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Thread: Porsche 911 - air cooled 993 model.

  1. #1

    Porsche 911 - air cooled 993 model.

    Anyone on here got one?
    Would love to see some pics and opinion.....

  2. #2
    Master
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    Have polished and been in lots. What are you looking for? buying advice, driving experience or general letching? If letching, allow me to present:

    the 993 RS and..



    the 993 turbo S



    Happy to help answer specifics if needed, I'm sure some owners will be along in a minute..

  3. #3
    The last of the aircooled 911s and many will argue the best 911. As a Porsche aficionado once said to me 'the last Porsche hand carved out of stone - before they became a volume manufacturer'

    Highly regarded by owners.

    Buy wisely - you can easily spend 5 figures putting a ropey one right. Not without their problems but great car. Still give you some of the feedback of the earlier Porsches - some.

    If you have any specific questions happy to try and help or point you to a resource or somebody more knowledgeable.

    I've run one for the last 5 years. I budget about £2k a year to keep it in good mechanical order and I only do about 5000 miles a year.

    Anyway here's mine - 1993 (one of the first few thousand built) Carrera 2, uprated and lowered suspension, turbo style wheels and I've put a turbo front bumper on it.



    Last edited by Bootsy; 21st May 2013 at 16:52.

  4. #4
    Master
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    Nice car. Had a last-of-the-line W-chassis ('97 R and '98 S-plate) 993. But one of the most overhyped/overpriced 911s ever. Unlike most car generations, build quality of the late models was inferior to the earlier years as Porsche were seriously cash strapped, and they made certain engineering compromises in the engine department. I think the 964 is a sweeter aircooled to drive casually, and it sounds miles better too.

  5. #5
    If we're talking about the sweetest 911 to drive go pre 73

  6. #6
    Master
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    The older 911s are just old vintage cars: yes, you get a very intimate level of feedback, but they are woeful under braking. The 3.2 was ok. There are two sweetspots in 911 driving dynamics: the 6.1GT3 for clarity and pure precision; and then for all round road use, the 997 is a terrific blend of performance, comfort, and tactility for the road. The 991 is a departure from how the 911 generally felt for the previous almost 50 years.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bootsy View Post
    If we're talking about the sweetest 911 to drive go pre 73
    If we're talking the perfect 911, isn't it Chris Harris' one?:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2HjaHS51hk

    Or better still, if money is no object, a Singer911:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD0KSsXWRi8
    Last edited by bulletmagnet; 21st May 2013 at 18:03.

  8. #8
    this IS the best of both worlds you would be hard pushed to better IMHO

    http://www.petrolicious.com/one-car-...ck-olsen-s-911

  9. #9
    I had one for 9 years and reluctantly sold it in 2011. It was by far the best car I have owned and every journey was an event.

    Running costs were not an issue for me, an average of around £1,000 pa excluding tyres, averaging 7,000 miles pa. It helps being close to a good independent and my car was maintained by JZ Machtech.

    Depreciation was also excellent, bought for £32k at 24,000 miles and sold for £17,500 at 85,000, 9 years later averaging £1,600 pa. They have now bottomed out and if anything I reckon they are an excellent investment akin to a Sea Dweller. When I sold the car it needed about £4k of work (there can be some big bills!) and the new owner bought fully aware as to what needed doing.

    If you have the means and the opportunity do not turn down the chance to own what is arguably one of the best 911's every made.

  10. #10
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    Yeah I'd seen that Jack Olsen car before, it's very nice and I like the detachable aero parts, but he has only really cherry picked bits from the 70's to make his 911.

    That Chris Harris car has had a complete strip down and structural rebuild with extra stiffening added (they reckon it's stiffer than a modern 997) and then modern day rally spec' suspension added. The engine is a 3.4 tuned to about 320+hp and has less than 1000kg to push around. There are loads of custom made tweaks. He hasn't been afraid to use ultra modern performance parts whilst still keeping it looking 70's. I luv it :)

    Anyway, I have now completely hijacked this thread and will now butt out! :)

  11. #11
    I love the air cooled 911s but have never quite managed to buy one for one reason or another. I looked at a 993 Turbo a few years back, I met the seller at an official Porsche centre to have it inspected. The inspection came back with a list of around £3k to bring it up to scratch so I walked away but the next guy who saw it bought it. Fast forward a few years and the same car is back on the market for about the same money...........but it had just had a £25k engine rebuild after it went bang. Ouch!!

