closing tag is in template navbar
timefactors watches



TZ-UK Fundraiser
Results 1 to 39 of 39

Thread: Hand-winding automatic watches

  1. #1
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Belfast
    Posts
    425

    Hand-winding automatic watches

    I've read in the past that some automatic movements are not designed for regular hand-winding.

    Apparently some grades of automatic watch movements use less hard-waring parts in the winding train - e.g. brass rather than steel. The idea is that regular hand-winding can prematurely damage the movement by stripping these parts. The advice is sometimes to shake an automatic to start it running, rather than hand-wind it.

    Seems to make sense to avoid unnecessary wear on the winding train, but this will obviously have an effect on the power reserve and timekeeping of the watch.

    Obviously it would be fine to hand-wind these movements occasionally - they're just not designed to be wound on a regular basis.

    Any substance to all this?

  2. #2
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    17,883
    It depends on the movement.

    Omega 550/560s don`t really like being hand-wound, it increases wear and tear on the winding mechanism. ETA 2824 and 2836 movements seem to wear prematurely if hand-wound.....I`ve got an absolute howler on my bench at the moment that's worn itself out through excessive hand-winding over many years; I`ve had to replace the mainplate plus several other parts. Handwinding plus lack of lubrication is a recipe for problems.

    If the watch has stopped I would suggest around 10 winds to get it running properly.

    Some of the older hand-wound movements seem bombproof. The parts are bigger and therefore designed to take more wear and tear.

    Paul

  3. #3
    Hmmm, that's interesting. I have never known the reason, but I have found my automatics start easier with a little shake than they do by trying to wind them manually. I also find that some of them 'feel like' they don't want to be wound manually, so I don't. A little shake for just a couple of seconds in usually enough to set and wear it straight away.

  4. #4
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Cambridge
    Posts
    54
    Interesting thread. One of the jewelers I use told me I should always give my automatics a few winds each day if im not wearing them to "keep them going". I hope im not causing them premature wear!

  5. #5
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Belfast
    Posts
    425
    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    It depends on the movement.

    Omega 550/560s don`t really like being hand-wound, it increases wear and tear on the winding mechanism. ETA 2824 and 2836 movements seem to wear prematurely if hand-wound.....I`ve got an absolute howler on my bench at the moment that's worn itself out through excessive hand-winding over many years; I`ve had to replace the mainplate plus several other parts. Handwinding plus lack of lubrication is a recipe for problems.

    If the watch has stopped I would suggest around 10 winds to get it running properly.

    Some of the older hand-wound movements seem bombproof. The parts are bigger and therefore designed to take more wear and tear.

    Paul
    Thanks for the info Paul! One for the watch-winder sceptics?

  6. #6
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Manchester UK
    Posts
    368
    Any info on the Valjoux 7750?

    If hand winding knackers up the movement I will blow the dust off my expensive ornament 4-watch winder that hardly gets used.

  7. #7
    Master
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Bedfordshire
    Posts
    1,048
    Interesting topic, especially as the ETA 2824 has been flagged - I have a number of watches with this movement and do sometimes hand wind them when I swap watches.
    Might start giving them a bit of a shake instead then.

  8. #8
    I would only hand wind an automatic watch to start it going.
    Last edited by AndySquirrel; 8th October 2013 at 20:21.

  9. #9
    Craftsman Aquavit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Here & there, mostly there
    Posts
    784
    Assuming most "modern" watches were designed as autos does it follow that they should only be manually wound sparingly rather than a "full wind" when they are taken out of the watch box to be worn in rotation. I always worry I've not given them enough charge to keep them running accurately so fully wind before putting them on my wrist. I can see the advantage of an automatic movement for the one watch guy, but for the multiple owner/wearer surely there's less of an advantage in an auto given it adds weight, bulk and (I presume) complication?

    I enjoy winding my watches and would actually prefer manuals to autos given a choice (I sold my SKX007 in part because it wouldn't handwind), so do I give up on my little fetish and just wave them around?? Seems a little soulless

  10. #10
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,008
    Paul, many thanks for the useful info. By lack of lubrication, is this something that regular servicing resolves?

