Reply With QuoteI like the name,
If you read it too quickly it appears to say - Grumpy Granma
Some interesting looking options here though not all to my taste. The brass models at $210?? A bit of a bargain even if they are actual brass and not bronze. Just don't thump it on anything really hard i suppose.
http://www.gruppogammawatches.com/index.html
I like the name,
If you read it too quickly it appears to say - Grumpy Granma
Are these Grumpy Grandma watches not just Parnis under a different name?
On a separate topic, there is a thread at the moment on watchuseek about brand names and logos that put you off wearing a watch...... Just saying is all.
Originally Posted by Reeny
An overdue visit to an optician methinks?
Compared to say, the brass Magrette models, these are pretty nice!
For one, the crown is also brass and the numerals a a bit more to my taste.
You do however, sacrifice the Miyota movement, and the caseback is plated, which seems a little pointless.
Maybe it's more like a Freudian slip of thought. The same way, when I see a Bvlgari watch, I always think "Vulgari" - but that's just silly me.An overdue visit to an optician methinks?
Thanks for the heads up.
I realy like this Rolex case which Panerai evolved and grew the crown guard.
The classic dial bronze would make a nice beater to go with my Davidsen Kristall http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?217919-Davidsen
There is not much in it actually and as long as you don´t hold two aged examples back to back, knowing which one is which material, only a eagle eyed expert will notice the difference in patina.
The brass crown AND buckle are dotting the i´s.
The case back is in steel because is would need to be thicker in brass. I am uncertain about the desireability of the brass plating as you really do not want brass (or branze) on your skin; it wears dirty untill it has developed a good patina.
A bit of horse sweat would speed up the aging process umpteenfold.
The Seagull movement is quite ok and if I would change my mind I have an ETA and several Kristalls to choose a transplant from.
The strap looks reasonable too and a candidate for some aging but I could make a replacement easy enough.
Just had a further look through their website. Didn't realise that the name is actually the name of Italian special forces that sunk allied ships during WW2. I think that pretty much gives me more reason to not purchase from them.
Bit odd the history section too "Roman numerals point to Italy, Arabic numerals point to Arabia" er, yeah OK!
Well, that argument applies to all military theme watches*.
The vintage Panerai by Rolex ´Kampfschwimmer´ homaging watches are pretty bad in that respect, but all military diver´s watches are tainted by the same issue and the allied bombers watches are the BY FAR worst of all; they were literally instrumental in carpet bombing cities.
It is all related to killing and the rest is subjective, dominantly from the winner´s pov.
* the ultimate silly example is given by the americans in typical selfcentred manner dubbing the Casio F91-W the ´terrorist watch´.
Well, it is their origins.
Swiss marketing spins far odder stories to sell historic associations for their automated mass production.
This sort of thing is done much better elsewhere.
Yes I know the history of various watch companies and their dubious links in the past but that one is something else. I mean what next a Luftwaffe Pilots Watch? Gestapo trench watch? IWC and all the rest of them had dodgy clients but they hardly sing about it like its something to be proud of and whoever bought a Casio watch is irrelevant especially considering the biggest buyers of Casio are probably 12 year old kids.
I think I would feel a bit different about IWC or Stowa if on their website they had pictures of WW2 German fighter pilots wearing their watches or "Vintage photos" Of Hitler wearing one of their timepieces. Its not about who may have worn the watch its the fact this company have named themselves after a WW2 diving team that blew up allied boats, post pictures of their watches worn by Mussolini and have WW2 axis veterans wearing their watches.
And no, I don't equate an army and government that mass killed millions in the name of racial genocide to allied bombing in WW2. There is nothing "Subjective" About it.
For the price (esp. brass models) look pretty good.
That itself is a product of subjectivity.
It is ALL relative and the travesty of the rightuous with the biggest club is reigning today just as ever. The total hypocrcy of the Syrian excuse acryllic clear.
Anyway; I prefer sterile watches.
Although I quite like the idea of this brass Rolex proto case, I would prefer to DIY a sterile vintage sub. as a companion for the Davidsen Kristall.