  12. #12
    Still prefer a pure pre 73 set up well possibly with later brakes on it.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Taff View Post
    993 RS..


    A friend of mine has one of these, a rare beast indeed and probably the least user friendly car I've ever driven. On the track, it's probably wonderful to drive, but on the road it tries to kill you at every opportunity. Very noisy, very quick, and fun if you're in the mood, but if all you want to do is go to the shop for a pint of milk TBH it's a real ball-ache..

    Cheers,

    Plug

  14. #14
    The 993 Turbo S is my dream car. It is the pinnacle for me, ticks every single box.

    Realising I won't be able to fulfil the dream, I downgraded the dream to 'just' the Turbo. Though having seen these rocket in value over the past few years means I'm almost having to downgrade to the Carrera 4S!! I think I'm a few years away from it..... grrr.

    Oh, and as the OP requested pics, here we go with some more...









    To owners, past and present, of either the 993 Turbo or 993 C4S - would you recommend them as a realistic daily driver? That is my only reservation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bootsy View Post
    Buy wisely - you can easily spend 5 figures putting a ropey one right. Not without their problems but great car.
    Gulp. What are the common problems? Perhaps this is one reason NOT to go for a Turbo - which is typically an expensive aspect.
    Last edited by cman; 21st May 2013 at 19:13.

  15. #15
    I have a 993. I bought a 1996 Polar silver C2 varioram a few months back.
    It's my first Porsche and it's been a revelation to me-I love it.
    Compared to a modern car it feels dated and heavy in slow traffic-
    but with an open road ahead and your foot down it's just fantastic.
    I just wondered if any of the folks on here also had a 993 and what they thought-hence the op.
    This is mine:

  16. #16
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    I've got a 993 Carrera 4, 1995 ex-dealer car that was loaded up with options (£8k worth of leather alone). I've had several other sports cars, but the 993's a keeper. Had it 6 years now and loving it.

    I've done several mods to it including, M033 lowered suspension, RS strut brace front and rear, RS engine mounts, RS airbox + filter, RS lightweight flywheel and clutch, brake upgrade, xenon headlamps, rolling road remap... Plus a Becker stereo and JL Audio speaker set....

    Looks like a standard Carrera 4 except a bit lower... But shoots off the line, and has excellent pickup thanks to the map and flywheel....

    Mechanically I've kept it 100% tiptop with all work done by Ray Northway or Camtune in recent years. Now considering a glass out respray to bring the exterior to the same quality as the mechanics.

    Could type for hours about the car.... Its another one of those hobbies like watches and photography that has become a bit of an obsession.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by cman View Post
    The 993 Turbo S is my dream car. It is the pinnacle for me, ticks every single box.

    Realising I won't be able to fulfil the dream, I downgraded the dream to 'just' the Turbo. Though having seen these rocket in value over the past few years means I'm almost having to downgrade to the Carrera 4S!! I think I'm a few years away from it..... grrr.

    Oh, and as the OP requested pics, here we go with some more...









    To owners, past and present, of either the 993 Turbo or 993 C4S - would you recommend them as a realistic daily driver? That is my only reservation.



    Gulp. What are the common problems? Perhaps this is one reason NOT to go for a Turbo - which is typically an expensive aspect.


    The car is capable of being a daily driver if well maintained.... But I'd seriously never use mine as such. Miles and daily dings will kill the value, the servicing will add up and parts vary in expense, plus its small with limited luggage space, plus the rhd models have an offset with the pedals that some find uncomfortable in heavy traffic and constant clutching.... They are old cars now, the youngest circa 1998 so even well maintained ones may have some things waiting to go wrong.

