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Thread: Did I sell a fake Fortis?

  1. #1
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    Did I sell a fake Fortis?

    I really need your collective input here..



    A while back I bought a Fortis Marinemaster Super Compressor from the US. It is a watch made from NOS 70’s parts. I sold it to ‘Crouchy’ (James) a few months ago. He has relisted it in SC, and has received a PM from member michalko82 (Mike, I believe) who told him that these are fake, coming from a guy in Malaysia. I will invite michalko82 to contribute to this discussion.

    Obviously, if true, I have no problem refunding James fully.. but I do want to ascertain the truth. All I want is a civil discussion, and not here-say or internet rumours.. I’ve learned from experience that internet rumour can be repeated as fact.

    My own feelings is that it is not a fake, it is very well made, and would seem strange that something of such high quality isn't known in the replica world, and no other super compressor fakes made. Also, you couldn't pick a more awkward watch to fake really - I mean, look at it!
    I concede that it could be made from NOS parts, and not be part of the Limited Edition, but fake - IMHO, I don't think so.

    This is the watch on my blog:
    http://heuerville.wordpress.com/2012...ressor-decomp/

    So.. it is either:
    - A watch made from NOS parts
    - A watch made of NOS parts, part of the Fortis LE90 edition
    - A fake

    So, when I first bought this, I did my research, I did note that some had ‘Marinemaster’ engraved on the back, some had ‘Marinemaster and a LE xx of 90’ engraved on the back, some had no engraving on the back. About 10 yrs ago Fortis made a limited run of these (90) made from NOS parts.

    I did read online (on here I think) that there was some rumour that fakes had been made, but all accusations were answered by various experts. There was also some talk of non-LE models being made up from NOS ‘70s parts. But information seems limited.

    Since James (Crouchy) contacted me, I’ve been digging around and I can’t find any concrete information online that supports the ‘fake theory’. I even browsed a replica forum, where someone asked where they could find a rep of one.. they categorically said “you won’t find a rep of a one of these” going on to say that you won’t find a rep of any 70’s super compressor case.
    http://www.replica-watch.info/vb/sho...er-63641.html?


    If you google it, you will see this model sold on Rolex forums, dive watch forums, watchuseek, plus loads of other watch forums. You can see a few for sale on specialist online shops. In all these cases, it has never been flagged up or suggested that it is fake.. more importantly, if mine is proved to be fake, then all the others in collectors hands will be under huge suspicion too.
    http://modernvintageclassicwatches.c...diver-watches/



    So, please share your expertise.
    In the mean –time, James is going to get the case back whipped off and photos of all markings taken.

  2. #2
    Master AlphaOmega's Avatar
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    Whatever happens in this thread from here on Stewart, your post is an example of how to deal with uncertainty while maintaining your integrity.

  3. #3
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    Stewart has been great, sadly I am no expert (and before the deluge hits from wellsy and such like ;-)) I have never pretended to be. That is why this is the only forum I frequent because the vast majority of the great unwashed on here are honest. As luck would have it I had another potential buyer last night but I have just told him to wait out as there may be an issue. This is what makes this place what it is. I for one hope it all turns out well, even though I looking to sell it, as it is a great looking watch.
    Thanks in advance to those far more educated in horological history than I who will help this get sorted.

    James

  4. #4
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    Hi
    As above, this would seem to be an exercise in the most sensible way of dealing with this issue.
    I have nothing to add in terms of actual evidence.
    However, I will say that personally, I have been concerned over the quality of casebacks on some examples I have seen.

    I suggest that an internal inspection with the caseback off should reveal all you need to settle this.
    If a genuine EPSA super-compressor case was used, it will be fully signed internally with the helmet, their Brevet numbers and the date stamp.
    And also the Fortis engraving on the rotor and so forth.
    I can't see a faker going to this trouble.
    D

  5. #5
    Master gunner's Avatar
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    Personally, I'd be surprised if something like this was a fake. However, I did buy a fake vintage Fortis a couple of years ago so it does happen.

    As already mentioned, looking inside the case should give more clues.

