What would YOU accept as accuracy when buying a brand new COSC watch?

[Orange Peel]

Hi,

I know it seems a bit daft as we all know the COSC parameters (-4 to +6 per 24hrs).

However what is within COSC and what we would personally and more importantly knowingly accept when buying a brand new COSC watch could be a different matter.

For example and as a trigger for this post, I recently spoke to an AD about buying a brand new, still in wrapping/stickers Omega SMP 300 cereamic in black.
Now I have owned one of these before as well as many other COSC Omegas and other COSC other brands.
The ceramic uses the "D" suffix 2500 Coaxial movement as opposed to the older "C" suffix and, if anything should be more accurate or at least as accurate as the "C"?
I have also owned a few COSC SMP 2254.50's with the 1120 movement.
All of these without exception have run from the box at between +/- 2 to 3 seconds per 24 hours and more typically +/- 1 to 2 seconds.
I suppose I have come to think of this "well within" COSC accuracy as the "norm" and to be typically expected rather than only if you were lucky?

I recently recieved a new SMP Ceramic from an online dealer which ran at +7 per day for 4 days running in all sorts of positions (crown up, down, face up down and even on a winder). Not on the wrist though as I had not yet sized it.
I ended up sending it back for a refund as I expect far better from a COSC certified watch costing well over £2,100.

I decided to see if the local AD would do a decent deal, which he would and to see what his stock was running at regarding accuracy?
The local AD kindly offered to bench test several of his SMP Ceramic in stock after setting with the atomic clock and reported to me that all 4 were running at about +5 per 24 hours. (Only tested dial up not in any other positions)
I am now deciding of I can (and should have to) live with this after many years of expecting far better, especially from a brand new watch with a supposedly technically superior movement?

We all have COSC watches that run "only just" within but would you knowingly buy one, brand new that ran at "just within" COSC specs?

Do they "settle down" after being worn a while to achieve better or not?

Perhaps it's just me, I admit to be very fussy both on condition and accuracy.

Anyway what do you reckon?

Neil.

[cyrusir]

Hi,

I know it seems a bit daft as we all know the COSC parameters (-4 to +6 per 24hrs).

However what is within COSC and what we would personally and more importantly knowingly accept when buying a brand new COSC watch could be a different matter.

For example and as a trigger for this post, I recently spoke to an AD about buying a brand new, still in wrapping/stickers Omega SMP 300 cereamic in black.
Now I have owned one of these before as well as many other COSC Omegas and other COSC other brands.
The ceramic uses the "D" suffix 2500 Coaxial movement as opposed to the older "C" suffix and, if anything should be more accurate or at least as accurate as the "C"?
I have also owned a few COSC SMP 2254.50's with the 1120 movement.
All of these without exception have run from the box at between +/- 2 to 3 seconds per 24 hours and more typically +/- 1 to 2 seconds.
I suppose I have come to think of this "well within" COSC accuracy as the "norm" and to be typically expected rather than only if you were lucky?

I recently recieved a new SMP Ceramic from an online dealer which ran at +7 per day for 4 days running in all sorts of positions (crown up, down, face up down and even on a winder). Not on the wrist though as I had not yet sized it.
I ended up sending it back for a refund as I expect far better from a COSC certified watch costing well over £2,100.

I decided to see if the local AD would do a decent deal, which he would and to see what his stock was running at regarding accuracy?
The local AD kindly offered to bench test several of his SMP Ceramic in stock after setting with the atomic clock and reported to me that all 4 were running at about +5 per 24 hours. (Only tested dial up not in any other positions)
I am now deciding of I can (and should have to) live with this after many years of expecting far better, especially from a brand new watch with a supposedly technically superior movement?

We all have COSC watches that run "only just" within but would you knowingly buy one, brand new that ran at "just within" COSC specs?

Do they "settle down" after being worn a while to achieve better or not?

Perhaps it's just me, I admit to be very fussy both on condition and accuracy.

Anyway what do you reckon?

Neil.

what do i reckon?

i reckon life is too short, once a watch performs reasonably against my phone or whatever other digital device i check the time against i dont really bother checking accuracy per 24 hours as chances are i will have put something else on within a day or two.

i am also amazed at your repeated ability to convince yourself to buy a brand new version of a watch that you have already owned and think that this time it will be the one, but i dont mind because you take a great pic Neil and the arrival threads are worth a read

[CardShark]

If I was buying a brand new certified watch I'd expect it to be within the parameters and nothing else. Obviously the closer to absolutely accuracy the better but personally I still find it quite amazing that a small and purely mechanical device could be regulated to such a high percentage accuracy in the first place. If it wasn't running within spec I'd do as you did, but anywhere within spec and I'd be happy.

[bigbaddes]

anything modern that cant be regulated to a few seconds a day is just jewellery imho.
pointless pretending cosc is anything more than marketing when a cheap seiko can easily be regulated to a couple of seconds a day.

[gray]

Reading your post is the most time I've spent even thinking about accuracy in years...

