Reply With QuoteCheersOriginally Posted by kungfugerbil
? Hope so!
Tim
Awesomely expensive too!
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Cheers
Tim
Would most of the expense of manufacturing a high specification Caribbean design diver like that be in the very highly "double domed" sapphire crystal this would require to match the shape of the original's relatively inexpensive acrylic crystal?
I ask because the Sinn 103 and 356 II military grade flight chronos were originally designed for highly domed "armoured" acrylic crystals that were preferred by the military for combat aviation as acrylic is tougher and more resilient against impacts as well as being much more resistant to shattering into eyesight endangering small sharp shards than sapphire or the mineral glasses. The military specification steel tension ring secured "armoured" acrylic crystals of these Sinn 103 St[Acrylic] and 356 II[Acrylic] models are also inherently resistant to the level of negative pressure conditions possible in aviation and space exploration, etc.,. Acrylic/Plexiglass crystals are also relatively inexpensive.
However, acrylic scratches very easily and that is what most commercial market watch buyers focus on, greatly raising demand for the relatively very brittle and sharp shard shattering prone, but nontheless comparatively unscratchable sapphire. To meet that commercial market demand, Sinn developed new manufacturing techniques to form the near diamond hard synthetic sapphire glasses into the same highly domed shape as the original domed and "armoured" acrylic crystals the 103 and 356 were designed for.
Sinn now offers, apparently successfully, the option of these look-a-like and scratch free sapphire crystals in their 103 St[Sa] and 356 II[Sa] models as an alternative to the easily surface scratched military specification "armoured" type acrylic crystals used in the original versions of their 103 St and 356 II models. The caveat, though, is that Sinn has to charge an average of 250 GBP to 280 GBP additional, as I calculate it at least, for the optional, and apparently very expensive to manufacture double-domed sapphire crystal alone, which I think works out to about a 20% to 25% increase in cost for the sapphire version compared to the same watch with acrylic. That is quite a bit.
The reason I thought a theoretical [Super]Smiths Caribbean type diver as above needed sapphire was not because I personally wanted it --- I very much do not and would far prefer acrylic myself. I think the watch would need sapphire because I assume it would not sell well without it because I do understand that most watch buyers hate seeing scratches on the face of their prized new watch. I think it's a shame, though, because it apparently becomes a "catch 22" of sorts in that if the watch is spec'ed for sapphire it would need to sell at a price point that was possibly too high to justify the project, and if it was spec'ed for acrylic at a significantly lower price point, it might not sell well enough to crystal scratch conscious buyers to justify the project that way iether.
I guess these are all interrelating manufacturing and market factors that Eddie has to carefully evaluate when considering any new project, and I very much respect that. I also think it might be something a lot of us miss as to what Eddie is up against. Like I mentioned at the beginning of the previous post, I think these 200 NOS ETA cal.2783 mov'ts will make any project Eddie decides to use them for very special for the small mechanical treasure the watches hold within.
I have to say, though, Eddie, I still personally wish those small mechanical treasures were going to be front loaded right within that Caribbean style [Super]Smiths! I think that would have been a neat one. Rollon
Last edited by Rollon; 21st April 2013 at 00:29. Reason: mispelling --- excuse me, misspelling
Isn't it supposed to be a divers watch though? Negative pressure won't be a problem there.
I also imagine the fancy crown assembly and front loading set up carry a bit of cost too. The decoupling stem set up alone necessary to make a front loader must be pricey. Maybe some additional assembly cost too? Not to mention the huge pain in the arse of servicing a front loader!
Hi Holio. I'll respond to each of your points as follows:
1.)"Isn't it supposed to be a divers watch though? Negative pressure won't be a problem there." HC
"I also imagine the .......... front loading set up carry a bit of cost too." HC
"Maybe some additional assembly cost too?" HC
"Not to mention the huge pain in the arse of servicing a front loader!" HC
"The decoupling stem set up alone necessary to make a front loader must be pricey." HC
----> The most extreme potential negative pressure conditions occuring in aviation and space travel are relatively minor compared to that which can occur in professional "saturation" or "He[lium] gas" diving. You may want to google up "saturation diving", "Comus" and "SeaDweller" for a quick tutorial on it if you're interested. The simple, sure, and easily maintained threaded steel collet screwed-down "flanged" crystal of the front loading Caribbian one-piece case design above and its alternative, the more expensive and much more complicated "helium escape valve" of the two-piece case Rolex SD both preclude the negative effects of any natural level of negative pressure a watch might be subjected to whether occuring in aviation, saturation diving, hyperbaric medicine and research, etc.,. Negative pressure conditions actually only relatively rarely occur to the point they will damage an ordinary watch, but if negative pressure conditions do occur, the aforementioned Caribbean and SeaDweller design watches won't be effected by it, while lower specification design watches can be.
