Did I sell a fake Fortis?

[europa]

I really need your collective input here..



A while back I bought a Fortis Marinemaster Super Compressor from the US. It is a watch made from NOS 70’s parts. I sold it to ‘Crouchy’ (James) a few months ago. He has relisted it in SC, and has received a PM from member michalko82 (Mike, I believe) who told him that these are fake, coming from a guy in Malaysia. I will invite michalko82 to contribute to this discussion.

Obviously, if true, I have no problem refunding James fully.. but I do want to ascertain the truth. All I want is a civil discussion, and not here-say or internet rumours.. I’ve learned from experience that internet rumour can be repeated as fact.

My own feelings is that it is not a fake, it is very well made, and would seem strange that something of such high quality isn't known in the replica world, and no other super compressor fakes made. Also, you couldn't pick a more awkward watch to fake really - I mean, look at it!
I concede that it could be made from NOS parts, and not be part of the Limited Edition, but fake - IMHO, I don't think so.

This is the watch on my blog:
http://heuerville.wordpress.com/2012...ressor-decomp/

So.. it is either:
- A watch made from NOS parts
- A watch made of NOS parts, part of the Fortis LE90 edition
- A fake

So, when I first bought this, I did my research, I did note that some had ‘Marinemaster’ engraved on the back, some had ‘Marinemaster and a LE xx of 90’ engraved on the back, some had no engraving on the back. About 10 yrs ago Fortis made a limited run of these (90) made from NOS parts.

I did read online (on here I think) that there was some rumour that fakes had been made, but all accusations were answered by various experts. There was also some talk of non-LE models being made up from NOS ‘70s parts. But information seems limited.

Since James (Crouchy) contacted me, I’ve been digging around and I can’t find any concrete information online that supports the ‘fake theory’. I even browsed a replica forum, where someone asked where they could find a rep of one.. they categorically said “you won’t find a rep of a one of these” going on to say that you won’t find a rep of any 70’s super compressor case.
http://www.replica-watch.info/vb/sho...er-63641.html?


If you google it, you will see this model sold on Rolex forums, dive watch forums, watchuseek, plus loads of other watch forums. You can see a few for sale on specialist online shops. In all these cases, it has never been flagged up or suggested that it is fake.. more importantly, if mine is proved to be fake, then all the others in collectors hands will be under huge suspicion too.
http://modernvintageclassicwatches.c...diver-watches/



So, please share your expertise.
In the mean –time, James is going to get the case back whipped off and photos of all markings taken.

[AlphaOmega]

Whatever happens in this thread from here on Stewart, your post is an example of how to deal with uncertainty while maintaining your integrity.

[Crouchy]

Stewart has been great, sadly I am no expert (and before the deluge hits from wellsy and such like ;-)) I have never pretended to be. That is why this is the only forum I frequent because the vast majority of the great unwashed on here are honest. As luck would have it I had another potential buyer last night but I have just told him to wait out as there may be an issue. This is what makes this place what it is. I for one hope it all turns out well, even though I looking to sell it, as it is a great looking watch.
Thanks in advance to those far more educated in horological history than I who will help this get sorted.

James

[gunner]

Personally, I'd be surprised if something like this was a fake. However, I did buy a fake vintage Fortis a couple of years ago so it does happen.

As already mentioned, looking inside the case should give more clues.

[Mark020]

+1. Nice watch btw. And fake or not: the gentlemens way to solve an issue like this.

[Pubdweller]

+1. Nice watch btw. And fake or not: the gentlemens way to solve an issue like this.

+1

[sweets]

Hi
As above, this would seem to be an exercise in the most sensible way of dealing with this issue.
I have nothing to add in terms of actual evidence.
However, I will say that personally, I have been concerned over the quality of casebacks on some examples I have seen.

I suggest that an internal inspection with the caseback off should reveal all you need to settle this.
If a genuine EPSA super-compressor case was used, it will be fully signed internally with the helmet, their Brevet numbers and the date stamp.
And also the Fortis engraving on the rotor and so forth.
I can't see a faker going to this trouble.
D

[Crouchy]

Hi
As above, this would seem to be an exercise in the most sensible way of dealing with this issue.
I have nothing to add in terms of actual evidence.
However, I will say that personally, I have been concerned over the quality of casebacks on some examples I have seen.

I suggest that an internal inspection with the caseback off should reveal all you need to settle this.
If a genuine EPSA super-compressor case was used, it will be fully signed internally with the helmet, their Brevet numbers and the date stamp.
And also the Fortis engraving on the rotor and so forth.
I can't see a faker going to this trouble.
D

Well people, just got back from my local watch guy (lucky he is local) AGAIN - popped in this morning. After a little gentle persuasion he popped the back off (at my risk as he was scared to mark it), and...............

