Reply With Quote
I never lost a lot on Eddie's pieces.
Daddel.
In the past I’ve owned a Techne sparrowhawk II, Steinhart Nav-B Chrono II, Vintage GMT, Ocean2 and a Glycine Incursore Arco and moved them all on. With all my watches I tend to do a ridiculous amount of research (part of the fun) before purchasing and don’t purchase on a whim. My current ‘collection’ is only two watches a Seiko Spork & an Oris BC3, both I consider keepers, mainly due to my style preference and the quality vs cost.
So to my question, can boutique / micro brand watches be as good as their mass market competitors, in my below £500 price range?
There are many other small brands out there which I’d like to sample, the PRS-25 and the Kemmner Turtle are still high on my list… but I’m starting to wonder if I should just stick with the big boys.
My reason for moving on each of the watches has been as varied as the watches themselves, but on reflection quality vs cost seems to be a factor in each. All my watches are / have been second hand, and in my experience second hand mass market watches seem to be better value for money, mainly due the larger price drop from new.
Anyone found a micro brand watch that they think is exceptional value for money (second hand)?
I never lost a lot on Eddie's pieces.
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
I am going to oprder a PRS-22 as soon as Eddie re-opens tomorrow.
Looks like great value to me ay under £500.
These are two very different questions to me.Originally Posted by damocook
1) It depends how you define "as good" and to me this means overall quality, finishing, movement, presitige, pride of ownership etc. So in my eyes the answer is a very clear no.
2) Several - Any PRS, Steinhart, Deep Blue, Kemmner - the list goes on.
Our hosts watches tend to be stable pricewise on the second hand market.
Right now I am seriously into Vinatge VDB, borrowed pic:
... and the odd one pops up at near your £500 limit (but over) with many considerably more.
The full "2011" range (mine is similar to the one on the right):
More borrowed pics (I am a lazy photographer!)
I can't see them dropping in value anytime soon.
Gray
Micro brand that is a great S/H purchase? Eddie's all the way.
I've bought all five of the ones I own second hand, sold three of them for the same as I paid (a bit more in one case but shhhhhh) and am keeping the two remaining ones for ever (but could sell them for more than I paid). I do feel guilty about not buying from Eddie new, but that will hopefully be resolved very soon :)
Short answer: Yes.
Longer answer: It all depends on what exactly you are looking for in a watch and on how you define "good" for your particular purposes.
IMHO you should buy the watches you want and not worry so much about value second hand.
I think though on a second read that you're asking about watches that have tanked in price vs. new and so you are getting more for your money.
I consider the timefactors watches good value new or used but they don't depreciate quickly generally.
Ah yes, you're quite right, I missed that first time round. In that case absolutely look at Oris, Tag, Ball, ML, RW and other big brands that seem to die a death on the second hand market - great value can be had. It's a sound strategy :)
I've always wanted to enjoy micro-brand watches - and, if Christopher Ward can be considered in this bracket, I bought one of these when I first started heavily getting in to watches.
I think the crux of it is: these brands should be celebrated for doing something different that the larger, more established brands are too inflexible to experiment with.
I like some of the examples posted here, although I always suspect how much R&D and innovation (beyond styling) a microbrand is genuinely capable of, given the smaller capital available in comparison to the big houses. I am, of course, open to be educated on this point!
Thanks for the replies.
Apologies if I didn't make my OP clear.
I'm not into buying a watch for it's resale value.
I'm looking for the best quality / styled / finished second hand watch I can get for under £500 and I'm wondering if the smaller watch makers can competed with the main players given that second hand mass market watches (in my price range) seem to depreciate far more than the micro brands.
Oh well, in that case, have a look at the current version of the speedbird 3 with top grade movement for one.
I always think of this post by Kiki Picasso when micro (or boutique) brands are being discussed:
(From this thread: http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...outique-divers)
Perhaps a little harsh in retrospect, but very, very close.
______
Jim.
Then I reckon Timefactors would be a good bet. Eddie's watches are well designed, built and finished in my opinion.
Well, no, not necessarily. It all depends...
