Uriel]

I'd be in for something like the Bremont scheme. A 100% British made watch would move Bremont from my 'couple of nice models but will never buy' to my 'must have' list, assuming the watch wasn't too ugly/gimicky.

[aldfort]

It's all going to be about the marketing in the end. There are people in the UK quite capable of making and assembling a movement from scratch. They operate in the top end of the market and you might wait years for your watch. The moment you move down the scale you run into the brand houses with their massive marketing budgets. You have to be able to fight against that. So while it's nice to dream that crowd funding of a Bremont type outfit to produce their own movement would be do-able you've then got to be able to sell those watches in quantity to make the business viable.
To be honest building the brand first and then edging towards more and more British content is probably more sensible.

[markrlondon]

It's all going to be about the marketing in the end. There are people in the UK quite capable of making and assembling a movement from scratch. They operate in the top end of the market and you might wait years for your watch. The moment you move down the scale you run into the brand houses with their massive marketing budgets. You have to be able to fight against that. So while it's nice to dream that crowd funding of a Bremont type outfit to produce their own movement would be do-able you've then got to be able to sell those watches in quantity to make the business viable.

As per my comments above, I think it could be done by using what I called brand champions to initially exploit a semi-mass market niche. It's not what you'd call easy though and it depends on being able to recruit the brand champions in the first place.

I also think the design of the movement(s) themselves is a potentially difficult (and expensive) challenge. They don't grow on trees.

[RAJEN]

That is a fantastic post below by the Earl.

[RD200]

I found the machining fascinating having worked in engineering for 45 years up till xmas.
Everything was the same as I'd done my myself on conventional m/cs, only smaller, including the indexing head for gear cutting.

[Rev-O]

Well. Funnily enough I was talking to Eddie about this last week.

With CNC and 3D printing the costs must be coming down all the time. Starting from scratch in terms of r&d would be hard but copying an existing movement with modern technology would be much cheaper. A reverse-engineered copy of a Smiths 27CS behind a (Time Factors) Smiths dial would be very very cool.

The movement has maybe 50, 60 parts? Assembly would be harder than manufacture. I think you'd have to buy-in jewels but I know that the old Smiths hair- and main-spring plant is still operating in Nottingham, here: http://www.britishprecisionsprings.co.uk

From that, making the rest (dial, hands, case) would be easy. Not necessarily cheap but easy. But I wouldn’t really mind if they were done in China for peanuts.

Here's what said to Eddie:

"I reckon you could do it for £4k per piece. retail at £5k. A fraction of what Frodsham (whom I respect) or Loomes (who I don't) charge. David Boettcher could make the straps (although I think Darlena still have a factory in Dorset?). You could do a truly all-English Smiths, have great margins and good residuals.

Crowd fund it at, say, £2,500 per person, all of whom will get a watch. 100 backers = £250,000. Aim for a limited run of 250 numbered pieces, 100 for the backers and 150 to sell at, say, £3,000 each. That way the backers will have got a good deal. Might also get govt grant funding for business / enterprise. Be worth asking Bremont, Frodsham and even Struthers how easy / hard they have found and where they source parts. If people are already tooled-up or have learned lessons then it's got to be worth collaborating."

[PIERS (UK)]

Crowd fund it at, say, £2,500 per person, all of whom will get a watch. 100 backers = £250,000. Aim for a limited run of 250 numbered pieces, 100 for the backers and 150 to sell at, say, £3,000 each. That way the backers will have got a good deal. Might also get govt grant funding for business / enterprise. Be worth asking Bremont, Frodsham and even Struthers how easy / hard they have found and where they source parts. If people are already tooled-up or have learned lessons then it's got to be worth collaborating."

Sounds easy doesn't it?

Well if you’re going for it be sure to factor in the following;

- Kickstarter don't do stuff for free, so 5% of your profit will go to them. Then there's the card processing fee lets say 3%. Meaning a total of 8% off your margin.

- VAT ( for UK / EU ) so if your watch will be 5k retail if incl. Vat then £800+ to HMRC per watch.

Taking your early bird example, £2500:

£400 to hmrc ( if UK / EU customer )
£125 to KIckstarter
£75 to PayPal / payment provider

Meaning you’ll get £1,900 from each sale Before you factor in the rest;

- Prototyping and Machining costs for your watch, which will be a lump sum that’ll go against your margins.