There's lots of watches out there connected with or inspired by military and past warfare. Some originating from one side of the fence, some from the other. Eddie sells quite a few from one of the sides of that fence and he also had one from the other side (the Aerowatch Chrono which was a paraphrase over a WWII Luftwaffe pilot watch). But watches as such are not good or bad. The people who did WWII warfare may be, but it's not those people who sell watches in 2013. IWC sold watches to Nazi Germany during WWII. They later sold watches to the Royal Air Force from around 1950. These days, people are not buying Laco B-uhren because they [the buyers] have nazi sympathies. They just happen to acknowledge the visually strong and functional design of those dials and hands which has thus survived the passing of time.
I and millions others happily drive a Volkswagen. It was a car which was initially commissioned by the nazis and actively supported by Adolf Hitler himself. Its name was chosen by the nazis and was closely related to the nazi project, but it is still used today. However, today it's just a good car and we don't connect it or its name with present day fascism. BTW, if I am not wrong, both Rolls Royce, Bentley and Jaguar is all owned by German car companies these days, all of which supplied the German WWI warfare.
Last edited by Leif; 17th September 2013 at 18:52.
Those of you making this argument need to look at the History page of the Gruppo Gamma site:
http://www.gruppogammawatches.com/2/...history/1.html
They are proudly showing photos of Nazi officers and Mussolini. Yes, the original Volkswagen was inspired by Hitler and designed by Porsche, but they don't have pictures of Hitler in their marketing today. Gruppo Gamma have chosen to highlight their Fascist and Nazi heritage. I think it's naive of them rather than evil, but I'm still not going to support it.
And the "history is subjective and written by the winners" argument holds true in some historical contexts, but not with the Nazis and their allies. If you don't understand that, your moral compass needs calibrating.
Last edited by dbt001; 17th September 2013 at 18:09. Reason: Spelling
Not so sure of the provenance here... Take a look at their website. Open up the gallery of the Genesis (G-0) range and take a look at the name on the dial. It isn't Gruppogramma.......
Rob
imho it's all about what you're comfortable with on a personal level....
of course many companies supplied the axis powers during WWII, it's only natural... but another way to look at this is did any of these companies take advantage of forced labour available to them.... and if so what have they done to atone for this since?
combat has always influenced design, you can't escape that
Tbh i think that,if you like the look,these appear to be a bit of a bargain...the brass cased option especially. It's almost worth giving one a whirl to see what turns up. I see that they are based in Singapore apropos of nothing.
I don't think that this thread is one where we need to get into the issues of history-either you like them or you don't. And anyway,the UK has hardly been squeaky clean either.
No, its the same name that is shown on the dial of many 10k plus Panerai watches...
I agree completely that glorifying dictators and war criminals in an ad is very distasteful to say the least. But I thought that you were talking in a broader sense and included, say, Panarai watches as well. If you don't, I believe we actually agree more than you thought in the first place.
Again, I agree - the crimes of the nazi's and their followers can't be defended in any way and they started the war unprovoked, although in the painfully clear light of afterthought some of what the allied did in the heat of the battle has been debated too. I guess that's the ugly nature of war - the steadily increasing singlemindedness, hate and violence.And the "history is subjective and written by the winners" argument holds true in some historical contexts, but not with the Nazis and their allies.
Well, a single post in a watch forum is hardly enough to imply where my moral compass is at. I had preferred you had not done that.If you don't understand that, your moral compass needs calibrating.
Last edited by Leif; 17th September 2013 at 18:52.
The "moral compass" comment was not directed at you, and my apologies if it seemed that it was. And yes, I agree that we are actually agreeing. My primary objection is the use of the pictures of Mussolini and the Kreigsmarine officers.
Apology accepted. Great to see that we agree and both misunderstood each other.
Peace and all the best.
My point entirely. Its irrelevant on the providence of the watch company, they are making a point of linking themselves to the axis powers. Panerai the company that actually made the original watch don't even mention this dark period of their history which speaks volumes. Nor does any other sane minded company for that matter.