It depends from whom you bought and what you wanted or were expecting. I've bought Benarus watches from new, been humped by customs (the same as I would if I had imported any established brand's watches), and after the initial WOW factors I've realised that it's a well made (for the price), good value watch.
Not in my experience.
Boutique divers are a way to spend less, not more, on 2824-2 or 9015 powered watches. That's rather the point of them. It is only established brands that charge a fortune for 2824-2 powered watches!
This happens when you buy new from the majority of manufacturers, not just boutique/micro brands. It is only a comparative few manufacturers' watches that can maintain much of their retail price after purchase. Interestingly, one manufacturer that leaps to mind whose watches do tend to retain quite a high proportion of their value is Timefactors.
In short, it seems to me that Kiki Picasso's observations are all very well and no doubt valid in the context of his own expectations and experiences but certainly do not reflect my experience of boutique manufacturers. Small brands aren't for everyone. If you like what the smaller supplier can give you then all well and good. If not, so be it.
And, of course, not every micro brand or established brand will always produce good value. One should always be careful and choosy, no matter what type of brand one is considering purchasing from.
Last edited by markrlondon; 21st October 2013 at 16:30. Reason: Improved text and quoting
as others have said, it depends what exactly you're making a comparison with AND what you're comparing
I found my davosa ternos the better of the entry level tag aquaracer in every way & it was about 40% of the price
but if you compare the davosa to a omega or rolex then it's not even close (also on price of course ;)
in my limited experience, the 'big boys' give you all those tiny little touches - solid crowns, nice bezel action, solid bracelets, great end link fit, that are extremely hard to find in a microbrand
but they cost 10x as much... you pays ya money.... ya takes ya choice
when my non-wis friends ask about this, I use analogies like 'the sound of a quality car door closing' = it doesn't effect the drive, but if you're that way inclined you give a little smile every time you the close the door
Both my PRS-25 and Steinhart OVM are extremely well-finished, accurate and substantial for the price.
...on whether you recognise the irony in Kiki's post.
______
Jim.
It seemed to me that you reposted it here to be taken seriously, regardless of the original author's intention. Indeed, your comment "Perhaps a little harsh in retrospect, but very, very close" quite explicitly seems to me to suggest that it was intended to be taken seriously, rather than as satire or irony.
If I was incorrect in my assessment of your intent, please accept my apologies.
Mark, no apology necessary. It's difficult to judge intent on the flat of the screen. Indeed, I should probably have used an emoticon to
to illuminate my meaning with my "harsh, but fair" comment.
______
Jim.
Still haven't found that one, certainly not for that amount.
Almost everyone praises Steinhart, and it is a very good watch for that money (I do have one at the moment, Triton 100ATM PVD), but my opinion is that any mass production Seiko, even those twice cheaper, is better. If you take for example Seiko Sumo which has a simmilar price to Triton, both second hand, the overall quality outweighs on Seiko's side.
But despite all that Steinhart is still a very good watch, my favourite within microbrands in that price range.
There's a review on this site comparing a PRS 22 to an IWC of similar style. The PRS is available for around £400, the IWC for around £2000. In essence, a similar product, with a similar movement, although different build, branding. However, the differences are not clearly £1600 worth; more about detailing and advertising $$. In this specific instance, the microbrand product provides 85% of the value for 20% of the price. I'd say that's a clear statement of micro being far better value than mass market.
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...-Speedbird-GMT
That's a fascinating review. Very interesting just how well the Speedbird compares the the IWC: "level pegging".
That's a great compliment to Eddie, not to mention an indication what an undue influence marketing and brand values play in the price of a watch.
What's that V word... V...Ve...Veb... I dare not say it. ;-)
I am sorry. TZ-UK wis-dom will never be the blissfull same again ;-)
To put the dot on the ´i´ the V-word is only about a specific element of the marketing game; the price itself as excusive usp. It is the definer´s name for the self-fullfilling price exclusivity for mass produced goods. Desireability because of image marketing ánd price.
Allthough today a crucial bit, it is only párt of the game and an aspect which B&H most probably did not forsee.