  6. #6
    Master Mark020's Avatar
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    +1. Nice watch btw. And fake or not: the gentlemens way to solve an issue like this.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    Hi
    As above, this would seem to be an exercise in the most sensible way of dealing with this issue.
    I have nothing to add in terms of actual evidence.
    However, I will say that personally, I have been concerned over the quality of casebacks on some examples I have seen.

    I suggest that an internal inspection with the caseback off should reveal all you need to settle this.
    If a genuine EPSA super-compressor case was used, it will be fully signed internally with the helmet, their Brevet numbers and the date stamp.
    And also the Fortis engraving on the rotor and so forth.
    I can't see a faker going to this trouble.
    D
    Well people, just got back from my local watch guy (lucky he is local) AGAIN - popped in this morning. After a little gentle persuasion he popped the back off (at my risk as he was scared to mark it), and...............

    Its all good, pictures to follow once photobucket sorts its life out. Perhaps its time to put the price up as the forummer that alerted me initially said it would be worth in the the region of £1k if genuine.

    Thanks to all, this is what TZ is all about.

    James




  8. #8
    Master Cirrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaOmega View Post
    Whatever happens in this thread from here on Stewart, your post is an example of how to deal with uncertainty while maintaining your integrity.
    I agree - kudos to europa and Crouchy for dealing with could potentially have been something at least embarrassing in calm and adult manner ;)

  9. #9
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    Thanks for everyones input..

    Thanks for arranging to get the caseback off James... I think that's a very good result, it has all the correct super compressor markings and correct Fortis Rotor markings.

  10. #10
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    Hi guys,

    I've never said this is a FAKE Fortis, but I said this is NOT a 90 pieces re-issue Limited edition. It can be a NOS case and movement, but the dials are a complete redial and the rubber band is newly made.

    It is not a fake as it's not worth faking a WIS watch in low volume, but I would compare it to those great looking Seikos from 70' which look like new...there are genuine but not NOS, but rather very well restored examples

    All in all, a great watch at a budget price comparing to £1500+ reissue or untouched vintage

  11. #11
    Grand Master seikopath's Avatar
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    nice to have a happy ending!
    Good luck everybody. Have a good one.

  12. #12
    Master seffrican's Avatar
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    What does Fortis say about the provenance of this one? I don't believe it's been mentioned in the thread yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michalko82 View Post
    Hi guys,

    I've never said this is a FAKE Fortis, but I said this is NOT a 90 pieces re-issue Limited edition. It can be a NOS case and movement, but the dials are a complete redial and the rubber band is newly made.

    It is not a fake as it's not worth faking a WIS watch in low volume, but I would compare it to those great looking Seikos from 70' which look like new...there are genuine but not NOS, but rather very well restored examples

    All in all, a great watch at a budget price comparing to £1500+ reissue or untouched vintage
    Thanks for joining in michalko82.

    The issue I would like to resolve is the first sentence, where you say the dials are re-dials and the band is new.

    The band - first off, yes it is new. As I understand it, even the LE90 run from fortis came supplied with brand new rubber straps and brand new buckles.

    The dial - this is where I would like some clarity.
    If a person was 'putting these together' they managed to get all NOS original parts - not just a one-off either, but enough to make many watches. This is no mean feat. This theory would suggest that it's odd that someone would take the original dials and refinish them... or they couldn't get any dials, so went to the trouble of having dials made to a high spec. Remember, this is a complex dial too..

    It's only an opinion, but this doesn't add up. What I would like to see is some sort of evidence, or links, or whatever to suggest this is the case. Someone selling these in high numbers - there should be an 'internet trail' of some sort.

    Please can you share your research/links etc.

    Thanks

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by seffrican View Post
    What does Fortis say about the provenance of this one? I don't believe it's been mentioned in the thread yet.
    Interestingly, I sent a photo to Fortis ages ago, as I wanted to figure out how the dive table worked, and wondered if they had a copy of any instructions - paper or digital that they could send me.

    The reply came back, praising the watch but unfortunately, they didn't have any instructions they could share.
    Now, I didn't ask them to appraise the watch, as at the time I was just after some instructions.