Perhaps you were not yet aware of it, but Eddie's recently "sold out and discontinued" PRS-50 Precista models also used the Carribean type threaded steel collet screwed-down "flanged" crystal design and these were certainly very reasonably (and perhaps too reasonably) priced at less than 400 GBP, especially considering their excellent high specification design and manufacture. The original O&W "Caribbeans" were also very reasonably priced in their day for the extremely well designed and superlatively engineered watch the consumer received (which defines the term "high value for money").
Still, of course, superlative and advanced engineering and design always entails additional manufacturing tooling and assembly line setup costs which would and very much should be fully assessed into the product's end price so it depends on each potential buyer to subjectively ascertain whether it is worth it to him. For myself, I'd rather have one of these theoretical "Smiths Caribbean" divers from Timefactors than a 200 or more watch collection of mediocre design and specification diver watches from a plethora of makers regardless of price range. If other buyers feel otherwise, I completely understand and am respectful of their choice, but there is a watch industry world full of the latter to choose from. However, nobody I am aware of currently makes a diver with Caribbean class design and engineering (at any price), and I hope that I am not alone in preferring the better technology such a watch offers to the market.
Also, one of the Caribbean's advertised selling points at the time was that it was very simple to change the crystal by just dismounting the rotating bezel and unscrewing the threaded crystal retaining collet with the tool supplied --- it was about as simple as removing the screw-down caseback of the typical and ubiquitous two-piece case designs, but without the additional rear case opening requiring additional gasketing and extra maintenance. The only thing that has ever really justified to my mind your comment that front loaders are a "...huge pain in the arse..." to service was their formerly thought necessary resort to the notoriously weak and problematic two-piece crown stem design (which I think you meant to say by terming it a "decoupling [crown] stem" which I believe is usually used to denote a telescoping type crown stem, which is something else quite different)" to make full takedown of the one-piece case manageable. The reason for that is normal watch stems are easily released from behind the dial after removing the caseback, while front-loading one-piece "cabinet" cases have the dial in the way, blocking access to a normal crown stem's release. Perhaps you did not notice, or did not understand why I stated the following as I did in my first post on this thread:
Simply put, the "...small Seiko MM300 style crown stem release access hole cut into the edge of the dial [allows] the use of a highly maintainable standard (i.e. non two-piece) telescoping [crown] stem....", thus eluding very well the, I think, one single downside of using a front loading one-piece "Caribbean" style case. And that bleeds into the other of your concerns:
2.) "I also imagine the fancy crown assembly.......set up carry[s] a bit of cost too." HC
----> You'll notice in my quote from earlier above regarding "....allow the use of a highly maintainable, easily replaceable (and with generic parts readily and widely available) standard (i.e. non 2-piece) telescoping stem Rolex generic thread specification TripLock OysterCrown style screwed tube and crown unit......." that I mentioned the term "...generic thread....". That is my thought and request that Eddie cut the female threads of the hole in the case flank receiving the screwed-in crown tube with the exact same Rolex TripLock thread specifications as to size, count, and pitch in order to exactly fit the widely available Rolex specification high quality generic manufacture replacement OysterCrown tube/crown unit parts that are widely available the world over and fairly reasonably priced.
What you call "...fancy...." is what I call practical and maintainable. As long as Eddie just cuts the case's crown tube receiving hole threads to Rolex TripLock specifications then that is all that is required for the watch's owner to use the generic manufacture Rolex specifcation replacement parts in the future if necessary, for example, from accidently stripping the original crown and/or crown tube, which is something that happens and makes many owners nervous contemplating it. The Rolex TripLock OysterCrown design is also widely considered outstanding and I believe is still used to depth proof their circa 3,900m WR "Deep Sea" model. It is a very good crown and I believe solves the shortcomings of all or most other crown designs. And, by the way, if you were not yet aware of it, Eddie uses a Rolex type screwed-in crown tube design for his PRS-22 Speedbird III and his current version of the PRS-3 Precista diver (though I don't know if he currently cuts the threads of the case crown tube receiving holes to Rolex specifications) and these two watches are obviously very high in VFM and apparently very popular sellers also.
I'll finally, and perhaps preemptively, address something you did not include in your concerns, and that was my request for the anti-magnetic "Faraday Cage". Eddie has used that very desireable high specification feature in several of his mechanical movement watches including the PRS-14 Precista, the PRS-22 Speedbird III models, and the PRS-29 Smiths Military models. It's a good thing to have in today's world even for your "everyday" watch given the prevalence of sources of magnetism constantly around us or on us, as with cell phones, I think.
Basically, except for additionally upgrading to the, I think, better design front loading one-piece type case, most of the other specifications I requested for a theoretical "Smiths Caribbean" are technology Eddie has already successfully used in other Timefactors watches.