    But my biggest issue if I used my C4 daily would be that the specialness of getting up to go out in the car might be dampened by familiarity.

    Just my two pence....

  18. #18

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Benc999 View Post
    The car is capable of being a daily driver if well maintained.... But I'd seriously never use mine as such. Miles and daily dings will kill the value, the servicing will add up and parts vary in expense, plus its small with limited luggage space, plus the rhd models have an offset with the pedals that some find uncomfortable in heavy traffic and constant clutching.... They are old cars now, the youngest circa 1998 so even well maintained ones may have some things waiting to go wrong.

    But my biggest issue if I used my C4 daily would be that the specialness of getting up to go out in the car might be dampened by familiarity.

    Just my two pence....
    Thanks for the feedback. I understand the perspective of devaluing the car with increased use, however if... IF I managed to pick one up, I'm pretty sure I'd never sell it. It really is the 'dream'. I currently own an S2000 so it may well be a backwords step in terms of servicing, maintenance, etc. so that is another thing to consider.

    I was not aware of the offset pedals! Is this a constant theme across the 993 range or specific to some models only? What exactly is abnormal, if you don't mind explaining?

    Your last sentence does make me think twice. And I'm sure will stay with me until I'm in a position to actually go and purchase one. A house purchase this year has meant the Porsche plans have been delayed....

    I signed up to Rennlist not long ago to start reading up on some finer details, they seem quite knowledgeable.

    Feel free to post pics of yours - it sounds very well looked after!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by notnowkato View Post
    http://www.hexagonclassics.com/porsche-for-sale.asp

    we have a few if you are tempted,
    That is awesome!



  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by rgee View Post
    That is awesome!


    Mr Cohens old one if I'm not mistaken

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by cman View Post
    Thanks for the feedback. I understand the perspective of devaluing the car with increased use, however if... IF I managed to pick one up, I'm pretty sure I'd never sell it. It really is the 'dream'. I currently own an S2000 so it may well be a backwords step in terms of servicing, maintenance, etc. so that is another thing to consider.

    I was not aware of the offset pedals! Is this a constant theme across the 993 range or specific to some models only? What exactly is abnormal, if you don't mind explaining?

    Your last sentence does make me think twice. And I'm sure will stay with me until I'm in a position to actually go and purchase one. A house purchase this year has meant the Porsche plans have been delayed....

    I signed up to Rennlist not long ago to start reading up on some finer details, they seem quite knowledgeable.

    Feel free to post pics of yours - it sounds very well looked after!
    The pedals are slightly offset to the left- but it's no issue for most people.
    From day 1 I've never even given it any thought. The seats have plenty of adjustment-
    ie: a comfortable driving position is easy to achieve.

  23. #23
    Master
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    This used to be mine...






  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmkid View Post
    The pedals are slightly offset to the left- but it's no issue for most people.
    From day 1 I've never even given it any thought. The seats have plenty of adjustment-
    ie: a comfortable driving position is easy to achieve.
    I'm 6ft 4, with 38inch legs. I have a slight problem with 5th gear in so much as there isnt much room between the gear stick and the steering wheel when your leg is at a certain angle. Doesn't overly bother me, but then I don't use the car daily. I could fit a shorter gear lever or maybe a smaller diameter steering wheel, but I like to keep it porsche standard kit.

    Of course you could also go for a tiptronic (but manual is more fun)!

    I understand that the offset is becuase of the lhd to rhd conversion the factory did means rhd cars have a smaller fuel tank as well.... So if you could source and live with a leftie....?

  25. #25

    This was mine…….993 Targa

    Very special, and in many ways I regret parting with it.

    Best wishes,
    Martyn.






  26. #26
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by cman View Post
    Thanks for the feedback. I understand the perspective of devaluing the car with increased use, however if... IF I managed to pick one up, I'm pretty sure I'd never sell it. It really is the 'dream'. I currently own an S2000 so it may well be a backwords step in terms of servicing, maintenance, etc. so that is another thing to consider.

    I was not aware of the offset pedals! Is this a constant theme across the 993 range or specific to some models only? What exactly is abnormal, if you don't mind explaining?