- As it's a ’new’ movement, a warranty provision put aside for any work ( again taken from your margins ) you’ll need to undertake - even using ETA and selling 250 watches there will be some issues that will eat into those margins. Realistically a new movement needs a few years on test before it goes to market. Doing a handful it can be fixed, doing 250-500 then you have a major problem on your hands if there's a high fail rate.

- A bit of advice, spend as much money as you can on dial and hands as these are what people focus on. Good parts aren't cheap.

- i’m sure you’ll need to actually place your watch in something ( box or wallet ) after all it will retail for 5k, so allow at the very very least £25 for each watch.

- and unless you are an expert photographer and web designer ( as well as watch designer ) you might need to hire Professional services to make your 5k product stand out or to actually visualise it in the first place.

- finally, 20% corp tax on profits!

Best of luck! It's always easy to make a watch on your keyboard, but doing it in practice and properly is anything but easy!!

[Rev-O]

Piers makes some good points. As did a friend of mine I asked about this. He said:

"I think you’re underestimating the precision to which watch parts are manufactured. 3D printing doesn’t have anything like the requisite resolution and CNC milling would be fine for the plates, but the pinions and (probably) the wheels would need to be made on a gear hobber.

Not to say it wouldn’t be possible - there’s an Australian called Nicolas Hacko who is working on producing his own Australian-made movement and is documenting the process in considerable detail:
https://nicholashacko.com.au/manufacturing

As you observe even having the pieces in front of you, assembly will be another level of time and effort….

I’m interested as well to see Christian / WatchGuy has started fabricating parts as and when he needs them using a very inexpensive CNC setup:
https://watchguy.co.uk/cgi-bin/cnc

I’m not sure how close it is though - there’s a reason after all that Bremont / Chris Ward et al haven’t started making their own movements despite having plenty of cash to throw at the problem…"

Maybe not so easy after all . . . ..

[Alansmithee]

Piers makes some good points. As did a friend of mine I asked about this. He said:

"I think you’re underestimating the precision to which watch parts are manufactured. 3D printing doesn’t have anything like the requisite resolution and CNC milling would be fine for the plates, but the pinions and (probably) the wheels would need to be made on a gear hobber.

Not to say it wouldn’t be possible - there’s an Australian called Nicolas Hacko who is working on producing his own Australian-made movement and is documenting the process in considerable detail:
https://nicholashacko.com.au/manufacturing

As you observe even having the pieces in front of you, assembly will be another level of time and effort….

I’m interested as well to see Christian / WatchGuy has started fabricating parts as and when he needs them using a very inexpensive CNC setup:
https://watchguy.co.uk/cgi-bin/cnc

I’m not sure how close it is though - there’s a reason after all that Bremont / Chris Ward et al haven’t started making their own movements despite having plenty of cash to throw at the problem…"

Maybe not so easy after all . . . ..

Pretty sure that Bremont have an in-house movement planned for this year?

[earlofsodbury]

Sounds easy doesn't it?

Lots of good points, to which I'd say -

Many ways besides Kickstarter to fund projects, shame we're leaving the EU really - lot's of business startup grants, but there are still UK sourced ones as well. There are also dozens of companies doing what Kickstarter does, assume the less-well-known will charge less, but then a more normal business loan may well be cheaper still, just lacking the promotional structure.

Early doors, before you start having a significant turnover, there's no need to register for taxation, even if you register as a limited company - you can wait until you hit the appropriate thresholds for VAT, capital gains, business rates, PAYE etc.

VAT threshold is £85K sales turnover annually - going to take a while to hit that, and all of your expenditure VAT is refundable.

Capital gains - again, offset against capex + stock and machinery write-downs etc. You also have personal Annual Exempt Amount, plus Entrepreneur's Exemption available.

Lots of guidance available online, just takes time to wade through it - and it would make huge sense to talk to a financial startup consultant with a known track record.

In reality, you're probably looking at 5 years graft before it's more than a hobby. Considering it, I'm not sure that Britain has the image or reputation for precision engineering to compel much of an international audience to purchase. Going to need a uniquely strong USP.