  15. #15
    There was a seller on ebay who had about 6 to 8 of these exact models last year as well as loads of nos pocket watches and rolex buckles, the seller was in england, I bought a nos imado bracelet for one of my divers from him.
    I think the fortis watches sold for between 300 and 400 , I'll see if I can find the seller in my feedback
    wookie


    found him, it was treasurez_4u
    Last edited by wookie; 2nd May 2013 at 14:19.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by wookie View Post
    There was a seller on ebay who had about 6 to 8 of these exact models last year as well as loads of nos pocket watches and rolex buckles, the seller was in england, I bought a nos imado bracelet for one of my divers from him.
    I think the fortis watches sold for between 300 and 400 , I'll see if I can find the seller in my feedback
    wookie


    found him, it was treasurez_4u

    Thanks Wookie..

    I guess this boils down to this question:
    How does anyone know that the dials aren't original Fortis?

  17. #17
    Grand Master seikopath's Avatar
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    if i was going to fake a dial i wouldnt pick something a) that obscure or b) that complicated
    Good luck everybody. Have a good one.

  18. #18
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    Personally I think it's often almost impossible to tell with these things, especially from photos. Maybe if we could get some macro photos of the dial with the crystal off then someone more well versed in this stuff than I might be able to make a guestimate.

    I'm curious to know what indicators there are for this to be thought to be a redial?

    Personally I think it looks like an absolute nightmare to re-do, so from that angle alone I think saying its a redial without any solid evidence seems like a long shot.

  19. #19
    Master kungfugerbil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by europa View Post
    How does anyone know that the dials aren't original Fortis?
    Difficult. There's a fair few the same currently listed on the bay out of Vietnam, the US, Australia and the UK - it looks like there's plenty coming out of somewhere but who knows where. Personally there's too many immaculate 'vintage' ones around for my liking, but I'm a suspicious person by nature :)

    It is however a very handsome watch.
    Last edited by kungfugerbil; 2nd May 2013 at 14:37.

  20. #20
    Master pacifichrono's Avatar
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    I had one for a couple years before selling it...great watch! I also did a lot of internet research and concluded it was a genuine Fortis reissue using mostly NOS parts. My watchmaker confirmed that the movement was a genuine ETA 2783, which was only made from the late 1960s to the mid 1970s. Here are a few photos.














  21. #21
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    All I can say is that Fortis dials age so much better than any Rolex or Omega I've ever seen....

    End of discussion. It's a handsome watch, that's all what matters

  22. #22
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    Thanks again for everyone's input.

    Also, an apology to michalko82, as he didn't technically come out and call it a 'fake'.. just a poor writing on my part.
    Certainly an interesting issue. As for the main parties, myself and James - we are both happy.


  23. #23
    Master Mark020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wookie View Post
    There was a seller on ebay who had about 6 to 8 of these exact models last year as well as loads of nos pocket watches and rolex buckles, the seller was in england, I bought a nos imado bracelet for one of my divers from him.
    I think the fortis watches sold for between 300 and 400 , I'll see if I can find the seller in my feedback
    wookie


    found him, it was treasurez_4u

    Well: look at his feedback. http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayIS...k&myworld=true

    Somebody else was not convinced.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark020 View Post
    Well: look at his feedback. http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayIS...k&myworld=true

    Somebody else was not convinced.
    Interesting, anyway, the back has been off of this one, you can all see. I think dial is too good for a redial, just too much work. The case is clearly genuine, again too much effort for such a low end piece, and the date April 70 fits.
    Some people will be happy some won't I for one am satisfied it is all Fortis.
    Thanks for everyone's help here.
    James

  25. #25
    Grand Master gray's Avatar
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    Hi Stewart

    You may recall I had one of these as you were in the process of sourcing yours.
    The one I had came from a UK seller on eBay and I was not happy with it.
    I had issues with the one I sourced so returned it for a refund.
    In summary, whatever the case back and movement show (I never took the back off), the strap was new and most certainly the dial was like new. The originals were screen printed, I believe, and the "new" ones transfer printed. My dial had small creases in the transfer. The colours were also not like the originals - not enough colours. The whole thing thing just didn't feel right - not scientific perhaps but I listen to my gut. Well at least that was my opinion and the seller - who had sold several - gave me a refund.