Respectfully, it makes sense to me, and I very much hope Eddie makes a watch like that someday if he thinks it could prove a fine future business and marketing success for Timefactors. Rollon
Last edited by Rollon; 24th April 2013 at 03:27. Reason: corrected miswording in third-from-end paragraph; added phrase "for example" to fourth-from-end paragraph
Hi rollon,
I did actually reword my original comment because my wording sounded like I was trying to be smart. And I wasn't.
Just making the point that your design suggestions would actually be more result in a much more expensive watch than the brief requires. The RN precista watch was issued to clearance divers, who dive to about 60m max as I understand it. I still don't see a negative pressure issue given the (presumed) design brief.
But you clearly know your s##t and have some great ideas for watch design, so why don't you take these specs to fricker or Kemmner and get a rollon special in the pipeline?
Last edited by holio cornolio; 24th April 2013 at 18:12.
It's going to be what it's going to be.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Hi. I did not think you were trying to be "smart", and to be honest, I'm always a bit surprised when anybody agrees with me about anything given the diversity of thought on subjects like this, so don't ever worry about disagreeing with me on anything either. I thought, and I still think, that the, what I consider, very special 200 NOS ETA cal.2783 vintage movements Eddie has found deserve a comprehensively well designed and highly specificationed vintage military grade recon diver type watch that is made to "screw the limits".
As to your implication that this thread's [rc quote] "...brief requires. ..." a focus of member discussion on the particular circa 1982 watch above you hope and/or assume it will be, I will very respectfully comply when Eddie issues that "brief" as I don't think he has as of yet. For myself, I'm still hoping this one is going to be based on another, I think, possibly 1982 vintage correct ETA 2783 containing watch Eddie himself owns and clearly and non-cryptically mentioned earlier in this thread --- the O&W Caribbean 1000.
And, finally, as this is not Bear Pit, if you don't tell me to go to Fricker or Kemmner for a "rollon special" up the pipeline, I won't tell you to go to hell. Deal? Rollon
Last edited by Rollon; 24th April 2013 at 20:29. Reason: added rc quote
Eh?
Eddie,
Respectfully understood. Rollon
Last edited by Rollon; 24th April 2013 at 20:52.
"Eh?" ?
Last edited by Rollon; 24th April 2013 at 21:14.
Ok you've clearly read something into that that wasn't intended. How about. You obviously know what you're talking about and have some great ideas for watch design. Why don't you use them to your advantage. There are plenty of case makers and assemblers that could make this happen to your exact specs?
And as you say, it would be quite a watch.
And I didn't say 'up the pipeline'. If that's what you read I'm not surprised you were offended, but whilst the wording is only slightly different, the inferences are worlds apart.
Holio, You indeed used the word "...in..." instead of the word "...up..." I deliberately and intentionally changed it to for, appropriately and accurately in my view, characterizing in highlight your underlying thought and then saying what I did in response because it is the same difference --- you are telling me to stop expressing my ideas here and go elsewhere instead of requesting Eddie to offer watch designs you don't care for him to offer. I for one am going to let Eddie decide what he chooses for his business to offer and I appreciate that he offers all of us here at TZ-UK, very much including you, the unique, very interesting, and, for me, very enjoyable opportunity to freely and directly express our ideas to him, as both owner and management of TF, as to what we would each personally like to see ultimately developed to fruition at Timefactors. Rollon
Oh ok. Thanks for telling me what I was thinking - (this comment is intended as a lightly sarcastic, but gentle verbal slap.)
Perhaps you were listening to the same radio show as me yesterday morning, where a chap was explaining, that having spent 15 years pursuing an unsatisfying career in marketing, he quit with no job to go to (I'm sure you weren't, as it was on bbc radio 4) Whilst he was pondering what to do next, and not getting anywhere he went on holiday. Still having no inspiration, he was sat drinking coffee at a cafe when he spied an old man, wearing ugly shoes. Thinking idly, he thought of several ways that he could simply and easily improve the aesthetic and comfort of the shoes, and then realised, that his whole life, his obsession had been shoes and sneakers, and why didn't he take his designs to someone that could make them happen? He has a very successful business now (a synopsis of the story, nothing to infer here)
The point I am making, is that, in life, some of us have ideas, and some of us don't. Judging by your posts, it seems you have a very specific and critical eye for the features that a good watch should have. What I'm saying, is, why don't YOU use them. (And by that, I don't mean go away, why would I? As I said, you have some nice ideas and you express them vividly, and if I had the cash, I would buy the watch you describe)
Finally. This is the Internet. We have never met, and never spoken. You don't know me, or how I speak or the kind of person I am. Please don't infer anything from this post, that is not specifically written, as you can't hear the inflections in my head as I type. I am not a combative or aggressive person, and I don't usually set out to upset someone for fun. I certainly don't think I have more right to be here than you, so put your handbag down, step back, put your prejudice aside and reread all my posts without the assumption that I think you're a c**t and should go away, and then tell me exactly which words I shouldn't have used. I will say no more.