  11. #11
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    17,883
    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitstew View Post
    Interesting thread. One of the jewelers I use told me I should always give my automatics a few winds each day if im not wearing them to "keep them going". I hope im not causing them premature wear!
    Totally unnecessary IMO. No need to 'keep them going'

    Paul

  12. #12
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    17,883
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Paul, many thanks for the useful info. By lack of lubrication, is this something that regular servicing resolves?
    Yes, that's the general idea. If a watch is serviced correctly the whole movement is stripped to component parts, cleaned, then reassembled with fresh lubricants.

    Oil applied to the winding gears will wear away eventually. Mechanical watches should be relubricated every few years; I`d recommend every 3 years for a hand-wound that's used regularly.

    Paul

  13. #13
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    17,883
    Quote Originally Posted by teadazed View Post
    Interesting topic, especially as the ETA 2824 has been flagged - I have a number of watches with this movement and do sometimes hand wind them when I swap watches.
    Might start giving them a bit of a shake instead then.
    The ETA 2824/2836 movements aren`t my favourites at the moment! I`ve spent many hours trying to fix one that's basically worn out and damage has been caused by excessive hand-winding and no lubrication. If neglected, this seems to be a problem area.......but I`m talking about a watch that's around 35 yrs old so it's had a fair innings.

    Just got another one in today, a TAG with an ETA 2824-based movement. The watch isn`t 4 years old but the crown is far stiffer than it should be. The keyless work/winding mechanism on these seems to be a weak spot; thankfully parts are available and cheap.

    Paul

    Edit: http://forums.watchuseek.com/f6/eta-...on-605616.html

    This shows exactly what I`m saying; I`ve got 2 movements on my bench in similar condition to this.
    Last edited by walkerwek1958; 9th October 2013 at 10:12.

  14. #14
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    17,883
    Quote Originally Posted by abbs View Post
    Any info on the Valjoux 7750?

    If hand winding knackers up the movement I will blow the dust off my expensive ornament 4-watch winder that hardly gets used.
    Not necessary: simply give the watch a few hand-winds when you come to wear it and it'll be fine. It6 doesn`t need fully winding, just enough to get sufficient energy into the mainspring to get the watch running with decent amplitude.

    Most Seikos don`t hand-wind; they rely solely on the auto-winding.

    Paul

  15. #15
    I find that I can get enough charge into my auto with a few quick shakes. Probably not a good idea with something more fragile.

  16. #16
    Craftsman Badger Plus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Lancashire
    Posts
    308
    I prefer to gently stir mine in order to get them going - I'd never shake a watch. Controversially this technique can also be applied to martini; shaking it bruises the gin. This is not applicable to a vodka martini of course so you can shake a submariner with gay abandon.

  17. #17
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,008
    Stirred but not shaken? LOL :)

    I conclude from Paul's advice that the way to go is <10 hand winds, then wear normally.

  18. #18
    Master NenoS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Karlovac, Croatia
    Posts
    1,426
    I think fast shaking the watch is not a good practice. It can interfere with balance wheel and hairspring internal frequency so the watch can speed up or slow down for more then several seconds in just one minute of shaking, depending of particular movement bph. The shaking freq of about 1/2 bph rate is the most interfering one.

  19. #19
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    17,883

  20. #20
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    London
    Posts
    115
    Sorry to go thread grave digging, but surely a watch that can go over 200 metres underwater, with or without screw-down crowns and tegimented or other hardening technology, can handle being wound?

    I mean, how fragile are we making these things out to be?

    It's like not ever taking a sports car above 4000 RPM, or never taking a Range Rover off-road?

    If my analogy breaks down because these cars were built for it, and automatic movements weren't, doesn't that indict the movements quite severely?

    The idea that ETA or other movement makers would use lower quality materials on the winding mechanism (brass instead of steel) really rubs me the wrong way, given the craftmanship in every other aspect.

  21. #21
    I can confirm that the 2824 doesn't like hand-winding, having had to have the keyless works replaced on a fairly new (and lubricated) watch. Couple that with the fact that many are stiff to wind anyway, and the presence of a 2824/36 movement can put me off a watch.