    Cheers
    Gray

  26. #26
    Craftsman Coops365's Avatar
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    Very handsome watch regardless of its exact provenance.

    I think we've seen enough to know that the case, movement etc is genuine, if not part of the LE90.

    The one jarring note is why michalko82 is so 100% sure that it's "a complete redial". :shrug:
    Last edited by Coops365; 2nd May 2013 at 15:33.

  27. #27
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    Just to close the conversation....I'm not 100% sure as I've not seen it being painted on my own eyes. As a matter of fact...does it matter if it is or it's not? Depends if you like a faded tired looking dial with no lume left or a fresh bright still usable (glowing) one.




    Quote Originally Posted by Coops365 View Post
    Very handsome watch regardless of its exact provenance.

    I think we've seen enough to know that the case, movement etc is genuine, if not part of the LE90.

    The one jarring note is why michalko82 is so 100% sure that it's "a complete redial". :shrug:

  28. #28
    Now some one put together an bunch of Omega SHOM NOS parts with a movement that was the same used in the original but the movement started out in another watch. My be this is what this Marine master is NOS parts and a used correct movement that started out in another watch ?

  29. #29
    Master scarto's Avatar
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    Topic well approached, Stewart..well done.


    I have more than a passing interest in this as I bought a similar NOS model over a year ago from SC and have often wondered on the origins of the watch (such a beautiful piece, in stunning condition) and for a good price - I keep thinking when I look at it that it was too good to be true.

    I have no doubt it was sold to me in good faith..I'd just like to know what it is!

  30. #30
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    An interesting tale, and one without definitive conclusions, imho.
    The internals look great.
    The dial too, with admittedly very fresh colours. This could be due to expert storage.
    Or perhaps this is exactly the same as the beautiful NOS dials you can get from Watchco for SM120Cs or SM300s. I.e. Not exactly NOS but re-manufactured by the correct source.
    To me it all looks good, but Fortis' reply is a bit annoying. It would be better to know if they believe there are more examples out there, because there are definitely more than an LE of 90 knocking around the marketplace.
    One other interesting observation on Pacifichronos example. Look at the hatching on the crown in the third photo.
    That groove with what looks like a blasted finish to the base looks very modern to me. It also looks like the hatching peters out. I would expect the hatching to end where the crown profile goes into a chamfer.
    Anyway, I think the weight of evidence is heavily on the side of genuine, but there are still queries to answer about the model, though not specifically about Stewart's example.

    D

  31. #31
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    I will say that one has to be very careful when inspecting the authenticity of vintage divers. I used to feel the same way about "why would anyone counterfeit such an obscure / WIS-only-interested piece?" until I read the threads about the fake vintage Aquadive watches (example here: http://forums.watchuseek.com/f74/fak...es-808213.html and here: http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...light=aquadive).

    It just goes to show that being obscure doesn't make it immune to the potential for deceit. Buyer beware for certain!
    Last edited by Ryeguy; 2nd May 2013 at 21:04.

  32. #32
    The triangle and other details of the internal bezel are clearly different on wabi'd vintage examples i have seen, which has always made me a bit skeptical as to what is exactly 'NOS' on these. Some high res pics of an excellent condition vintage one are here: http://hot-audemars-piguet-watches.w.../wiki/1789/823

    Also the dials do appear to have 2 tones of orange or yellow on vintage ones. I dont necessarily think these new ones are 'fake' but i dont think all parts are 'NOS' either
    Last edited by rasputin10; 2nd May 2013 at 21:16.

  33. #33
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    Funny to ascertain when responsibility starts and ends on something like this.

    For the current owner, a non-seller is now a real possibility. How does he describe it? No one knows if it's original, NOS or blag.

    I'd go off the original sales ad. If it was described as vintage, bought as vintage and it's not, then refund. Same for other options. Main thing is the current and previous owner are on the same wavelength.

  34. #34
    Master seffrican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michalko82 View Post
    Just to close the conversation....
    Was that a polite way of telling the rest of us to STFU?