    Your last sentence does make me think twice. And I'm sure will stay with me until I'm in a position to actually go and purchase one. A house purchase this year has meant the Porsche plans have been delayed....

    I signed up to Rennlist not long ago to start reading up on some finer details, they seem quite knowledgeable.

    Feel free to post pics of yours - it sounds very well looked after!

    Yes, Rennlist is good source of info... I've also used www.p-car.com and 911uk.com, Pistonheads has a Porsche forum, but its an acquired taste and focuses on all Porsches. There are a several good sites out there, google is your friend. I would also recommend a book called Porsche 993 Essential Companion by Adrian Streather as an excellent reference.

    I'm away on business at the mo, when I get home at the weekend I'll post some shots of my 'baby'!

  27. #27
    Craftsman
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    My dream car. Wife, children and probably a SMP come first, though.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by martynw View Post
    Very special, and in many ways I regret parting with it.

    Best wishes,
    Martyn.





    I know it's probably not the 'purists' choice, but a 993 targa (tiptronic) is right at the top of my wishlist.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Bootsy View Post
    Mr Cohens old one if I'm not mistaken
    Indeed.

    Been round Oulton in it (and his earlier Blue one). Just superb, but 993 RS & GT2's are now absolutely stratospheric money, more's the pity.

    An RS makes a fantastic road and track car in my view. All the "tries to kill you" bull can be ignored. If you can drive they are easily communicative enough to let you know what's going on and deliciously adjustable. Far from the fastest 911 of the many I've driven, but certainly the sweetest, with a beautiful harmonious balance to its abilities.
    Andy

    Wanted - Damasko DA38 or DC80 Green - not the black versions. Bell & Ross BR03-92 Nightlum

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by gunner View Post
    I know it's probably not the 'purists' choice, but a 993 targa (tiptronic) is right at the top of my wishlist.
    Good for cruising in traffic
    Andy

    Wanted - Damasko DA38 or DC80 Green - not the black versions. Bell & Ross BR03-92 Nightlum

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benc999 View Post
    Yes, Rennlist is good source of info... I've also used www.p-car.com and 911uk.com, Pistonheads has a Porsche forum, but its an acquired taste and focuses on all Porsches. There are a several good sites out there, google is your friend. I would also recommend a book called Porsche 993 Essential Companion by Adrian Streather as an excellent reference.

    I'm away on business at the mo, when I get home at the weekend I'll post some shots of my 'baby'!

    As promised... my little toy!




  32. #32
    Slight OT but saw black GT3 in London village, reg no GT03 CAR, which was nice.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy tims View Post
    Good for cruising in traffic
    I love a bit of cruising...

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Benc999 View Post
    As promised... my little toy!
    Stunning! You're a very lucky owner :). Body and paint looks in great condition there, congrats on ownership!

    Which rear spoiler / deck lid is that?
    I've seen quite a few different ones; the GT2 wing, an RS variant, the Turbo spoiler, then a few others I've seen on Carrera models which differ a little in appearance (and perhaps weight?). Which is yours?

    Maybe I should get a 'flame suit' on but I'd love a C4S with the Turbo lid....
    Last edited by cman; 24th May 2013 at 11:27. Reason: spelling!

  35. #35
    Master
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    This thread is making me want one!!!!!!!

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by cman View Post
    Stunning! You're a very lucky owner :). Body and paint looks in great condition there, congrats on ownership!

    Which rear spoiler / deck lid is that?
    I've seen quite a few different ones; the GT2 wing, an RS variant, the Turbo spoiler, then a few others I've seen on Carrera models which differ a little in appearance (and perhaps weight?). Which is yours?

    Maybe I should get a 'flame suit' on but I'd love a C4S with the Turbo lid....


    Its a Factory-fit Porsche TEquipment spoiler attached to the standard pop-up spoiler. Its probably fibreglass or similar as it's very light and quite flexible at speed. When I first got it I was going to take it off and revert to having the standard pop-up only spoiler, but I discovered it is properly attached and removing would require either a new standard spoiler or major hole filling and re-paint, so decided to keep it.