Its all good, pictures to follow once photobucket sorts its life out. Perhaps its time to put the price up as the forummer that alerted me initially said it would be worth in the the region of £1k if genuine.

Thanks to all, this is what TZ is all about.

James

[europa]

Thanks for everyones input..

Thanks for arranging to get the caseback off James... I think that's a very good result, it has all the correct super compressor markings and correct Fortis Rotor markings.

[seikopath]

nice to have a happy ending!

[Blueboy1]

Well people, just got back from my local watch guy (lucky he is local) AGAIN - popped in this morning. After a little gentle persuasion he popped the back off (at my risk as he was scared to mark it), and...............

Its all good, pictures to follow once photobucket sorts its life out. Perhaps its time to put the price up as the forummer that alerted me initially said it would be worth in the the region of £1k if genuine.

Thanks to all, this is what TZ is all about.

James

That's great news, as I also have one and often wondered about their authenticity when I saw other similar watches for sale. I had a vintage one too but the dial was very faded.


There was another manufacturer who made a very similar one but the name escapes me. I'll have to dig through the archives...

[Daddelvirks]

This is how things should be settled, all in the spirit of this forum.

Gives you the good feeling that trading and buying here is safe as houses!

Daddel.

[demer03]

Funny, but I've noticed there have been an aweful lot of these on eBay and the forums over the last year.....given that it's a vintage piece and all.

[rasputin10]

There was another manufacturer who made a very similar one but the name escapes me. I'll have to dig through the archives...

Vulcain maybe?

[Cirrus]

Whatever happens in this thread from here on Stewart, your post is an example of how to deal with uncertainty while maintaining your integrity.

I agree - kudos to europa and Crouchy for dealing with could potentially have been something at least embarrassing in calm and adult manner ;)

[michalko82]

Hi guys,

I've never said this is a FAKE Fortis, but I said this is NOT a 90 pieces re-issue Limited edition. It can be a NOS case and movement, but the dials are a complete redial and the rubber band is newly made.

It is not a fake as it's not worth faking a WIS watch in low volume, but I would compare it to those great looking Seikos from 70' which look like new...there are genuine but not NOS, but rather very well restored examples

All in all, a great watch at a budget price comparing to £1500+ reissue or untouched vintage

[seffrican]

What does Fortis say about the provenance of this one? I don't believe it's been mentioned in the thread yet.

[europa]

What does Fortis say about the provenance of this one? I don't believe it's been mentioned in the thread yet.

Interestingly, I sent a photo to Fortis ages ago, as I wanted to figure out how the dive table worked, and wondered if they had a copy of any instructions - paper or digital that they could send me.

The reply came back, praising the watch but unfortunately, they didn't have any instructions they could share.
Now, I didn't ask them to appraise the watch, as at the time I was just after some instructions.

[europa]

Hi guys,

I've never said this is a FAKE Fortis, but I said this is NOT a 90 pieces re-issue Limited edition. It can be a NOS case and movement, but the dials are a complete redial and the rubber band is newly made.

It is not a fake as it's not worth faking a WIS watch in low volume, but I would compare it to those great looking Seikos from 70' which look like new...there are genuine but not NOS, but rather very well restored examples

All in all, a great watch at a budget price comparing to £1500+ reissue or untouched vintage

Thanks for joining in michalko82.

The issue I would like to resolve is the first sentence, where you say the dials are re-dials and the band is new.

The band - first off, yes it is new. As I understand it, even the LE90 run from fortis came supplied with brand new rubber straps and brand new buckles.

The dial - this is where I would like some clarity.
If a person was 'putting these together' they managed to get all NOS original parts - not just a one-off either, but enough to make many watches. This is no mean feat. This theory would suggest that it's odd that someone would take the original dials and refinish them... or they couldn't get any dials, so went to the trouble of having dials made to a high spec. Remember, this is a complex dial too..

It's only an opinion, but this doesn't add up. What I would like to see is some sort of evidence, or links, or whatever to suggest this is the case. Someone selling these in high numbers - there should be an 'internet trail' of some sort.

Please can you share your research/links etc.

Thanks

[wookie]

There was a seller on ebay who had about 6 to 8 of these exact models last year as well as loads of nos pocket watches and rolex buckles, the seller was in england, I bought a nos imado bracelet for one of my divers from him.
I think the fortis watches sold for between 300 and 400 , I'll see if I can find the seller in my feedback
wookie


found him, it was treasurez_4u

[spuds]

Whatever happens in this thread from here on Stewart, your post is an example of how to deal with uncertainty while maintaining your integrity.

