Rolex casback mystery engraving

[dickbrowne]

I raised this a short while back, but didn't have any pictures to illustrate my question.

This afternoon I split the bracelet onmy 5513 so I could take the caseback off to replace the seal (as I have no idea when it was last done), and whilst it was apart, I took advantage of it's predicament to grab a couple of snaps of the engraving



You can clearly see the numbers - 12676, but I have no idea what they mean - some have suggested that it's a service mark, but they tend to be scratched inside the case, it's nothing to do with the serial or case number, so I'm a little stumped.

Whilst I'm here, and as I can't resist it, here's the other side :)



I do love this watch - the matte dial is fantastic, as is the curve of the domed crystal



Anyway, back to the question - does anybody have any insight or thoughts as to the relevance of these numbers? It could be (and this is the most likely explanation) that it's nothing more than a number relevant to the original owner

Cheers

Richard

[drmarkf]

Well, I've just bought my cousin's 5513 (which is on a quick perusal identical, but has a lower crystal, probably a replacement), so I share your love... but the number's a bit of a mystery.

Some Google-ish fun reveals a load of ideas (and, in the way of 6 degrees of separation, I have travelled on Indian train 12676 from Chennai to Coimbatore, and I have published in the Journal of Clinical Microbiology (REF: the first 2):

http://indiarailinfo.com/train/kovai...-mas/955/41/35
http://www.jcm.riken.jp/cgi-bin/jcm/...mber?JCM=12676

http://www.numberempire.com/12676
http://robertson-ancestry.com/data/12676.pdf
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/12...20469292_zpid/
http://law.onecle.com/california/health/12676.html
http://www.sothebysrealty.com/eng/sa...n-bay-wi-54210
http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summ....cgi?cid=12676
http://www.ptglab.com/Products/ARL6-...12676-1-AP.htm
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...le=12676-12682
http://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDeta...00000030080544
http://www.slideshare.net/Emildnyust...h-12676-jisu02
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Executive_Order_12676
etc etc

Hours of harmless fun, but very few of them seem likely links!

[PJ S]

Is that how the caseback on those Rolexes are - plain and devoid of anything identifying it as a Rolex?
If so, and it's not a 3rd party blank that's been stamped, could it be an AD's stamp, which they did so they'd know if it came back for warranty work or anything, that it was one they sold?
Similarly a "pawn shop", to again identify it as being one of theirs?

[gray]

12th June 1976?

[JasonM]

I know rental shops mark their 'kit' sometimes, especially dive shops with computers etc , cant see that a 5513 would be part of that system though.. Its a serial number of some kind though but in what context I dont suppose we will ever know for sure...

[RobDad]

Is that how the caseback on those Rolexes are - plain and devoid of anything identifying it as a Rolex?
If so, and it's not a 3rd party blank that's been stamped, could it be an AD's stamp, which they did so they'd know if it came back for warranty work or anything, that it was one they sold?
Similarly a "pawn shop", to again identify it as being one of theirs?

Apart from the Seadweller they're all like that. Struck me as odd the first time I saw one too!

[Carlton-Browne]

I'd be looking at the formats of military service numbers in various countries. I can therefore confirm that it isn't British Army, either officers or other ranks.

The date possibility also sounds plausible.

[Michael E]

I think I saw this watch around 8 months ago or a watch with very similar numbers, I did some research and came up with nothing, I nearly bought it myself but was skint at the time.
I would be interested to hear peoples thoughts on this. I think the date idea someone had above sounds plausible.
Lovely watch BTW.
Cheers Mick

[Steve748]

My thoughts were that it is the date but usually the date has slightly bigger spaces like 12 6 76 but why wouldn't they put it it as 12 6 1976 or 12 6 '76?

It looks to me it could have been done by a trophy shop with a pantagraph type engraver. He didn't want to or was unable to split the bracelet to do it in the middle of the caseback

[dickbrowne]

I think the date theory is sound, as is the serial number - maybe an organisation with a need for reliable watches for a workforce with a central pool of watches perhaps... I guess we'll never really know, but it's fun to speculate

Oh, and Mick, this may have been the one you saw, I bought it from a dealer in Bradford and that was about four or so months back

[drmarkf]

My thoughts were that it is the date but usually the date has slightly bigger spaces like 12 6 76 but why wouldn't they put it it as 12 6 1976 or 12 6 '76?

Yes, or even 12/06/76, 12.06.76 (etc) or 120676 would seem to be more likely if one's wanting to mark a really significant date.

BTW when I retired from half my job at the end of March this year I almost bought myself a Stowa with the rotor engraved 31313 - but that was because that date-number's a palindrome, and that had a sort of attraction.
In the end I got myself a 1981 16750 GMT, which was the year I began the work I retired from.

[watchlovr]

Can you post a good quality photo of the caseback square on?
There is a way of id'ing if Rolex made these marks, which I doubt, hoever they do look pretty professionally done.

Colin.

[MerlinShepherd]

All adds to the mystery! I have to admit that I quite like it....

[Cirrus]

As a keen reader of thriller novels I would like to think that the number is the access code for a Swiss bank account in which the original owner salted away millions of Francs...

[bobdog]

As a keen reader of thriller novels I would like to think that the number is the access code for a Swiss bank account in which the original owner salted away millions of Francs...

Swiss bank account codes are all alpha/numeric, at least mine are, so it wouldnt be that. My guess is it was the previous owners wife's birthday, we are all crap at remembering those 'important' dates!

[PJ S]

But what if the owner never takes off his watch or forgets to look at the back of it?
No steak and __ that year again!

[GTuned]

This may sound obvious, but has anyone just asked Rolex HQ - not just an AD Salesperson? These days phone calls are cheap ;)

[swatch]

12th June 1976?

It could also be 26th Jan 1976 if it is a date, in US format.

[kdes24uk]

Stock or prop number for a film company ?

[Mr.D]

Stock or prop number for a film company ?

Doubt it . Prop companies never keep really expensive items like this , they would source it as production required and they would never damage it by engraving a reference number on it.

I can't see anyone engraving the back of a rolex with some ref number generally.

[GraniteQuarry]

I'd wager it's a date of birth or event.

[JasonM]

Doubt it . Prop companies never keep really expensive items like this , they would source it as production required and they would never damage it by engraving a reference number on it.

I can't see anyone engraving the back of a rolex with some ref number generally.

Maybe not nowadays, but back when the 5513 was new, Rolex wasn't the prestige brand it is now, I hate to use the expression, but Subs etc were more tool / utilitarian watches that didn't command the premiums you have today, don't forget you could buy decommissioned MilSubs for a few hundred quid in the early 80s.....

[Neil.C]

Just a shot in the dark but Cartier always number their stuff...and Cartier sold Rolexes.

[newsboy]

Looks like the case was engraved with a significant date in the previous owners life.

[Steve748]

12.6 76 is a Saturday, maybe it was a wedding present?

[GTuned]

I'd wager it's not a date :)

Dates are usually in a dd/mm/yy double digit format (US vs rest of the world, interchange the dd with the mm) which would have a 6 appearing as a 06.. engraving an extra number is no big deal.. Date engravings are usually symmetric to please the eye with 6 or 8 numbers. Also dates are usually displayed with a . or a / as a separator, e.g. 12.06.76 or 12/06/76 etc.. Most engravings would also have included a message of some sort in addition perhaps..

The only very slight possibility that it's a date is that they used a dddyy format, but that would be odd in my opinion.. 126 would be the 126th day of 1976..

I believe the number is an external, easy to read, serial number/reference number so that the watch doesn't have to be taken apart to tell whom it belongs to, which stock part it is.

[markrlondon]

Is there the remains of some almost polished-out engraving on there (above the number)? I think I can see the remains of some more verbose text there. It could be that there was some shallower engraving once upon a time.

I have an old Seiko like this. The back appears almost mirror smooth at first glance but if you get the light just right you can see that the entire set of caseback engraving has simply been polished out over the years of wearing and cleaning. The serial number, however, which was more deeply engraved, is still visible.

[dickbrowne]

It's a real mystery that's for sure...

Contacting Rolex never occurred to me, I will give it a go when I get home from holiday

There is no internal engraving matching the numbers, just the normal service marks

I like the wedding date, but would expect to see more words - mrs b and I have the date of our wedding engraved on the inside of our wedding rings, but even in there we found room for a name also.

As for the extra verbiage, I will check again with a x15 loupe - I've taken a close look but can always look closer

Thanks for the suggestions so far chaps

Richard

[GTuned]

Contacting Rolex never occurred to me, I will give it a go when I get home from holiday
Richard

Glad to be of assistance :) Do let us know what they say!

[Quackers]

Rolex may be willing to put you in touch with the first owner and you could then ask him if he did it.

[Steve748]

Unlikely as they will quote 'data protection' and all that bollocks so it is highly unlikely they will tell you previous owners.

[Kingstepper]

I'd wager it's not a date :)

Dates are usually in a dd/mm/yy double digit format (US vs rest of the world, interchange the dd with the mm) which would have a 6 appearing as a 06.. engraving an extra number is no big deal.. Date engravings are usually symmetric to please the eye with 6 or 8 numbers. Also dates are usually displayed with a . or a / as a separator, e.g. 12.06.76 or 12/06/76 etc.. Most engravings would also have included a message of some sort in addition perhaps..

The only very slight possibility that it's a date is that they used a dddyy format, but that would be odd in my opinion.. 126 would be the 126th day of 1976..

I believe the number is an external, easy to read, serial number/reference number so that the watch doesn't have to be taken apart to tell whom it belongs to, which stock part it is.

Agree it's unlikely to be a date which would normally have 6 digits and a separator of some sort.

Engraving does look professionally done.

[markrlondon]

As for the extra verbiage, I will check again with a x15 loupe - I've taken a close look but can always look closer

I've taken a closer look using the picture above but I'm fighting against resolution and JPEG artefacts. Nevertheless, I'm fairly certain that there is in fact almost rubbed out text or numbers there, possibly including a "57" at the end of a line.

A loupe will definitely help but the angle of the light definitely needs to be just right since you're trying to illuminate what are now the shallowest of indentations.

The pic below shows where I think there is evidence of engraving (black outline). The red outline shows where I think the "57" or perhaps "67" appears at or near the end of a line.

Original size:


Enlarged:

[kdes24uk]

You need to take a picture with light comming from the side.
ensure no reflections on the caseback or hold a piece of plain card (try
different colours) so the reflection is even.
Take a number of pictures at different angles
load then into photoshop or similar and try increasing the contrast to maximum and see if anything new shows. You could also convert the image to black and white first.

Kev

[markrlondon]

load then into photoshop or similar and try increasing the contrast to maximum and see if anything new shows. You could also convert the image to black and white first.

Additionally I find that 'edge detect', 'emboss', 'outline' or 'relief' tools can help highlight hard to see features. However, one needs as high resolution as possible with as low compression as possible (preferably raw image data) to ensure that one is not enhancing JPEG compression artefects.

[Mr.D]

Additionally I find that 'edge detect', 'emboss', 'outline' or 'relief' tools can help highlight hard to see features. However, one needs as high resolution as possible with as low compression as possible (preferably raw image data) to ensure that one is not enhancing JPEG compression artefects.

I actually do this for a living (sort of) ; all about signal to noise ratios. I'm not convinced I'm seeing any signs of any other older engraving on the caseback though.

[markrlondon]

I'm not convinced I'm seeing any signs of any other older engraving on the caseback though.

I agree that it's just not possible to say for sure with the case back picture available here. Despite saying that I am "fairly certain that there is in fact almost rubbed out text or numbers there" I nevertheless cannot say I am "convinced" (i.e. absolutely certain) about it. It could just be patterns that trigger the brain's "that's a letter/number" response.