Btw., I would like to introduce an extra distinction amongst watch manufacturers. Not bespoke but neither yet catalogue ´micro´. Let us tag them ´nano´.
I think VDB is more nano than micro.
VDB also makes it impossible to ignore homage makers like Davidsen and HelenaRou as nanos.
There is the other german brutal case very limited production maker too (I still regret not buying the one Watchscout had for sale) and hé makes me include the greek builder Esdee.
The nanos in general offer quite a lot vfm for products with, because of the nano serie size, a high % of craftsmanship involved and an also nano sized specialist niche market meaning that the products hold relatively good value. Worse than the best, better than the Swiss median.
They are the inverse of V-products. Cost plus minimal margin, NO marketing, NO image, NO desireabilty to a broader public and resale price kept ´up´ because of the cost of build.
Ah, sweet nanos; the inverse of the tulipomania in horology; if for nothing else then you still háve to love them for that ;-)
Last edited by Huertecilla; 21st October 2013 at 23:07.
I have owned many many small manufacturer brands from Steinhart, Boschett, Hexa and Halios to Kazimon, Stowa and Enzo. the main reason for me in going to these brands is they offer something outside the norm....can you see Rolex or Omega releasing their take on the Cavedweller? or IWC launching their bronze nautilus ii? and if they were to do so I doubt they would be in runs of 10 and under $4k us! for me its the design that counts when it comes to boutique or micro/macro. so yes the 2824 or the jap standard are a bit tried and true but its the ability of a WIS to have that other watch, the "what make is that?" watch, I don't think anyone makes watches quite like Kenzo Kazi, the little details on the case design, the colour scheme of the dial and hands, Enzo is a madman and it shows. Boschett, Halios, and even Dagaz are supplying to a market who want their product and are willing to accept its not AP, VC, Rolex/omega finish or qa standards but it is not in that pricing either. its the want of something left of centre.
as you can probably tell I have a bit of a passion for the small producer and while 80/90% will fall into oblivion some will stay and grow and push there design ideas & ethos further and further into the mainstream. to spend $1k and under you can by a mainstream "norm" or have fun, buy that one on the fringe of wearable.
now, when does this Dreadnought thing show up
I've owned a few "boutique" watches, but I'd say that the Seiko Sumo feels like a better-made, more complete product than any of them.
The bracelet is excellent and the styling's great on the Speedbird. I wear mine on a Nato though which some would say cheapens it.
Yes, comparing my Seamaster professional to the PRS-82 I'd have to say that as a complete package the Omega has it by a fair margin BUT with a few caveats:
1.) I don't actually want all those boxes and papers and hang-tags - which are, let's be honest, just an excuse to keep to keep piling on the pounds at the checkout. (Hello packaging; goodbye ££).
2.) I like supporting smaller companies and independents. (Remember how Omega treated Eddie over the Broadarrow thing?) I prefer any number of indie bands (even ramshackle amateurish ones) over polished and professionally produced mainstream "acts".
3.) I actually like the PSR-82 better as a design. No "wavy" textured dial, no HE escape valve (wft?) etc. Above all, no attempt to dress up a tool watch (e.g. look at Rolex's use of white gold surrounds on the batons and markers. Why? Again, an attempt to justify the price but also, crucially, a betrayal of the whole tool watch ethic / aesthetic.)
Once you put the difference in price into the equation it swings wildly in Eddie's favour. Swiss watches are cazily overpriced and getting more so.
So, all things considered I prefer TF to Omega. I've had four of Eddie's and two of Swatch's finest so I think I've earned the right to that opinion.
Yours, though, may differ.
Last edited by Rev-O; 25th October 2013 at 22:25.
I'm glad I've found this thread as I was keen to try and work out (not having had the pleasure of a TF watch) quite where they sit on the "quality" ladder.
Rather than simply accept the general "they're great and great value for money" I'm I'm trying to work out what that actually means - part of the reason for this is that a colleague proudly showed me their Christopher Ward a couple of weeks ago that "only" cost about £800, but it looked and felt quite similar to my lad's £300 Tissot PRC-200, rather than feeling like a "quality" brand that would retail in the thousands.