    Now I really like it, when the spoiler has popped up I can see the top plane in the rear-view mirror so I know the spoiler is working, and its quite unusual, giving a kind of twin level spoiler look - I've only seen another in car magazine review and the Porsche TEquipment Brochure.

    To honest though I doubt it adds anything at all to the standard spoilers downforce, so I will refrain from suggesting it adds 100mph to the top speed! :)

  37. #37
    Master
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    I love the 993, although it's TINY compared to the new gen cars. I tried to buy one a couple of years ago but gave up after looking at a number of cars - all were dogs and full of rust, even some expensive ones. In an ideal world I'd run my 997 daily and have a 993 S or Turbo as a second toy :D Probably a good investment in terms of no depreciation, but the running costs to maintain it properly will probably be fairly expensive.

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by NickMSM View Post
    Probably a good investment in terms of no depreciation, but the running costs to maintain it properly will probably be fairly expensive.
    This is indeed becoming an increasingly realistic concern... dent to the dream.

  39. #39
    The 993 is indeed a small car, most friends of mine that have been in the car comment how small and compact it seems-
    but I like the size and shape, the latest models just don't do it for me...which is good because I can't afford a new one anyway.

    The running costs ain't particularly cheap, obviously with a 3.6 engine it's not the most economical car to drive-
    in fact the fuel costs on a recent long drive to Devon and back were similar to that of chartering a 6 seater helicopter instead..
    but as the saying goes it's 'smiles per gallon' that counts....
    If you buy a good one though other running costs shouldn't be prohibitive- and obviously unlike a new car you haven't lost a
    fortune driving off the garage forecourt.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by cman View Post
    This is indeed becoming an increasingly realistic concern... dent to the dream.
    Well yes and no.... it's about how long you intend to keep it. I've had mine several years now and if I divided the cost over the years it's not been uber-expensive... although remember these were at least £65-70k+ when new and parts on a shelf don't depreciate, nor does an hourly rate.

    But you can be smart... most main dealers would struggle to properly service one as many of their staff weren't there in the mid-90's or earlier and of course the modern 911's are completely different... so a good specialist is essential. Also many parts are actually Bosch, VW or similar and there are people out there who can supply the same part but not in a Porsche box.

    As a guide, my annual expense on the car is circa £1.5k.... this allows the required service and a couple of smaller purchases - couple of tyres, or maybe the Brake Fluid, or maybe the air con regas.. etc. Brake discs are also quite regular but because the corrode rather than wear out.

    Every now and again something large drops... this year it has been the alternator and battery.... but Bosch Branded replacements were supplied and fitted for under £800.

    Other things that have needed to be done... Air conditioning condenser got damaged and needed replacement, both blower motors behind the dash needed replacement, seat motor failed, brakes needed overhaul due to plate lift, and the one of the bulbs behind the speedo failed.

    The biggest expense (upgrades aside) was a top end engine refurb, which fortunately discovered a cylinder problem (but before it actually became too bad), but still needed extra work, and as I had the engine out I got the clutch/flywheel changed too.... That bill was quite large....

    Mine probably hasn't depreciated much from the price I paid for it, it is rust free and has a massive file of service history.... but I'd never get back these servicing costs were I too sell. That said I've had amazing fun owning and driving it and still do. So much so that I'm considering spend several £k's on a respray and bodywork spruce up (it's currently not as good as the pictures suggest!)

  41. #41
    What sort of MPG are you looking at farmkid? Any big maintenance costs thus far?

    EDIT:

    Benc999, thanks for that! Really good specific information there and gives a good feeling/appreciation of how much it costs to run one. Much appreciated/.

    I'm glad the £1.5k/year estimation included consumables like tyres and fluids!

    The "Every now and again something large drops..." comment is interesting. I've gone from owning French to owning Jap so gone from one end of the reliability scale to the other!