[markrlondon]

Many ways besides Kickstarter to fund projects, shame we're leaving the EU really - lot's of business startup grants, but there are still UK sourced ones as well. There are also dozens of companies doing what Kickstarter does, assume the less-well-known will charge less

Indeed, personally I wouldn't touch Kickstarter or the likes of it for a project like this. I'd prefer to find and deal directly with backers. 100, as a hypothetical number, is not too many to deal with in this way

but then a more normal business loan may well be cheaper still, just lacking the promotional structure.

Loans, so last century ;-) More seriously, imo&e a loan for this sort of thing would probably be super hard to get, would require collateral, has to be paid back, increases project risk, and increases personal risk for the debtors/project principals tremendously. It seems to me that a project like this must be based upon non-loan capital and/or OPM: E.g. Personal funding by the principal(s), numbers of relatively small private backers, larger scale VC funding. (No, no one should go on Dragon's Den).

I am not opposed to loans being used for specific sub-projects down the line where return can be gauged through experience but they seem unhelpful to fund the whole new business.

Considering it, I'm not sure that Britain has the image or reputation for precision engineering to compel much of an international audience to purchase. Going to need a uniquely strong USP.

Whilst you and I do agree over several of Britain's failings, I don't agree that this is one of them. The UK is actually famous for very high value precision engineering in a number of fields. A precision engineered British watch (which can play on Britain's reputation for very high value niche engineering in automotive, aerospace, military, and other fields) is surely a USP in and of itself.

When it comes to selling abroad: "Yes, the guidance and fusing system in that American missile that just (very accurately!) blew up your neighbour's house was designed and made in Great Britain. Wouldn't you like a watch from the same place?" I jest, of course... well... mostly. The point is that the UK genuinely does do very high value precision engineering, both design and make.

[MrBanks]

The German state provides huge incentives to businesses to set up manufacturing facilities for the production of watches and watch components.

Best of luck! It's always easy to make a watch on your keyboard, but doing it in practice and properly is anything but easy!!

So true.

[zielony]

We sgtruggle with same stuff in Poland, but ppl expect also inhouse movement. Crazy, yea?

[Middo]

Because people don’t want to pay premium money for a non heritage brand, nor the extra expense of low volume British production.

[MattH]

The machines which Bremont have bought in to make their cases for example were about 1 million dollars each... Like any small business/startup the outlay for desiging and building your own movement would be astronomical.

Hence why all the micro brands start with solid reliable buyable movements to get their brands off the ground.

cheers

matt

[robert75]

Im curious, how do so many German brands manage to get off the ground? Is there a lot of government support over there? Granted many of them start off using stock movements such as Nomos but they seem to quickly develop into their own movements. Nomos, Tutima, hentschel, Dornbluth etc..... Only British brand I think of that have an in house movement right now is Garrick.

[Satori]

Im curious, how do so many German brands manage to get off the ground? Is there a lot of government support over there? Granted many of them start off using stock movements such as Nomos but they seem to quickly develop into their own movements. Nomos, Tutima, hentschel, Dornbluth etc..... Only British brand I think of that have an in house movement right now is Garrick.

Good point. I think it because there is a good infrastructure / ecosystem around watchmaking in Germany. Witness how many brands in the vicinity of Glashutte for example. One can much more easily find watchmakers, forge collaborations, find suppliers of cases / dials / hands etc when there is local industrial tradition.

Garrick, whom you mention, have been quite resourceful in this case. The local firms who provide rough cut cases and movement plates, for example, have the necessary CNC engineering capability but they are not specialists in the watch industry so some creativity is needed.

England does make for a harder base though obviously not impossible. As mentioned by earlier posters, volume is always going to be an issue and will drive price upwards. Again to use Garrick as an example; they make tiny volumes of their in-house movement pieces but even those are mostly shipped to China and USA. Nearly nothing to the UK consumer.

[Rev-O]

Only British brand I think of that have an in house movement right now is Garrick.

Garrick? Not quite: "The UT-G01 calibre was designed in partnership with eminent watchmaker, Andreas Strehler and his company Uhr Teil AG and parts are made in both the UK and Switzerland."

But Frodsham? Yes.

[earlofsodbury]

How pedantic is it worth being about sourcing? Mainsprings, jewels etc? You'd have to be mildly demented to try and source some of those in the UK. Any movement design will - at the very least - be derived from a pre-existing one, otherwise R&D will consume an 8-figure sum, and you'd be almost literally re-inventing the wheel otherwise.