This.

[hilly10]

Whatever happens in this thread from here on Stewart, your post is an example of how to deal with uncertainty while maintaining your integrity.

Yes very nice to see an issue resolved in this manner

[Xantiagib]

Well I got my ebay mis-purchase refunded - I had thought fortis reissued these along with 90 special anniversary ones - should have done my homework....

[Xantiagib]

I contacted FORTIS - and got a reply.
I don't really want to go into too many details yet but they reply came from a marketing person and not too detailed lets say they think they are NOS batch found- of course I sent one photo and
the laser etching, spelling mistakes etc... do not make sense for that story to be true

I am thinking a WIS with manufacturing connections had come across a batch of these and redialed and recased them - (perhaps even removemented some of them as other movements have been found in them not just the 2783 - ex Fortis employee perhaps? or subcontractor... ?)

Here is a cool fact sheet they sent - the dial looks 100% like the current ebay ones just not the rotating bezel scale which is part of the re-issued - the plot thickens

[Vandervenus]

...the dial looks 100% like the current ebay ones just not the rotating bezel scale which is part of the re-issued - the plot thickens

I compared photos of the dials on the "eBay Marinemasters" with the dial of my authentic example from 1968. I also have a good picture of a Marinemaster that was part of the batch of 90 re-issues that came out in 2002.

One of the main differences is the window for the date. It should be a very straight square with nice depth. The re-issues from the Bay show a wobbly, thick line, that is not nearly as detailed as the original. And that is just one of the many differences. I'm certainly not a watch expert, but these eBay Fortis Marinemasters are NOT build from original Fortis stock parts.

[PandaBeat]

Hello people; my name is Max and I found your forum while googling about "fake Marinemaster Fortis". Yep. I've been asking myself pretty much the same question as many of you: are these replicas??? (sorry for the huge wall of text below)

I'm a sucker for vintage watches with internal rotating bezels and multiple crowns, I'm addicted to them, I don't care if it's a rubbish french watch with an EB movement in it, or if it's an Audemar Piguet: I like them all.

So, since this Fortis is a handsome watch matching that criteria, I've been keeping an eye on them... I've noticed an awful lot of these for sale in the last year or two, but the thing that makes me curious is not the amount of them surfacing, but the people that sell them, the eBay sellers: most of these are showing up in Vietnam, Singapore, HongKong and Malaysia... that's not suspicious by itself, but...

Being the watch psychopath that I am, when I see a watch that I like I always check the rest of the items of the seller, because I think to myself "If this guy has this watch, he might be selling a collection of similar watches" (while finger-crossing and hoping that he has 100 multiple-crown/pushers watches for sale - I bet you guys think the same, come on)

So, while doing this, I've found that many of these Marinemasters are part of the inventory of sellers that are selling other suspicious vintage watches, some of them already confirmed to be fakes, like some sweet-looking Rado Diastar Divers (and a ton of other Rados), the OMAX Spaceman Audacieuse (and other Omaxes), Orient SK s, Orients King Divers of all sizes and colors, Omega Seamasters from the 60s and even some newly-invented vintage Seikos and Citizens that didn't even exist before.

One of the most infamous eBay sellers doing this is "sophon_l". I recommend you check his inventory and do a Google search about that seller and the therm "fake" to read and learn some of the scams that these people run. In this thread I see you mention another eBay seller: treasurez_4u. I literally purchased over 100 watches from him (not kidding) without any problems. Talking to him, he once told me that he had a friend in Singapore that had a warehouse with 10s of 1000s of NOS watches of all kinds... I don't know, things happen, companies close, owners die, etc, and there might be a nice surplus of NOS jewels locked around the globe waiting to be found...

There was an eBay seller called "thaigoodwill" that when I was an eBay n00b, took my money for a purchase of a lot of NOS Vostoks and dissapeared, he also had these Marinemasters on auction (he kept at least one listed for sale, constantly) and that was going to be my next purchase from him (I lost one of his auctions at something like 160 dollars!). The thing is that time later I recognized the same "style" of photography and the way to list the items in another thai seller (nicesdream), also selling a Marinemaster, so I sent him a message to which he responded that he wasn't thaigoodwill, that he was his friend... hmmmm

Sometimes all this makes me think that there's a huge criminal organization making fakes out of everything, out of the least expected things, similar to what happens in latest Jackie Chan movie, Chinese Zodiac lol. (seriously, why make a fake of an old Citizen?!)