I know I'm now somewhat spoilt by the wonderful feel of both my Heuer and Breitling, but I know if I buy a watch that doesn't feel as smooth then it won't get much wrist time. I just need some reassurance that if I buy a TF watch, it's not likely to be happily received and then left in the drawer.
This is really interesting feedback on Christopher Ward, because not all of us have been able to feel what a ChrisWard is like in reality.
Do others' experience of ChrisWard tally with this?
I've had a couple of Chris Ward watches and the above rings true. I got them in sales from their website so was happy with the price I paid and they were quite well put together - I had a problem with one and returned it under their long warranty and they replaced the movement.
If they are around £800, then that is approaching Omega/Breitling/Heuer money and I'm not sure they are in the same league yet.
Very impressed with customer service though - I think the micro brands can offer a much more personal touch.
I've had a few micro-brands over the years.
I have to say that out of all of them Eddie's are by far the best quality that I've had.
Build quality, fit and finish are on a par (and often surpass) with watches costing far more.
The PRS 68 is a phenominaly well constructed and finished watch when you consider the price.
Very happy with the quality of my Chris wards - well put together and accurate time keeping. They do sell quite a few watches though and the odd one has issues but their customer service is good.
Perhaps not quite as good value as they used to be comparatively though.
Even happier with the quality of our hosts watches though.
The one i was looking at was this one:-
http://www.christopherward.co.uk/men...-cosc-sks.html
The owner (who owns a number of expensive watches) quite rightly said that if he bought a limited edition watch powered with a chronometer-grade 2824 from one of the major Swiss manufacturers that it would cost in the thousands. It would have been just as easy (probably not for the owner though!) to have said that if he bought a mass-produced watch with similar look and feel from one of the major Swiss manufacturers that it would have cost in the low hundreds
Much as I feel that the movement is important, it's not the aspect of the watch that you interact with minute by minute through the day. Though I get nervous using the "q" word around here, I do wonder what on-the-wrist feel could be achieved at the same price point by getting the accuracy from a robust quartz movement rather than from an expensive COSC ETA movement
Mein Gott - ChrWard watches used to be in the low hundred a few years ago, even their 7750-powered "Speedhawk" was only £600 or so.
It's their rude, rather chippy advertising that I don't like so they're not for me anyway.
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
They seem to go from £165 to £2450, and there's a lot of watches with ETA auto movements under £500.
What are the criteria which decide that a brand is a "micro brand"?
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Bigger than nano, smaller than mini.
Surely that's obvious?
Thanks, that clears that up then :-(.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Truth of the matter is I don't know, but I'm not sure there is a clear distinction, especially as these days it's possible for a small operation to to everything from assembling off the shelf components, through commissioning bespoke pieces to making from scratch, and volumes (for the first two at least) could potentially be very large.
I guess for me I think of the mainstream manuracturers as being those that you can buy on the high street and the Micro brands to be those that exist on-line, on forums and in sheds.
Micro - I guess for most of us is privately run, small volume (relatively) and generally is not marketed or sold by high street AD's.
At what stage does the brand move away from being micro? I don't know. There are certainly immergent brands and those on the way to becoming high street, or at least boutique.
Did the likes of Bremont start as a micro brand - or was a hell of a lot of money thrown straight into building a brand? Maybe Anonimo and a few others may fall into a similar niche - but they're both high street now.
Generally speaking high street may make sense for large volume but doesn't appear to make too much sense to most micro brands, where costs are much lower than established names and sharing any potential profits with AD's (and the possibly marketing budget the larger AD chains might expect) may well compromise the quality of the product.
It's just a matter of time...
I have watches from a few smaller brands, C Ward, TF, Benarus, Boschett, Raven, Orsa and G Gerlach. I like these watches because they let me have something on my wrist that is different from the mainstream. As for quality I have nothing expensive to compare with apart from looking at Omega and Rolex in AD's windows, my PRS 30 is my most expensive watch to date and I have no complaints with any of them. I have never seen anyone else wearing any of the watches I own apart from the Citizen and Seiko quartz models, which probably shows I am easy to please.
Posting Permissions