Pursuing this notion is both noble and attractive, but what's the endgame beyond an ego-trip for all involved? It's going to consume a hefty chunk of capital, and - lottery-winners aside - it is an abiding characteristic of the wealthy that they got that way by being cautious with their investments, so a viable longer-term business model will be required.

[Rev-O]

How pedantic is it worth being about sourcing?

It's not about being pedantic, it's about the vague, ambiguous language. "parts are made in both the UK and Switzerland"

Let's say there's 100 "parts" with varying degrees of complexity, size etc. Bremont tried to pass off a Swiss movement as "in-house" because they'd made the bridge. I don't mean to sound pedantic, but that is one and only part -- and fairly big / simple part at that. I reckon I could bodge a plate or bridge as a one-off and some watchmakers will consider making a part if it's obsolete (eg there's a chap called Antoine who makes locking crowns for Weems as they are often missing).

But I accept that jewels, screws, oils etc will have too be bought in. Heck, it's only relatively recently that Rolex (@ just under a million watches a year) went all in-house (and, er, raised their prices as a result!)

[earlofsodbury]

... Bremont tried to pass off a Swiss movement as "in-house" ...

Except I wasn't talking about "Show-us-on-the-doll-where-the-watchmaker-touched-you" fallen-angel Bremont, I was referring back to the OP and the evolving discussion. Bremont screwed-up, as the dozens of threads lamenting it on this forum alone clearly testifies, but we really should all move on and be pleased that they are making a success of their business - jobs and taxes and all that...

Contrastingly, the recent reboot of Ollech & Wajs has been teutonically pragmatic - they specify the exact percentage of watch components sourced in Switzerland as well as where the rest is made. It was a minor factor in buying a P-104, but it was certainly a positive factor.

[Satori]

Garrick? Not quite: "The UT-G01 calibre was designed in partnership with eminent watchmaker, Andreas Strehler and his company Uhr Teil AG and parts are made in both the UK and Switzerland."

Was the case for a few early examples of the movement. No parts are made by Strehler in any current production watch. Springs and jewels are sourced from Switzerland (can’t remember where crystals come from). So, yes it absolutely is a UK manufactured movement. Garrick are better at making watches than maintaining a website thankfully.

[MrBanks]

Was the case for a few early examples of the movement. No parts are made by Strehler in any current production watch. Springs and jewels are sourced from Switzerland (can’t remember where crystals come from). So, yes it absolutely is a UK manufactured movement. Garrick are better at making watches than maintaining a website thankfully.

Who makes their escapement?

[Satori]

Who makes their escapement?

I don’t entirely know tbh. They can make the balance bridge and balance wheel pinion in house and I assume the escape wheel also because they cut their own wheels and have a range of lathes, wheel cutters, milling machines plus the skills to used them. Spring not in house. I asked about the balance wheel when I was in their workshop but can’t remember what they said. I have a memory of seeing some very rough-cut balance wheels and also playing with some rejected ones so they are definitely not bought in ready-to-go.

It has been nearly a year since I had any contact with them so take my insight as patchy and likely out of date. The trajectory was firmly towards more in than out though for sure and even then what they couldn’t make efficiently themselves was sourced locally unless impossible otherwise.

[robert75]

Garrick? Not quite: "The UT-G01 calibre was designed in partnership with eminent watchmaker, Andreas Strehler and his company Uhr Teil AG and parts are made in both the UK and Switzerland."

But Frodsham? Yes.

Many thanks,

Not too dissimilar from Christopher Ward then. I like what Garrick are doing and will probably buy one of their watches in the near future. I have owned several CW watches I have owned a few Timefactors watches all be it pre owned and would have no problems buying a Bremont some of which I think are quite nice.

Regarding German watches I deliberately avoided mentioning Glashutte as a few brands there have the backing of some of the big hitters such as Union, Glashutte Original and Lange. I do think we are getting there and we have some excellent brands out there such as Bremont, CW, Garrick. Loomes seems a bit over prices for what they offer to me. I do think all the ingredients are there we just perhaps dont recognise what we have as much as other nations.

Satori, some good points here please keep posting.