If someone wants to wear one of those watches (Aside from the daft name) Good luck to them but its also of relevance that any potential buyer knows that this company post pictures of axis WW2 veterans proudly wearing their watch along with pictures of Mussolini.
Would rather wear a 50 quid Parnis if I wanted a Panerai "homage"
Last edited by robert75; 17th September 2013 at 19:14.
I like the minimalistic look, and the price is attractive. Would like to find out something about water resisting and durability.
As to the political off-topics here above - c'mon, guys, this is all about watches, not about politicians, who all (and we know this) are a$$-h++les. No need to go into it - let me just mention that most of the MOSSAD agents have been equipped with "Heuer" watches and "Waler PP" & "Beretta TomCat" guns, but they did not complain this, obviously, "German Nazy" and "Italian Fascists" products.
Actually it's even worst.
Decima MAS, Gruppo Gamma and the courageous divers of WWII are emblazoned as the best of a golden era by the neo fascism in Italy (quite similar to neonazism it Germany all aspects).
The target market of this company is the many people that revere these groups, vote extreme right and (probably) purchase Mussolini era memorabilia.
I disagree. We talk about much more in this forum than just actual, physical watches and how they're made. We talk about the history of the brand, why we like or dislike a particular brand or piece, who buys them and how they're marketed.
In this thread, some of us are saying we don't like the decision this brand made to show pictures of Nazis and Mussolini on their website. It's an element of the brand that contributes to how people will feel about the watch, and talking about it is similar in a way to the thousands of discussions of "what's the real James Bond watch."
Finally, I doubt I'd characterize Mussolini as just another politician.
Well, you link to a budget watch website and suddenly WWII is in your face
It seems to be OK and casually accepted that the esteemed brand known as Rolex supplied 'both sides' with complete disregard for the events and purpose they were intended for. But as they are loved that would be alright it seems.
Gruppo Gamma are currently, now, today, using pictures of Mussolini and Nazi officers to help sell their watches. Rolex is not. That is the difference.Well, you link to a budget watch website and suddenly WWII is in your face
It seems to be OK and casually accepted that the esteemed brand known as Rolex supplied 'both sides' with complete disregard for the events and purpose they were intended for. But as they are loved that would be alright it seems.
The UK ministry of defence was at the time not amused about the ´Kampfschwimmer´ watches though and preferred to spend a small fortune to have a batch of ´silver Longines´ watches specially made for the charriot riders instead of simply ordering from London based Rolex.Well, you link to a budget watch website and suddenly WWII is in your face
It seems to be OK and casually accepted that the esteemed brand known as Rolex supplied 'both sides' with complete disregard for the events and purpose they were intended for. But as they are loved that would be alright it seems.
As you observe it is not an issue now as brand enthusiasts see fit which makes the scolding of the topic brand hypocritical imo.
Not that I cannot relate to the emotion because I can and that makes me rather critical about the history marketing of several Swiss watch brands. It jars me just as much to judge according to two different sets of rules.
It is one reason why I have a soft spot for soviet era watches.
Oh, I see, so if you keep quiet about your questionable past that makes it OK does it?
It has already been said, both the UK and US have inglorious pasts, regardless we both lock it away when it suits us.
it's a bit of conundrum if you remove the morals isn't it?
the axis powers (perhaps even before the war) want to make your company an official supplier of products, you make a good product, it does a good job, you're proud and why wouldn't you want to be proud
but add hindsight and the morality back in (as you should) and who in their right mind would want to be associated with a product proudly making an association with an era that reflects some of the darkest moments in modern (nee human) history
the past is the past.... I.A. Topf and Sons might make great ovens & perhaps it would be a great appliance for my kitchen, but the moment they start marketing who they made ovens for in the 1940s I really wouldn't be interested!!
making watches isn't the same as sinking ships
making watches for the people who sink ships isn't the same as sinking ships (those ships would still be sunk, the divers would be wearing a different watch is all)
BRAGGING that you made the watches that people wore when they were sinking ships is bad
see the difference?