    The respray certainly sounds interesting (and expensive) but fair play for wanting to keep it in the best condition possible!
    Last edited by cman; 24th May 2013 at 18:41.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmkid View Post
    The 993 is indeed a small car, most friends of mine that have been in the car comment how small and compact it seems-
    but I like the size and shape, the latest models just don't do it for me...which is good because I can't afford a new one anyway.

    The running costs ain't particularly cheap, obviously with a 3.6 engine it's not the most economical car to drive-
    in fact the fuel costs on a recent long drive to Devon and back were similar to that of chartering a 6 seater helicopter instead..
    but as the saying goes it's 'smiles per gallon' that counts....
    If you buy a good one though other running costs shouldn't be prohibitive- and obviously unlike a new car you haven't lost a
    fortune driving off the garage forecourt.
    Actually I find the fuel economy really good... maybe because it's been re-mapped and optimised, or maybe because my other car is a 5.0ltr Supercharged Jaguar XFR which has an even worse appetite for the super unleaded.

  43. #43
    Been looking at the 993 more and more recently, could be a replacement for my 997, they seem to be a very sound investment provided you get the right one!

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by glyn696486 View Post
    Been looking at the 993 more and more recently, could be a replacement for my 997, they seem to be a very sound investment provided you get the right one!
    Its an interesting thought process, I've considered the other way around...a 997 GTS or a new 991 to replace the 993.... Thoughts around something more modern, change from the 993...etc

    However I keep coming back to 1) it is my toy car and having the extra costs of the newer car would be a lot to have sitting around depreciating, 2) if I sold my 993 and wanted to go back to a 993 i won't want to go through the work to get one to the standard as good as I've got mine....

    Be sure to drive a 993 a bit before deciding, they are a very different feel to the 997. The 997 is a better car, the 993 a better toy... Which suits best?

  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by cman View Post
    What sort of MPG are you looking at farmkid? Any big maintenance costs thus far?

    EDIT:

    Benc999, thanks for that! Really good specific information there and gives a good feeling/appreciation of how much it costs to run one. Much appreciated/.

    I'm glad the £1.5k/year estimation included consumables like tyres and fluids!

    The "Every now and again something large drops..." comment is interesting. I've gone from owning French to owning Jap so gone from one end of the reliability scale to the other!

    The respray certainly sounds interesting (and expensive) but fair play for wanting to keep it in the best condition possible!
    I have to be honest-I have not bothered working out the MPG. All I know is it costs £98 to fill her up and it never seems very long before the fuel gauge has gone down again...but I have a Skoda Fabia diesel for everyday runaround anyway. If it's a special car for going out in I don't really care too much about running costs. I also have a 3.8 series 1 E Type which ain't economical to run, but again-it's worth it...
    We all die as beggars -on my death bed I won't be worried about fuel consumption.

    I haven't had any major maintenance bills for the 993- it's been well cared for prior to my ownership and runs sweet as a nut.
    Here's a couple more pics-


    Last edited by farmkid; 24th May 2013 at 23:15.

  46. #46
    Master
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    I posted some pics of my 993 above.

    My ownership experience was a bit mixed now that I look back on it.

    I bought a car at the top of the market from a very well respected indie, so I paid a handsome price.
    It was a fun car for blowing off the work cobwebs and enjoying at weekends. I rarely drove it in the wet. I like things to be perfect so ended up installing a Becker head unit, swapping the suspension, getting a geo set-up, some new PS2 tyres all-round after a day with Don Palmer and refurbing the alloys (not done by dealer) but didn't bother with the windscreen squeak. So over 2 and a bit years I threw about £5k at it.

    I used to look at it and get a hard on (almost) :) Driving it wasn't hard work as I only ever did 1-2 hour runs plus the odd blast to the coast or the thingy triangle in N Wales. I still smile when I think back to the engine noise. Only a Spitfire's is sweeter. But one hot summer's day I drive it down to the Quantocks for a work meeting and it was a hot, horrid, traffic-delayed journey. When I arrived I got into a colleague's Mazda 6 and thought 'ooh, this is nice' and I think at that point it was time to move the 993 on.

    So I took a huge bath on it when I sold it. But it was a great experience and one I don't regret. So OP - just go and do it!

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