So guys, knowing all this, more questions than answers, I wouldn't purchase any of these thinking that they're the real thing.

Greetings from Uruguay!

[Lampoc]

Hi Max and welcome to the forum. Great first post too. I have to admit I think the same way as you whenever I see a glut of NOS watches. I've been after an original Vostok Albatross Radio room for a while now but all I keep seeing is a steady stream of "NOS" versions... these have always been the most sought after Vostoks and suddenly they all appear? Suspicious to say the least. And some of the NOS Seikos and Orients out there are frankly laughable.

[Clouseau]

Hi, my first post on this forum.

My take on this is that it's a fake or at best half fake, half frankenwatch. What I think has happened is that some one gor their hands on one of the LE90 and made a copy of that. Why do I think this is what happened?

First of all the condition of the watches is just to god to be real NOS. Even for a watch that has been in a crate for 40 years.

Second, many of these NOS comes on the same rubber bracelets as the LE90 and there is just to many of them for sale to be the actual LE90s and if the rubber bracelet was original it would have dried out and breake by now.

Third, ALL the NOS that looks to good to be true are stamped april 1970 (4-70). If you look around for legit vintage watches of this model they have a great variety months and years stamped.

Fourth, the crowns look laser engraved.

So what about the movement? I belive the have made a fake rotor and put it on sourced real ETA movements from old watches. This is how ever just a guess. It would be the easiest way to do it I belive.


One thing that would be interesting to know is if there is any one out there with one of these NOS that could test the lume. It says on the dial that it is tritium coated so if it is a real NOS the lume should be close to non existing. The tritium would be down to between 5-10% of its original charge and the phospor used on tritium dials don't get all that exited from UV-light. On the other hand, if the dial is new and tritium coated it would have a steady glow all trough the night. If it's not tritium at all but just new phospor coating it would be easily exited by UV-light and have a strong glow that would slowely fade. I'm no expert on lume so if there is any flaws to this theory please tell me!

And I also want to ad that I'm impressed by the OP for starting this dialog! Well done sir, I take my hatt of to you!

[seikopath]

welcome to the forum clouseau , have you seen my minky

[Clouseau]

welcome to the forum clouseau , have you seen my minky

I don't know Cato. Has it run away? ;)

[Kakadu]

Thanks Neil, much as I thought - it still looks quite pretty, got it for £20!
David

[Fuser]

Might be worth a email to Fortis at: vintage(at)fortis-watches.com it is their specific vintage watch contact email. Good luck.

[HappyJack]

It's a long time since I studied diving theory, but the dial markings look like no-stop (no decompression stop) tables. So the depths around the chapter ring allow you to see for the elapsed time (setting the internal bezel zero mark at the hour hand as you start the dive) what depth you can get to before you have to head back to the surface for the elapsed time.

The blocked areas on the dial show also the no-stop tables, but the information is presented as minutes from 60 rather than against your start . So you can see the point for each of the depths shown when you'd have to ascend, and plan the dive accordingly.

Multiple dives require a more complex calculation and I don't think the watch is capable of showing that.

[MadeOfCheese]

Apologies for resurrecting this old thread, but I've been looking at a few of these on the 'bay, and my suspicions were aroused.

There are two that Ive been looking at recently, one which has finished and went for £321
http://goo.gl/yDbO3E

and one which is currently live:
http://goo.gl/5MeajV

They are both from Germany, are on identical straps, in identically pristine condition, both have fantastic lume for a 40yo watch, and most tellingly, both are "STAINLESS MARINEMASTER WATERPROOP"

My spidey sense is tingling...

[shadowman]

Apologies for resurrecting this old thread, but I've been looking at a few of these on the 'bay, and my suspicions were aroused.

There are two that Ive been looking at recently, one which has finished and went for £321
http://goo.gl/yDbO3E

and one which is currently live:
http://goo.gl/5MeajV

They are both from Germany, are on identical straps, in identically pristine condition, both have fantastic lume for a 40yo watch, and most tellingly, both are "STAINLESS MARINEMASTER WATERPROOP"

My spidey sense is tingling...

I've always wanted a waterproop watch. At least now i have a opportunity

[benny.c]

There's been around 40 of these on eBay since the start of May, most going for around £300. Definitely fishy.

[MadeOfCheese]

I bought this particular example after winning the auction.
It's definitely not kosher, how much of it is genuine I don't know (the "waterproop" was a bit of a giveaway, right? ;) )

The midcase seems legit, as does the dial and hands (lume is actually quite faded in reality), but that could be it.

My guess is its a combination of NOS leftovers and new parts made to complete the build.

I've yet to open it up to see if it's a genuine eta movement or a copy. It certainly runs well and accurately.