  22. #22
    I have read that the sellita SW-200 was upgraded the 200-1 precisely because of an issue with teeth shearing off during hand winding. Apparently they changed the shape of the teeth on the offending wheel and now all is good. The sellita is a 'clone' of the 2824, found in Oris, my Sinn U1T (hence my knowledge via googling!) And lots of other brands with the ETA supply drying up

  23. #23
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Kent, UK
    Posts
    780
    I don't tend to hand wind any of them now. When I want to start one I slap it on a winder in boost mode and give it about 10 minutes or so. Then set the time and off we go.

  24. #24
    I worked with a girl years ago who came from a wealthy family and I noticed she used to alternate a men's day/date, mid size yachtmaster and a gold Submariner. I asked her about her watches one day (I was young and she was incredibly hot in that long blond hair, long tanned legs way so it took me a while to pluck up the courage to speak to her!) And she said she liked them but they were forever going back to Rolex as they kept stopping overnight. She explained she took them off at night and put them next to the bed, and they'd just stop. Basically she had no idea you could hand wind them, would set the watch in the morning, give it a few shakes then head off to work - never building enough power reserve. So I'm not convinced that a few winds and onto the wrist really works unless you then go for a brisk walk? - anyhow, once we got talking we would often go out for a platonic drink (she was engaged to a wealthy surgeon) and she remains a friend, so I'm very glad I struck up our watch conversation!

  25. #25
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    17,883
    Quote Originally Posted by tribe125 View Post
    I can confirm that the 2824 doesn't like hand-winding, having had to have the keyless works replaced on a fairly new (and lubricated) watch. Couple that with the fact that many are stiff to wind anyway, and the presence of a 2824/36 movement can put me off a watch.
    Part of the problem is the gearing; the hand-winding is too 'high geared' and hence the effort neded (and pressure on the crown wheel teeth) is relatively high. They do like to be lubricated properly, and it helps to lubricate the back of the winding wheel to prevent it wearing against the case (ETA don`t tell you to do this, but judging from the wear patterns on older watches it's a wise thing to do). I question whether the keyless work is lubricated thoroughly enough from new on some of these.

    A 2824 takes around 30 twists to fully wind. Give it a few winds to get it running and it should be OK, provided you don`t have a very sedate life.

    A lot of this is common sense. A few winds when a watch is put on will do no harm; hand-winding vigorously every day is another matter.

    Paul

  26. #26
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    17,883
    Quote Originally Posted by patnmand View Post
    I don't tend to hand wind any of them now. When I want to start one I slap it on a winder in boost mode and give it about 10 minutes or so. Then set the time and off we go.
    Strange....why bother doing this instead of giving it a few hand-winds? Is here something magical about a watch-winder?......never though of it as a labour-saving device!

  27. #27
    Master
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    5,655
    That's where you're going wrong, Paul. You're missing a trick there.

  28. #28
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    17,883
    Quote Originally Posted by PJ S View Post
    That's where you're going wrong, Paul. You're missing a trick there.
    Maybe you're right........I think I`m missing a few tricks thesedays!

    I could do with buying a watchwinder to check watches after servicing them. I bought a cheapo and it keeps stopping.....which rather defeats the object.

    Paul

  29. #29
    Master Nigeyp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,123
    wouldnt know only have one watch that i wear and its a Longines automatic...never had to wind it have a qtz beater but im not rough enough

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by patnmand View Post
    I don't tend to hand wind any of them now. When I want to start one I slap it on a winder in boost mode and give it about 10 minutes or so. Then set the time and off we go.
    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Strange....why bother doing this instead of giving it a few hand-winds? Is here something magical about a watch-winder?......never though of it as a labour-saving device!
    I have to agree, using a winder in that way is pointless and a waste of time.
    Winders are useful if you have a watch with several complications which can be a pain to set should it stop, or you don't wear them often but want them good to go without having to wind them and set them each time.

  31. #31
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Kent, UK
    Posts
    780
    Quote Originally Posted by rob-vicar View Post
    I have to agree, using a winder in that way is pointless and a waste of time.
    Winders are useful if you have a watch with several complications which can be a pain to set should it stop, or you don't wear them often but want them good to go without having to wind them and set them each time.
    Well it's horses for courses isn't it. I used to have an Orient Bambino which couldn't be hand wound so you had to start it that way. I'm never in a hurry when starting a watch and always do it the day before I want to wear it. Putting it on the winder gives it a full charge, then I can set it and put it in the watch box ready for the next day. A few winds won't do that, and this thread is all about auto watches that don't like to be hand wound. You may not like the way I do it, but it does no harm to the watch and suits the way I wear them.