Having said that, have a look at my enlarged copy (it helps to enlarge it further, about 300% enlargement is good), especially in the red outline, and I think it's difficult to conclude that there are not some real characters there. They don't look like compression artefacts. They could be random scratches but it seems unlikely.

Here's the red box area further enlarged. It's blurry due to the interpolation needed to enlarge it but it does seem convincing to me.


To be sure, though, it needs a higher resolution, low compression, better lit picture to be be certain...

[GTuned]

Electronic Microscope? :) If you're in London, I'd be happy to try to scan it, otherwise, if you like gadgets, you can pick them up quite cheap on the 'net.

Another idea, is take something like a whiteboard marker or something slightly more "temporarily permanent" (I'm sure there's a better description out there :) and run it gently on the engraving. Should help with scanning/photographing as the ink may go into the very shallow grooves..

Out of curiosity, I just scanned the back of the case of the nearest available watch, my Steinhart Ocean Black DLC.. the text below is normally about 1mm high.. :D

Click for scan: microscope.jpg

[PCthug]

You could also try a flatbed scanner.
Set it to its highest resolution, lay the watch on it and scan it.

I have just had a go with mine, and noticed some numbers I have never seen before and I don't know what they mean (glad I tried this though)...

[Steve748]

It could also be 26th Jan 1976 if it is a date, in US format.

Or the 6th December '76

[Mr.D]

Maybe not nowadays, but back when the 5513 was new, Rolex wasn't the prestige brand it is now, I hate to use the expression, but Subs etc were more tool / utilitarian watches that didn't command the premiums you have today, don't forget you could buy decommissioned MilSubs for a few hundred quid in the early 80s.....

Trust me most prop places consider £20 for an item a lot of money let alone £100s.

[P9CLY]

I think the date theory is sound, as is the serial number - maybe an organisation with a need for reliable watches for a workforce with a central pool of watches perhaps... I guess we'll never really know, but it's fun to speculate

Oh, and Mick, this may have been the one you saw, I bought it from a dealer in Bradford and that was about four or so months back

Maybe its like the Number on a racing Pidgeons leg,and like a Pidgeon its arrived back home to Bradford.

[Hooshabak]

[QUOTE=P9CLY;5516021]Maybe its like the Number on a racing Pidgeons leg,and like a Pidgeon its arrived back home to Bradford.

Is that similar to a racing pigeon?

[P9CLY]

[QUOTE=Hooshabak;5516299]

Maybe its like the Number on a racing Pidgeons leg,and like a Pidgeon its arrived back home to Bradford.

Is that similar to a racing pigeon?

Hi ges itt mite bee,but you were fast to see I meant Pigeon.....Gold star to you.

100 lines to me " I must check my spelling before it niggles someone on tz".

[Kingstepper]

[QUOTE=Hooshabak;5516299]

Maybe its like the Number on a racing Pidgeons leg,and like a Pidgeon its arrived back home to Bradford.

Is that similar to a racing pigeon?

Maybe in pidgin English.

[P9CLY]

Anyway spelling lessons over.

Ive done some research on the numbers on the case back.I called the makers of the Bond movies,and it seems it was one of the watches used by the stuntmen on set.....cool.
It went missing soon after filming ended but nothing was said because they thought Q had kept it to modify for the next bond movie,but Omega then came onto the scene and it was forgotten.

So its a very rare watch it seems.........

[Hasan]

Anyway spelling lessons over.

Ive done some research on the numbers on the case back.I called the makers of the Bond movies,and it seems it was one of the watches used by the stuntmen on set.....cool.
It went missing soon after filming ended but nothing was said because they thought Q had kept it to modify for the next bond movie,but Omega then came onto the scene and it was forgotten.

So its a very rare watch it seems.........

Are you pulling our leg? :-)

That is an amazing back story to the watch if it's true.

[Kingstepper]

And probably stolen.

[sickie]

Not if it's not reported

And probably stolen.

Sent from my SM-N960F using TZ-UK mobile app

[Kingstepper]

Not if it's not reported

Sent from my SM-N960F using TZ-UK mobile app

Something can be stolen and not reported.

Is a crime only committed when it is reported?