Smiths mil (W10) - RAF version (6B) issued to aircrew?

[Rev-O]

Hi All

The Smiths mil (W10) issued iirc from 1967/8 to 1970 also had an RAF version (caseback marked 6B rather than W10 but otherwise identical)

Was this issued to aircrew (in particular pilots)? Or would they have had a chrono of some sort?

Just curious.

[RABbit]

Issued to navigators rather than pilots, I think (like the Mark 11 and Hamilton). Why or when a chrono would be used in preference I do not know (the Lemania chronos were around at the same time so presumably would have been available). A chrono would make more sense for a single seater pliot, so perhaps that was the distinction. I'm speculating, I expect others will be along soon with facts.

[Rev-O]

Thanks.

Confusing that there's also a later (CWC) called a Navigator that I think is basically a G10 with a date.

I guess they gave the navigators watches with dates because the pilots could always get a date any time they wanted one.

:-)

[Myron]

I am certainly not the expert, but my understanding has always been that aircrew were issued the Smiths Deluxe. The caliber 27 movement was higher grade than that in the W10 and the dial slightly different.

Or was the 6B Smiths Deluxe issued earlier than the W10?

Myron

[RABbit]

The Smiths Deluxe has never been issued in the UK. it was issued in Australia.

[Myron]

The Smiths Deluxe has never been issued in the UK. it was issued in Australia.

Thanks Rabbit, but now I'm confused too. Knirim's book shows a Smiths Deluxe (p. 694) identified as a "Royal Air Force navigator's watch" from 1956 and marked 6B/542.

I have run into other references to the Smiths Deluxe being issued to the RAF. For example, Ewan's fantastic review of the PRS-29: "A Smiths De Luxe model with the 27.CS calibre would appear to have been issued as a General Service watch for the RAF in the late 1950s/early 1960s – this watch is now rare and sought after."

And this thread from sometime ago:

http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...tional+watches

Thanks,

Myron

[RABbit]

I stand corrected. There is the single picture in Knirim and a very brief mention in the text. Have you ever seen one or seen a picture elsewhere? I know there are only a handful of the Australian Deluxe from 1961 extant but cannot recall ever seeing a British one pictured anywhere (but memory is fickle as we know). It must be super rare.

[Rollon]

.................. was the 6B Smiths Deluxe issued earlier than the W10?

Myron

Yes, apparently so. I think the circa 1967-'70 Smiths Model GS.4701 (i.e. prefix GS = "General Service") wristwatch that MOD issued as "W10" to the Royal Army and "6B" to the RAF was intended to be broadly adaptable like the CWC G10s are now. I think another way to put it is that the watch was very well and comprehensively engineered but lacked specialization, which, as such often does, makes it work well under many conditions and for many uses.

EwanW here does the best reviews in the business and you are very right that a lot of clarity on these issued Smiths is available in the "Micro History and Background - Smiths Military Watches" segment of Ewan's great review of the TF Smiths "Military" PRS-29 > http://watcharoo.co.uk/smiths.htm

[Myron]

I stand corrected. There is the single picture in Knirim and a very brief mention in the text. Have you ever seen one or seen a picture elsewhere? I know there are only a handful of the Australian Deluxe from 1961 extant but cannot recall ever seeing a British one pictured anywhere (but memory is fickle as we know). It must be super rare.

No, I have not. In fact it does seem as though you run into RAAF examples more often than RAF. I will do some searching around over on MWR, as I *think* I've seen some threads over there recently dealing with the RAF Smiths Deluxe. But like you say, memory can be treacherous.

Thanks Rabbit.

Best,

Myron

[Rollon]

http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=41840

There's a bit of, hopefully, additional information about the Smith's Deluxe 6B on the thread linked to above at post #4 and some nice pictures at post #9 in case anybody searching might have missed them.

I had always wondered whether the Smiths Deluxe 6B had the MOD 1948 Mark XI specification evolved threaded steel collet secured screw-down "flanged" type acrylic crystal of the famous and quintessential JLC and IWC "Navigators", but the poster of #4 at this link to WMR appears to imply it did not which would lead to the conclusion it had the mil-spec domed and "armoured" steel tension ring secured acrylic crystal of the later Smiths GS.4701 W10s and 6Bs (which is the same crystal design still used for MOD's current CWC G10 type quartz 6B "Navigator", etc.).

However, note how very wide and Mark XI-like the bezeling of the Smiths Deluxe 6B's case is, which makes me return to wondering if it did incorporate the screw-down "flanged" crystal design of the Mark XI spec JLC/IWCs.

Another thing I was also still personally curious of was that apparently the Smiths Deluxe 6Bs and certainly the later Smiths GS.4701 W10s and 6Bs did carry over another of the Mark XI's signature features, the full coverage soft iron Faraday Cage that shields the mechanical movement from the accuracy disrupting effects of high levels of magnetism, but apparently MOD did not require the subsequent Hamilton and CWC mechanical pillow/tonneau case W10s and 6Bs of the 1970s to continue with that feature as I don't think these were so equipped.

Here's another resource I thought might prove useful in the long run in case any interested haven't seen it yet > http://www.smithswatches.com/collections/smiths-deluxe

And there's also what I thought a great photo of a, to me, absolutely beautiful 1961 RAAF Smiths Deluxe 6B at post #5 that has the Type '48 dial pattern of (most of) the earlier JLC/IWC Mark XIs and the later circa 1967-70 Smiths GS.4701 W10/6B > http://forum.atgvintagewatches.com/s...ead.php?t=1907

And there's always this I guess > http://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/A-GUIDE-TO...1402028/g.html

There doesn't seem to be much else out there on these Smiths Deluxe 6Bs that I could find in a
non-intensive search -- in fact, it seemed like every time I saw something that looked interesting, Myron, you'd already found it

[Terry]

Going back to Rev-O's original posting. The Smiths 6B and W10 were manufactured to Defence Specification DEF-3-B dated September 1966 titled Wrist Watch, General Service. The NSN assigned under this standard was 6645-99-961-4045. The scope of DEF-3-B states "This specification relates to wrist watches for general service purposes in H.M. Armed Forces".

DEF-3-B was superseded by DEFSTAN 66-4 (Part 4) Issue 1 dated 9th July 1969 titled Watches, Watch, Wrist, General Service. The scope of this DEFSTAN states "This specification relates to watches, wrist, for general service purposes in the Navy, Army and Air Force Departments of the Ministry of Defence, and in the Ministry of Technology (Aviation Group)".

In all likelihood the Smiths 6B may have been issued to RAF pilots/aircrew who did not qualify for either a) Navigators Watch or b) a Chronograph. The 1967 Smiths 6B/9614045 followed, or was issued, at the same time as the Hamilton 6B/9614045.

I'll follow up with more information on a different thread.

Terry

[RogerB]

Here's my deluxe, it does have RAF markings.
Roger

[Myron]

Here's my deluxe, it does have RAF markings.
Roger

Beautiful. Thanks for sharing this, Roger.

Myron

[RABbit]

Well, I have learned a lot from this thread, so thanks to all those who have contributed.
Thanks for the picture Roger, that makes 4 or 5 known examples listed on this thread.
I would be very keen to hear any ideas on how many Deluxe watches were issued. I'm guessing very few and would be the rarest of all the post-war RAF watches.
Could these have been made in a small batch for testing purposes or because the Omega 53 (the same specification as the Deluxe) supply was insufficient?

[Rollon]

Here's my deluxe, it does have RAF markings.
Roger

That is a very nice one to understate it, Roger, and also thanks for showing. Would you mind please saying if in your ownership of this original Smiths you have ever had occasion to learn if these MOD issue Deluxe 6Bs utilized the same backloading threaded steel collet secured screw-down "flanged" type plexiglass/acrylic crystal design as did MOD's famous 1948 Mark XI specification JLC and IWC "Navigator" grade pilots watches?

I ask because the bezeling of the case surrounding the crystal of these Smiths 6Bs is relatively quite wide and Mark XI-like exactly as would be necessitated if it did incorporate the same backloading screw-down “flanged” crystal design. In counterpoint, the later Smiths GS.4701 6Bs having the “armoured” steel tension ring secured type acrylic crystal can and do utilize a more narrow band of steel case bezeling surrounding the crystal as the “armoured” crystal design allows for that, whereas the rear accessed screw-down “flanged” type crystal design of the JLC and IWC Mark XIs did not

[RogerB]

That is a very nice one to understate it, Roger, and also thanks for showing. Would you mind please saying if in your ownership of this original Smiths you have ever had occasion to learn if these MOD issue Deluxe 6Bs utilized the same backloading threaded steel collet secured screw-down "flanged" type plexiglass/acrylic crystal design as did MOD's famous 1948 Mark XI specification JLC and IWC "Navigator" grade pilots watches?

I ask because the bezeling of the case surrounding the crystal of these Smiths 6Bs is relatively quite wide and Mark XI-like exactly as would be necessitated if it did incorporate the same backloading screw-down “flanged” crystal design. In counterpoint, the later Smiths GS.4701 6Bs having the “armoured” steel tension ring secured type acrylic crystal can and do utilize a more narrow band of steel case bezeling surrounding the crystal as the “armoured” crystal design allows for that, whereas the rear accessed screw-down “flanged” type crystal design of the JLC and IWC Mark XIs did not

From my understanding (and I may be wrong) The Smiths are almost a copy of the Mk11 IWC and JLCs, but just made in house as it were in the UK and considerably cheaper and supplied for that reason. It does seem in appearance to look very much like my early IWC Mk11. I've never taken any of them that far apart to give you an absolute answer to your question re the crystal.
Roger

[Rollon]

^ Thanks on that, Roger. The answer to that question I asked has been eluding me for years but I'm just now reminded of someone who I believe has serviced these so will ask if he can solve that vexing mystery and I'll post the answer if so.

Just for your own future reference as an owner of one of these very special Smiths, especially should it actually prove to have the Mark XI type rear loading screw-down "flanged" crystal design, and also for the reference of anybody else who might be interested, you can see some technical drawings of a slightly re-spec'ed replacement RAAF Mark XI “perspex”(plexiglass/acrylic) “flanged” crystal developed for post manufacture armoury installation here >

http://www.gregsteer.net/RAAF/Modifi...tion_60-1.html

[HansL]

All Smiths Deluxe that I have handled are all with flanged crystals and I view that Smiths Deluxe case has similar construction like JLC or IWC MK XI. In fact, I feel that the dust cover is close to JLC MK XI.

regards,

Hans

[HansL]

The Smiths Deluxe has never been issued in the UK. it was issued in Australia.

I really don't think that it is solely issued in Australia...

[HappyJack]

Thanks.

Confusing that there's also a later (CWC) called a Navigator that I think is basically a G10 with a date.

I guess they gave the navigators watches with dates because the pilots could always get a date any time they wanted one.

:-)

The Navigators (RN variety at least) needed the dates when looking up almanacs and the like for tidal and heavenly body (sun, moon, stars, planets) navigational information. I had a version with a date, then opened a package one day to find 3 CWC quartz divers. Much better looking, but they didn't have dates, so they were no good for me as a Ship's Navigator.

RN pilots were issued chronos; not sure about RAF but in two seaters at least, the guy in the back seat had one, whilst the pilot used the 3-hander, and presumably his cockpit chronos.

[Myron]

Very nice collection, Hans. Thanks for posting this picture.

Myron

[swanbourne]

No, I have not. In fact it does seem as though you run into RAAF examples more often than RAF. I will do some searching around over on MWR, as I *think* I've seen some threads over there recently dealing with the RAF Smiths Deluxe. But like you say, memory can be treacherous.

Thanks Rabbit.

Best,

Myron

James Dowling had one for sale on his website 4 or 5 years ago and he was asking close to £1000.

Eddie