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by patnmand View Post
    Well it's horses for courses isn't it. I used to have an Orient Bambino which couldn't be hand wound so you had to start it that way. I'm never in a hurry when starting a watch and always do it the day before I want to wear it. Putting it on the winder gives it a full charge, then I can set it and put it in the watch box ready for the next day. A few winds won't do that, and this thread is all about auto watches that don't like to be hand wound. You may not like the way I do it, but it does no harm to the watch and suits the way I wear them.
    Ah, in respect of the Bambino I get the winder idea, I have a Seiko 5 that can't be hand wound I'll have to try it.
    BTW a few winds will charge up an auto fully, 30-40 winds is about average.

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Strange....why bother doing this instead of giving it a few hand-winds? Is here something magical about a watch-winder?......never though of it as a labour-saving device!
    Wouldn't this get around the problem that you've just described? That a 2824 (and others) don't like handwinding due to old lube or being overgeared. If charging from the rotor is more mechanically sympathetic then charging by putting it on a winder, although inconvenient if not planned in advance, would be a better option wouldn't it?

  34. #34
    Master lysanderxiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    N 28 deg, 31' 18.4902 W80 deg 33' 40.035"
    Posts
    6,022
    Quote Originally Posted by Ontological View Post
    Sorry to go thread grave digging, but surely a watch that can go over 200 metres underwater, with or without screw-down crowns and tegimented or other hardening technology, can handle being wound?

    I mean, how fragile are we making these things out to be?

    It's like not ever taking a sports car above 4000 RPM, or never taking a Range Rover off-road?

    If my analogy breaks down because these cars were built for it, and automatic movements weren't, doesn't that indict the movements quite severely?

    The idea that ETA or other movement makers would use lower quality materials on the winding mechanism (brass instead of steel) really rubs me the wrong way, given the craftmanship in every other aspect.
    Actually, it is like taking a car to the limit, or over, rpm. It has to do with loading and gear ratios. The winding mechanism is designed to take a large number of revolutions of the rotor to make very small movements of the spring. That's how a rotor that is only a few grams in mass can supply several ounces-inches of torque to winds the watch. When you hand wind the watch, you are back driving this gear train and what is normally very lightly loaded and spins very slowly starts seeing huge loads and very high speeds. This tends to wear things out prematurely.

  35. #35
    Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Hertfordshire
    Posts
    1,629
    When I first got an automatic - so long ago that I can't even remember what it was - I didn't know automatics could be hand wound. I gave it a shake and off it went. I have done that ever since and consequently have never wound an auto. I haven't seen the need - but I take the point about shaking a potential fragile watch.

    ATB

    Jon

  36. #36
    Craftsman Harry's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    259
    I hand wind my 1960s Rado with its AS 1859 movement every night before I go to bed. I doesn't have a huge power reserve, and if I have a sleep in it can come to a stop.

  37. #37
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    London
    Posts
    52
    Quote Originally Posted by NenoS View Post
    I think fast shaking the watch is not a good practice. It can interfere with balance wheel and hairspring internal frequency so the watch can speed up or slow down for more then several seconds in just one minute of shaking, depending of particular movement bph. The shaking freq of about 1/2 bph rate is the most interfering one.
    But aren't movements shock resistant? Isn't shaking same as running for example, that means you can't run for longer period of time with automatic watch? Makes no sense.

  38. #38
    Master Neilw3030's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Exeter, Devon, UK
    Posts
    3,621
    Are not just being over precious with our watches in adopting winding rituals or techniques. Untold millions of autos are sold to non wis and they don't break or go wrong very often. I like to take care of what I have but surely they are made to take pretty much anything our bodies are going to reasonably expience .

  39. #39
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Uk
    Posts
    589
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquavit View Post
    I sold my SKX007 in part because it wouldn't handwind
    You're not the only one - I sold mine for the same reason. It was part of a rotation for me so I need to be able to manually wind to stop them running flat. Thus not being able to wind the SKX meant it was always flat and I would never reach for it... a recipe for a flip!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •