Reply With Quoteouch!
Originally Posted by PhiloStan
too late - it's in the public domain now :)
Would be very interesting to see one made up along those lines though.
z
ouch!
Since the thread has been resuscitated, here's a recent picture of my darth tuna ceramic shroud after 1.5 years of wear (and being dropped 3 times):
I believe the shroud is made (or at least designed by Kyocera).
Last edited by lenny; 28th June 2013 at 00:24.
I agree - when alluminium started replacing steel for motorbikes it was recognised as having half the weight but also half the strength however it allowed things such as massivley oversized spindles (vs steel) that provided more structural strength in the planes the forces were exerted in for the same weight, but if they had merely replicated the steel spindle in alluminium the spindle would have bent on first outing.
Whilst having nothing against ceramic watches , I cant believe anyone who actually dives would slightly consider a ceramic dive watch. If your ever going to bash your watch its when diving , getting equipment on, being next to other people getting equipment on. getting back in the boat being under water lots of hazards. and if it snaps in water it sinks !!!
How have you managed to drop a watch 3 times on NATO ??!!Since the thread has been resuscitated, here's a recent picture of my darth tuna ceramic shroud after 1.5 years of wear (and being dropped 3 times):
I believe the shroud is made (or at least designed by Kyocera).
That looks properly fookedSince the thread has been resuscitated, here's a recent picture of my darth tuna ceramic shroud after 1.5 years of wear (and being dropped 3 times):
When it was off the NATO.
It's been known to happen :)
I have recently chipped my PAM 505 Black Seal Composite, it has a number of small knicks on it....and some denting of the (aluminium) case underneath. Took it to Panerai to get fixed and similar experience with ceramic case cost, it WAS RIDICULOUSLY EXPENSIVE!!! HKD 40k (USD5700) for the case replacement!)!!!http://forum.tz-uk.com/images/smilies/mrgreen.png
This composite case has been the LEAST durable material to have on a sports watch! IF U DESIRE DURABILITY GO GET A STEEL WATCH, it can be polished easily. Ceramic and composite need total replacement.
My PAM505 was purchased Dec 2012. One year later valued at 60% of purchase price for trade-in (without knicks and dents), now its worth about 800USD if i replaced the case (due to its high cost). In other words, the THING IS WORTH NEXT TO NOTHING!
Go buy a Rolex or PP for value, you will always get within 10-15% of purchase price for it, even a decade late (actually, some go up in value!).
PANERAI's just go down in value!
I think their pricing strategy will bite the owners/customers on the bum....too many out there, and they just don't keep their value....despite high demand.
I love Panerai, but too scared to buy another one! (although i would love to get a PAM0275, prices for 2nd hand actually pretty good for that movement/complication!)....but how much will it lose over time???
If you love it, who cares, right???
Has anyone seen any pics of a ceramic Sub or GMT bezel splitting or cracking?
Interesting thread and certainly off putting to a degree!
Cant say I worry about my Ceramic bezels too much since Rolex will be knocking them out for decades to come however I must admit I WOULD be worried if I had a ceramic cased ltd edition IWC or Panerai which is no longer made. In 10 years down the line if it broke etc I would imagine they would not have a case to replace it with.
I mean most Panerai ltd editions are made in small quantities and sell out pretty much at the pre-order stage hence in 10 years time would they have the case replacement or willing to make one?
Thank you for the good laugh.......!
Because they can. ;)
Hi kultschar
I have heard on the grapevine that a replacement bezel for a Rolex is up in (£) four figures which would encourage me to go for the pre ceramic models. I just do not know how tough a ceramic bezel is and would it stand, say, a 4ft drop onto a concrete or tiled floor.
This thread is going to cause a few headaches.
Regards
Mick
I understand that you are American and I hope it was a joke, 75 mm is more than 3 inches. The watch is 44mm which converts to 1.73 inches....not that big for the queen of complications: the minute repeater
I disagree. Panerais hold their value very well, but as you say, ceramic ones takes a hit. But some limited editions, or discontinued ones or BASE models hold their value very well.I have recently chipped my PAM 505 Black Seal Composite, it has a number of small knicks on it....and some denting of the (aluminium) case underneath. Took it to Panerai to get fixed and similar experience with ceramic case cost, it WAS RIDICULOUSLY EXPENSIVE!!! HKD 40k (USD5700) for the case replacement!)!!!
This composite case has been the LEAST durable material to have on a sports watch! IF U DESIRE DURABILITY GO GET A STEEL WATCH, it can be polished easily. Ceramic and composite need total replacement.
My PAM505 was purchased Dec 2012. One year later valued at 60% of purchase price for trade-in (without knicks and dents), now its worth about 800USD if i replaced the case (due to its high cost). In other words, the THING IS WORTH NEXT TO NOTHING!
Go buy a Rolex or PP for value, you will always get within 10-15% of purchase price for it, even a decade late (actually, some go up in value!).
PANERAI's just go down in value!
I think their pricing strategy will bite the owners/customers on the bum....too many out there, and they just don't keep their value....despite high demand.
I love Panerai, but too scared to buy another one! (although i would love to get a PAM0275, prices for 2nd hand actually pretty good for that movement/complication!)....but how much will it lose over time???
If you love it, who cares, right???
But ofcourse Rolex is the king when it comes to residuals....I only buy Rolex, Panerai or Pateks at this moment....
744ER is a watch repairer so I think he's likely to have grounds for maligning IWC.
As for the ceramic watch dilemma, I wouldn't spend a lot on one. My missus has a couple of Armani ceramics, not my choice but she likes 'em.
Not sure how to refinish the bezel on the latest Seamaster Pro and Planet Ocean. I guess the bezel insert can be popped out, but it's a brave man who'll do this. On the old models, I take the insert out every time I refinish one and it's an easy task. Wouldn`t fancy cracking the latest type and having to stump up for a replacement!
Paul
Now this is wabi! :D
The original IWC 3705 Fliegerchronograph was machined from a block of ceramic and it was so difficult to machine it was reported that IWC actually lost money on them. I suspect that modern ceramic cases are cast in their final shape and fired.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
True, it was actually made by a Dutch CompanyI believe.
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
You must be a real watch lover, and one not spoilt by choice...............
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Yes. I've seen a few broken ones on TRF.
Hyperbole my friend! Also, if PP can stick a minute repeater in a 33.7mm case I don't think that's a good excuse for the IWC to be so large.
Last edited by JP Chestnut; 28th February 2014 at 19:10.
Someone digging up an old thread and posting for first time to slag a brand = TROLL
Sounds more like someone who has had a (not uncommon) experience with Panerai ownership but time will tell.
Crickey....enough to put anyone off a ceramic for life
Interesting thread, I recently bought this NOS 1969 Omega Skywlker, no ceramic but a tungsten bombarded vickers 1200 steel case, when I got it it had a tiny chip bottom right edge and top left edge, both less than the size of a pin head but probably from when it was miss handled in the shop or knocked hence it never sold as new!
On my previous skywalker it rolled literally out of the watch box on to a vintage glass haberdashery cabinet and chipped the case at 6 oclock and a 2mm chunk chipped and fell off the tungsten! that wasnt a good day! the vickers (like ceramic) is extremely scratch resistant but very brittle like ceramic cases but on these is compounded because it is a coating
CheersTom
Last edited by dickstar1977; 1st March 2014 at 11:10.
Nice collection. Yeah, some of the limited editions hold (slightly) and some discontinued get close to their original price. But very very few go up in value (unlike some PP's and Rolex).
And the composite watches are rubbish. At least a chip on the ceramic will show same colour underneath. The composite shows the aluminium case which totally ruins the watch. And i don't treat my watch rough. Small knicks on the bezel totally distract you from looking at the watch (due to matte finish on the case). I would not buy a composite again, despite its nice colour. Just not worth it over time. Way too expensive to replace!
Saving for a PP Aquanut TT....bad boy.
Ceramic Omega Speedmaster...
However it's made, the Dark Side of the Moon (stupid naming the watch after a Transformers film!) :) can shatter in exactly the same way - in similar circumstances.
... you may be surprised that - as with other things in life - "small" is not always the most desirable configuration ;-) ... Ever wondered why it ain't over until the "fat lady" sings? So, not surprisingly, volume does help when making sounds.
It also helps to know at least a little bit about the history of certain watches before arriving at somewhat judgmental statements. As you may have heard (or not), a key feature of the Portuguese watch DNA is the (big) size, as the original design stems from 1930ies/40ies watches using converted pocket watch calibers, Cal. 74 and Cal. 98 that is. As these movements have a diameter of more than 37mm, it needs a least a 42-43mm case to house them.
This still holds true with the minute repeater, which originally used a Cal. 952 as base movement. So, it is a key characteristic of this watch, no excuses needed - and it has nothing to do with the repeater mechanism. BTW. the hardest part with repeaters is the tuning rather than the construction, and this is an true art no matter how big or small a case is or what material it is made of - or for which brand it is produced (actually, quite a few repeaters from different brands share the same design team).
I am not afraid to say that I really love this watch ;-)
BTT: Ceramic cases have certainly some disadvantges but if you want to buy a black watch they are most likely the best option - even the most advanced coating wears off or is prone to scratches and talking about shocking prices better don't scratch your carbon fibre watch... Furthermore, the incidents with destroyed ceramic cases are rather rare and I am not so sure about the "just a gentle knock on the bar" stories, as ususally the owners hope for some goodwill in the case replacement process and that is to happen more likely the smaller the own role in the destruction has been. And two more points: case replacements are always extremely expensive - from what I know, a steel case replacement by Panerai is not significantly less than the prices quoted here for a ceramic case. And, second, if a steel watch falls to the ground in a bad angle it can also deformate a lug or an entire case beyond repair.
A little anecdote that Lothar Schmidt (the current owner of Sinn) likes to tell from his time at being head of production at IWC: When he suggested for the first time to use ceramic as case material for a production watch, the late Günter Blümlein (CEO of IWC at that time) was as wary as many are here. To get the go-ahead, he required a personal "test" - Blümlein smashed a prototype case down the stairs in the IWC entrance hall. To his surprise, it survived and the first model (the black Da Vinci) went into production.
And as someone mentioned the original material and producers: it was actually an invention by researchers from the Max-Planck-Institute in Stuttgart and the actual production was done by Metoxit AG in Thayngen, right next to Schaffhausen. At that time isostatic pressing and sintering was used. This results in a superior robustness but requires very expensive finishing processes. Currently, IWC and most others use CIM (ceramic injection moulding) processes which is more efficient and allows for larger production numbers - at least for IWC this is indeed done by a Dutch firm, Formatec from Tilburg. This switch happened some time during the "Top Gun"-Area, the initial 44mm limited ceramic Doppelchrono was the last one to be produced in the pressing/sintering way if I remember correctly.
For those interested in some more details, there is nice a overview article by Alexander Linz (watch-insider.com):
http://www.iwc.com/en/experiences/ch...india-charlie/
Cheers,
Christian
+1. This should be exactly the way to go.
The major Japanese brands have cottoned on, i.e. Seiko Dia-Shield and Citizen Duratect, plus Sinn with its tegimented models, Bremont and Damasko. If British, German and Japanese brands have hardened watch cases, why haven't the Swiss bothered? Let's hope that Omega's hard Ti is the start of better watch cases from the Swiss.
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