  35. #35
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    Please can we keep this thread civil. Thanks.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by seffrican View Post
    Was that a polite way of telling the rest of us to STFU?
    if that's your explanation than be my guest and do so :))

    for others... I just thought that we can only speculate another few pages without a definite conclusion.
    I think its genuine but 'helped' to look NOS. Kind of Watchco re-builds.

    Great value for a watch which is not possible to buy new anymore.

    Give me a re-built Milsub for a grand any day...

  37. #37
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    I had a genuine 60s version of this watch, for about 6 years. I don't doubt that it is a genuine Fortis Marinemaster watch.

  38. #38
    Master pacifichrono's Avatar
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    A closer view of the cross-hatching on the crowns of my example, for what it's worth. Not sure if it would prove anything one way or another, though.


  39. #39
    Grand Master WORKSIMON's Avatar
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    http://http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=221215127296

    On my mobile just now so cannot see clearly but the above looks like a new dial ? He says in advert it is new.
    Cheers

    Simon



    Ralph Waldo Emerson: We ask for long life, but 'tis deep life, or noble moments that signify. Let the measure of time be spiritual, not mechanical.

  40. #40
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacifichrono View Post
    A closer view of the cross-hatching on the crowns of my example, for what it's worth. Not sure if it would prove anything one way or another, though.

    You're right, it is not proof of anything.
    I didn't want to infer that yours was dodgy in any way, but I think these crowns are not early compressor examples. I have been looking at these quite a lot lately as Lemania used EPSA cases for a few things and one in particuar I am considering buying.

    See here


    (Thanks for the borrowed photo Nick )

    The hatching on this Lemania SwAF crown (EPSA cased) covers the slightly convex area of the crown, and only stops at the chamfered edge of the crown at a change in direction. The change is clear from the discontinuity of reflected colour (all except the 10 to 2 region of the crown).

    Yours has no change in direction, the reflections are continuous.

    So when these were made up I assume (and clearly, I have no evidence either way) that new crowns were made to adorn the NOS cases. Which makes sense. A 40 year old crown would not seal at all.

    Dave

  41. #41
    Master Lampoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wookie View Post
    There was a seller on ebay who had about 6 to 8 of these exact models last year as well as loads of nos pocket watches and rolex buckles, the seller was in england, I bought a nos imado bracelet for one of my divers from him.
    I think the fortis watches sold for between 300 and 400 , I'll see if I can find the seller in my feedback
    wookie


    found him, it was treasurez_4u
    Here's a seller with form... I bought a new Titoni from treasurez_4u about a year ago. The moment I looked at it I know something was wrong - there were some minor imperfections on the dial and "sapphire" was spelled incorrectly on the case back. On opening it up I found it had a cheapo Chinese Hangzhou ETA clone inside. I let it drop as the seller was extremely apologetic and instantly gave me a full refund including postage costs.

    I always keep an eye out for Titonis on ebay and his "NOS" offerings appear rather frequently. They still look extremely suspect and I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by michalko82 View Post
    if that's your explanation than be my guest and do so :))

    for others... I just thought that we can only speculate another few pages without a definite conclusion.
    I think its genuine but 'helped' to look NOS. Kind of Watchco re-builds.

    Great value for a watch which is not possible to buy new anymore.

    Give me a re-built Milsub for a grand any day...
    Regarding your first line: don't put words in my mouth, please. I am curious as to why you would prefer to close discussion on the subject.

    The rest of your post is more helpful, but it seems possible there is still more information that could be adduced.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacifichrono View Post











    My one doesn't have the 'Stainless Marinemaster' on the caseback. The engraving is there.

  44. #44
    Craftsman Blueboy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crouchy View Post
    Well people, just got back from my local watch guy (lucky he is local) AGAIN - popped in this morning. After a little gentle persuasion he popped the back off (at my risk as he was scared to mark it), and...............

    Its all good, pictures to follow once photobucket sorts its life out. Perhaps its time to put the price up as the forummer that alerted me initially said it would be worth in the the region of £1k if genuine.

    Thanks to all, this is what TZ is all about.

    James



    That's great news, as I also have one and often wondered about their authenticity when I saw other similar watches for sale. I had a vintage one too but the dial was very faded.