I'm starting to bore even myself so I think I'll call it a day for this topic. Yes, the US, UK, Switzerland and countless other countries have done very bad things. Yes, I drive a VW and wear a Rolex and neither company is beyond reproach. We all make relative choices every day in our lives.
Regardless, I think it's morally wrong to use Nazi and Fascist imagery to market a watch, and I wouldn't support a company that does so.
Don't waste your time with this fanboy, nothing you can say will alter his perception.
Just to be clear, are you saying I'm a fanboy?
No, the OP is the fanboy.
In this case it is not this which is the issue but the side who did the sinking is.
THAT is subjective and in this case from the winner's pov.
As I observed it is all rather arbitrary as enthusiast see fit. See the ' Fliegeruhr' popularity.
Personally I have a bee in my bonnet about the Rolex 'Kampfschwimmer' watches as it was literally instrumental in causing the Dutch ' hongerwinter'. It still is only an instrument though and the UK's role in today's Sirian debacle illustrates the reality of that. The issue I have is with Rolex hypocrisy about supplying them to the SS. Again ditto the US/UK/France positions concerning Siria.
In war, politics and doing busines, morality seems a synomym for hypocrisy.
It is not only part of why I like soviet era watches I also have had and still have a lot of fun with the F91-W relativating the issue.
I agree with some points made on both sides of this discussion. In fact the only point made so far which I find rather extreme is the assertion that - "The target market of this company is the many people that revere these groups, vote extreme right and (probably) purchase Mussolini era memorabilia." I would guess the target market are actually people who find this particular watch style attractive, cannot afford a Panerai (or choose not to spend thousands on one), and like to wear something loosely based on a historical design.
What I'm interested to hear though is how the views expressed in this thread translate to other watch brands. As some of you will know I'm a big fan of Stowa watches, mainly due to their high quality, value for money and the company's exceptional customer service. It should be noted however that Stowa pride themselves on being one of the original five suppliers of watches for the Luftwaffe during WW2. Now, I know they don't use photos of Adolf Hitler on their website, but does their historic association with pilots who bombed our cities and shot down our airmen put people off buying their watches? Please note, I'm not saying it should or shouldn't, I'm merely curious.
I suspect, although I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong, that the OP had no hidden agenda, but simply thought he would share news of a new, low-priced watch with a group of watch enthusiasts. He probably never expected or intended it to cause such controversy.
Despite the quite sensitive issue the various contributers are exemplary in trying to rationally argument their opinon.
If you differ in opinion then by all means make a reasoned argument instead of venting name calling as fact. Again.
I think you you will find that it is a fact, and another fact is that no matter what anyone else says, his pov will not change. Further more, there's no name calling, simply facts and if you stuck to facts rather than fiction you would get on a lot better.
How can you possibly state something like that as a fact, unless of course you can read the OP's mind?!
- - - Updated - - -
One of the most perceptive posts in this thread.
Last edited by Ian_O; 17th September 2013 at 22:02. Reason: Re-worded
How is it that I get the feeling you have been on this forum before, albeit in a different guise.
Anyone, or in one case, any knob who seeks to distort or make invalid suggestions needs to read my original post again.
I was promoting nothing, am not a fanboy of 'Gruppo Gamma' as one idiot suggests and if a general HU stirs up a shit storm such as this has turned into, I'll not bother again.
No, you're completely wrong there I'm afraid.
I didn't expect any other answer, but time will tell.
Excellent! I'm really quite excited now to hear what time will tell you about me. Do please let me know when you find out.
I was interested, and enjoying the healthy discussion in this thread ... until now. What a pity that some people cannot simply accept others may have an opinion which differs from theirs.
you'll have to enlighten me on this one... I know that 'hongerwinter' was a famine caused by the restriction of food into Dutch areas by the Nazis, but how does the fact that the SS were wearing Rolex derived watches make this Rolex's fault?
It's a good job no-one has mentioned James Bond "licensed to kill" marketing yet.
He is of course a fictional character, (until the "what watch would he wear" topic crops up again and again).
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