However, all that said it's a stunning watch. Beautiful proportions and finish, sits well on the wrist, and the bulbous plexi is gorgeous.

It may not be fully legit (and if I were ever to decide to move it on I would make that abundantly clear) but it's a lovely piece in its own right, and deserves to be worn.

[Vandervenus]

I bought this particular example after winning the auction.
It's definitely not kosher, how much of it is genuine I don't know (the "waterproop" was a bit of a giveaway, right? ;) )

The midcase seems legit, as does the dial and hands (lume is actually quite faded in reality), but that could be it.

My guess is its a combination of NOS leftovers and new parts made to complete the build.

I've yet to open it up to see if it's a genuine eta movement or a copy. It certainly runs well and accurately.

However, all that said it's a stunning watch. Beautiful proportions and finish, sits well on the wrist, and the bulbous plexi is gorgeous.

It may not be fully legit (and if I were ever to decide to move it on I would make that abundantly clear) but it's a lovely piece in its own right, and deserves to be worn.

Hello guys,

I'm new at this forum and I'm from Holland, so I'd like to give my apologies for any crippled English... I really love your forum. As a fresh collector and proud owner of 15 watches (mostly from the seventies), the forum has been a big help for me on finding more information on certain models. Also, I found quite a few new brands and models I like to add to my collection.

I stumbled upon this threat when I did some research after pushing the 'buy it now' button on an immaculate looking Marinemaster on eBay. To be honest, it looked too good to be true, certainly considering the price tag of 310 pounds.

So, this is what I found out this weekend and which I'd like to share to the discussion on the forum:
- There are a handful of eBay-sellers out there, based in the UK that seem to be selling the exact same watch. Pictures are all alike. It goes for roughly 250 - 350 pounds, at least the last couple of months it has.
- They all come with the same rubber strap and Fortis buckle.
- They all have the ETA 2783 movement (25 jewels).
- The bezel says 'depth in feet.' which indicates that it's the 2002 re-edition. Another clue is the 'T swiss made T' signing on the dial.
- On the back it's stamped with the now famous '4-70' mark.
- The back side has the stamp of the helmet. Some are engraved with 'Marinemaster' + 'Stainless'. Others have only 'Marinemaster' and some seem to be without any engravings.

I'm quite sure these UK-sellers get their stock from Asia. While googling, I found the weblog/webshop of 'Watchlim's vintage store' (that is full of great stuff by the way). As we speak, he sells two identical MarineMasters that he added just recently (august and july). He claims that the cases are NEW AFTERMARKET. Also, the crowns are NEW. The dial is ORIGINAL RECON. I don't know exactly what that means. I added a screenshot of the page.


And there's more. On eBay some guy is selling 'new' bezels and dials for the Marinemaster. The pieces of the puzzle are literally coming together..?



Now, I'm not saying that the seller on Watchlim is a fraud. And I'm not claiming that the vendors on eBay are conning us. All I like to know is if these watches are legit, If they're technically reliable. What part of the watch is NOS/original Fortis or whatever, and which parts are after market? I guess it's safe to say I bought a Franken. But my question is this: are there any parts in these watches that are actually genuine Fortis?

MadeOfCheese stated that this Marinemaster deserves to be worn. I just dunno...

[barneygumble]

What I don't understand is why someone would make frankens of fairly obscure 70s watches rather than just modern fakes that will sell for as much but have a much bigger market.

[markrlondon]

What I don't understand is why someone would make frankens of fairly obscure 70s watches rather than just modern fakes that will sell for as much but have a much bigger market.

They still sell well?
They are easier to fake and it is harder to tell that the watch is a fake?
The fakers are less likely to be pursued by the company whose IP they are misusing?

[Vandervenus]

They still sell well?
They are easier to fake and it is harder to tell that the watch is a fake?
The fakers are less likely to be pursued by the company whose IP they are misusing?

I can definitively confirm that they sell very well. There've been sold quite a lot on eBay the last two months. No wondering: buying a legit NOS for 300 pounds give or take is quite tempting. I bought one and was thrilled 'cause I thought I got a classic diver in immaculate state. I tried to convince myself that a crate of NOS was found somewhere in a warehouse. After the research I did, I positive I'm being scammed...

Also, there are a couple Marinemasters on eBay that seem 100% originals. But they go for at least 1.000 pounds. You can imagine that the sellers of these originals are not happy with what's going on...

[gray]

They are too franken to be considered original

[gray]

I can assure you they are not NOS dials. Totally different. Originals screen printed in several colours. Not the right colour highlights on the transfer dials.