Except apologies for the typos and grammatical horrors, as this was typed in something of a hurry, on an iPad, just before I leave for work.
Last edited by holio cornolio; 25th April 2013 at 08:36.
Well, to me you sound a really nice person and I would have been very pleased to receive the comments you originally made to Rollon. I too like his design. No pleasing some people is there!!
I..... Don't know if that's sarcasm.... (Honestly). Do I owe rollon an apology?Well, to me you sound a really nice person and I would have been very pleased to receive the comments you originally made to Rollon. I too like his design. No pleasing some people is there!!
Fortis used the ETA 2783 in its late 1960s/early 1970s "Marinemaster." When the company reissued the model in 2002 (I think), they installed leftover NOS 2783s, like in this example. Production of the movement ceased in the mid-1970s.
And mine..
Not in my opinion either, Holio. Sometimes when things start going where I don't know they're going, I've found for myself that it's often better to just stop talking until things shake out. I did not like everything you said nor the way you said it at the time, but no lasting problems whatsoever and thanks for the very nice compliments you worked in there.
One thing though, Holio, instead of going through all this again next time, you could always just profusely and vociferously AGREE with me, you know. [[by the way,THAT is being facetious]] Rollon
Last edited by Rollon; 2nd May 2013 at 04:37.
..experiencing those hands will be worth the cost alone.. Have you decided if the crystal will be a plexi or sapphire?
Cheers,
Konrad
... and what do we want?
Still recon its got to be the 82 diver though the Caribbean still seems to be on quite a few wish lists?
Time for a poll to put it beyond doubt?
If it is the 82 diver will the case spec/bezel be the same as the original?
Aaaaaggggghhhh - the suspense.......!!!!!
Let's face it, both the Precista RN82 or the O&W Caribbean are sensationally attractive watches. Either would be a big win. My money's on it being the 82 as well, although every time I see a profile shot of the O&W a little part of me hopes that I'm wrong ;-)
I've decided to make them into cufflinks instead.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Even better!
I will be laying a patio this summer. Any chance I could snag a few to use as hardcore?
count me in for that one.....search overThis one?
"This one " is very nice
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Hmmm... Let's see
Eddie
20mm Lugs
47.9 or 48mm lug to lug
13.8 mm thick
3mm domed crystal
Plenty of WR
Super large crown
Drilled lugs
Asymmetric case
Yes, looking excellent. I think Kunfugerbil may be on the right lines.
David
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
I so hope im fast enough to get one if kungfubill is correct as that's a very clean looking watch. So how quickly do these pieces of eddies tend to sell out... When a stash isn't found during stock check a while later!
Any idea of pricing and how many will be made?
Also when should these be available so I can get my grubby mitts on one?
200 pieces, Rolex price and towards the back end of the year.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
NUmber 4 for me please Eddie!, deposit when needed.
(well, somebody had to start the list!!)
Mike
Well if there is a list then I am interested in owning one too. Any number will be fine.
Well, event though there will most likely be no list and I have never done this before
I would go for number 7 ;-)
Only problem now is, there are just too many watches I would like and non of them are available yet (or in other cases anymore)
Need to fix my desire to get a new watch soon, it's just itching me too much
Is it possible to see some mock ups of what the proposed watch is to look like, since people are already putting in their orders!
Just to stop a bombardment of "can I reserve number.... etc" (I've already tried) this is the reply I received from Eddie which is pretty self explanatory:
"This one is quite a long way off Phil and there is no list, I haven’t done lists since 2006. The last list I did was for 100 pieces and all 100 were reserved before the launch but when the watch was launched, only 43 people took up their reservations."
Pretty obvious why Eddie doesn't want to start a list - wonder who the 57 shirkers were!
Well said... these threads get really messed up with 'I want number xxx'. I prefer it when we have news from Eddie and then we put in our ideas / hopes / dreams, etc etc...
Please someone sticky this to the top of the forum! The Dreadnought GMT thread is mad :-)
The bevelled edged domed sapphire looks good; it doesn’t compromise the original design.
Will there be a bracelet?
Fortis used the ETA 2783 in its late 1960s/early 1970s "Marinemaster." When the company reissued the model in 2002 (I think), they installed leftover NOS 2783s, like in this example. Production of the movement ceased in the mid-1970s.
I don't like the dial but that case is really smart. Looks great with the mesh
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Loving that :)
That looks great!
Very nice Eddie!
Hell Yes!!!
Eddie
So Eddie makes the statement above and I decide I'm not interested. Then, posts the drawings and the artwork and I'm having to reconsider. What does one get for a kidney these days?
Not a big fan of the aged lume, but otherwise really like that.
Dave E
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day
The actual lume isn't that colour.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
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