    There was another manufacturer who made a very similar one but the name escapes me. I'll have to dig through the archives...

  45. #45
    Grand Master Daddelvirks's Avatar
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    This is how things should be settled, all in the spirit of this forum.

    Gives you the good feeling that trading and buying here is safe as houses!

    Daddel.
    Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!

  46. #46
    Master demer03's Avatar
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    Funny, but I've noticed there have been an aweful lot of these on eBay and the forums over the last year.....given that it's a vintage piece and all.

  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueboy1 View Post
    There was another manufacturer who made a very similar one but the name escapes me. I'll have to dig through the archives...
    Vulcain maybe?

  48. #48
    Craftsman
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post

    You're right, it is not proof of anything.
    I didn't want to infer that yours was dodgy in any way, but I think these crowns are not early compressor examples.
    The hatch pattern on the crowns looks laser engraved and I get the same vibe with 'Stainless Marinemaster' on the caseback.
    Last edited by Filip; 3rd May 2013 at 20:21.

  49. #49
    Craftsman Blueboy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin10 View Post
    Vulcain maybe?
    That's it - the Vulcain Nautical Cricket Alarm.

  50. #50
    Apprentice
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Uruguay
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    New to the forum

    Hello people; my name is Max and I found your forum while googling about "fake Marinemaster Fortis". Yep. I've been asking myself pretty much the same question as many of you: are these replicas??? (sorry for the huge wall of text below)

    I'm a sucker for vintage watches with internal rotating bezels and multiple crowns, I'm addicted to them, I don't care if it's a rubbish french watch with an EB movement in it, or if it's an Audemar Piguet: I like them all.

    So, since this Fortis is a handsome watch matching that criteria, I've been keeping an eye on them... I've noticed an awful lot of these for sale in the last year or two, but the thing that makes me curious is not the amount of them surfacing, but the people that sell them, the eBay sellers: most of these are showing up in Vietnam, Singapore, HongKong and Malaysia... that's not suspicious by itself, but...

    Being the watch psychopath that I am, when I see a watch that I like I always check the rest of the items of the seller, because I think to myself "If this guy has this watch, he might be selling a collection of similar watches" (while finger-crossing and hoping that he has 100 multiple-crown/pushers watches for sale - I bet you guys think the same, come on)

    So, while doing this, I've found that many of these Marinemasters are part of the inventory of sellers that are selling other suspicious vintage watches, some of them already confirmed to be fakes, like some sweet-looking Rado Diastar Divers (and a ton of other Rados), the OMAX Spaceman Audacieuse (and other Omaxes), Orient SK s, Orients King Divers of all sizes and colors, Omega Seamasters from the 60s and even some newly-invented vintage Seikos and Citizens that didn't even exist before.

    One of the most infamous eBay sellers doing this is "sophon_l". I recommend you check his inventory and do a Google search about that seller and the therm "fake" to read and learn some of the scams that these people run. In this thread I see you mention another eBay seller: treasurez_4u. I literally purchased over 100 watches from him (not kidding) without any problems. Talking to him, he once told me that he had a friend in Singapore that had a warehouse with 10s of 1000s of NOS watches of all kinds... I don't know, things happen, companies close, owners die, etc, and there might be a nice surplus of NOS jewels locked around the globe waiting to be found...

    There was an eBay seller called "thaigoodwill" that when I was an eBay n00b, took my money for a purchase of a lot of NOS Vostoks and dissapeared, he also had these Marinemasters on auction (he kept at least one listed for sale, constantly) and that was going to be my next purchase from him (I lost one of his auctions at something like 160 dollars!). The thing is that time later I recognized the same "style" of photography and the way to list the items in another thai seller (nicesdream), also selling a Marinemaster, so I sent him a message to which he responded that he wasn't thaigoodwill, that he was his friend... hmmmm

    Sometimes all this makes me think that there's a huge criminal organization making fakes out of everything, out of the least expected things, similar to what happens in latest Jackie Chan movie, Chinese Zodiac lol. (seriously, why make a fake of an old Citizen?!)


    So guys, knowing all this, more questions than answers, I wouldn't purchase any of these thinking that they're the real thing.

    Greetings from Uruguay!

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