Buying new I would expect the watch to perform within manufacturer specifications, if that's COSC then that's what I expect... however, what I want is different. What I want is a watch that gains 2 seconds a day based on my wearing patterns - this allows a little deviation in a quality movement. If buying new and easy access to service technicians means I can pop in and get it regulated to my taste under warranty, then brilliant - other than that and I learn to live with it, forget about it and set my watch when I set the date, change watches or it otherwise becomes a noticeable difference - ie a few minutes out - until it's due a service.

[Huertecilla]

anything modern that cant be regulated to a few seconds a day is just jewellery imho.
pointless pretending cosc is anything more than marketing when a cheap seiko can easily be regulated to a couple of seconds a day.

A cheap Seiko, heck; a 12 Euro Casio!! comes within a couple of seconds per mónth!

Everything costing more is at least part accessory. Call it life style, image, taste, fashion, jewelry, whatever.
Anything mechanical is because you want something extra and accept it not being state of the art as a time keeping instrument.

COSC is a level of specification of accuracy of the movement when it was tested. It is NOT a guarantee that is performs within these specs in the watch at the time of sale. You may expect it to be and you can probably insist to the AD on it running within these specs but that is it.
If you expéct your watch to run more accurately than -4 to +6 per 24hrs, you would best opt for a caliber with a more exact oscilator.
Yes, you can go Grand Seiko Special which is specced a lot sharper, but like any mechanical chronometer that will need to be adjusted regularly too if you expect it to be at its best.

To put it in objective perspective; there is a COSC for quartz calibers too. Would you demand a quartz COSC to be wáy more accurate than specced too?
A watch with a balance spring oscilator is nót a modern time keeping instrument and is needlessly expensive. Buying a mechanical COSC one means it has óther added value for you so being picky about it being very much more accurate than it is specced to be is a bit of a contradiction in terms.

[Malcolm68]

Reading your post is the most time I've spent even thinking about accuracy in years...

Buying new I would expect the watch to perform within manufacturer specifications, if that's COSC then that's what I expect... however, what I want is different. What I want is a watch that gains 2 seconds a day based on my wearing patterns - this allows a little deviation in a quality movement. If buying new and easy access to service technicians means I can pop in and get it regulated to my taste under warranty, then brilliant - other than that and I learn to live with it, forget about it and set my watch when I set the date, change watches or it otherwise becomes a noticeable difference - ie a few minutes out - until it's due a service.

This pretty much sums me up as well.

I put a post up last night about the accuracy of my 61 Speedy but that was only because I happened to check it when I was swapping watches and I was pretty amazed at how accurate a 50 year plus watch was.

Generally, I'll just check them when I put them on my wrist or change the date.

Malc

[Daddelvirks]

I'd take them to court.........................

Daddel.

[tim2012]

I have to say, anything within 1 minute each day is acceptable, or within COSC limits if certified. This is because I rotate my watches and will set the time a few times a week on different ones. If there is only one that will be completely different!

[Mr Tetley]

I would accept anything that is within the specs. I have actually found that a watch will be more accurate if I am wearing it rather that letting it rest in one position for 24hrs. That's just my limited experience though.

I suppose its better to test over a few days though and then take the average.

[Neil.C]

Reading your post, this mech thing seems a bit too draining to you Neil.

Do yourself a favour and buy a quartz, your worries will be over.

That's what I would do.

[lysanderxiii]

Mean daily rate - +6, -4 s/d
Mean variation in rate - 2 s/d
Greatest variation in rate 5 s/d
Difference between vertical and horizontal rates - +8 to -6 s/d
Greatest difference in rate - 10 s/d
Variation in rate due to temperature - +/- 0.6 s/d
Resumption on rate +/- 5 s/d

That is for a movement greater that 20 mm, of course....

[Yunsung]

I would expect exaclty as it says on the tin. So if they say within COSC then that means -/+ 4/6. If its not 6 seconds, then its still within the limits which means its doing its job

[dkpw]

Reading your post, this mech thing seems a bit too draining to you Neil.
Do yourself a favour and buy a quartz, your worries will be over.
That's what I would do.

From Neil's post (the OP) I was going to suggest a similar quartz based purchase, but then there's HAQ and non-HAQ...

I'll freely admit that I like an accurate mechanical and enjoy measuring their accuracy. Like Gray +2 is my preference, as I can set it 15 seconds slow and know that I'm within my "tolerance" for the next two weeks, my Sub runs at this rate. But if a new COSC watch was at +5 or +7 I'd be fine with it and not send it back - 7 seconds a day is still 99.99190% accurate.

[RobDad]

I prefer a watch to run fast - but within Cosc is as advertised - within Cosc.
Every watch I've had seems to vary over the years anyway - my Sub was gaining 5 or 6 seconds a day after 5 years of daily wear, having gained about 2 secs a day when new. Now it's gaining about half a second a day following a service.

[stix]

Reading your post, this mech thing seems a bit too draining to you Neil.

Do yourself a favour and buy a quartz, your worries will be over.

That's what I would do.

Or a Spring Drive.

[mindforge]

I can see how you could get obsessive about accuracy, but then why not learn how to regulate yourself?

[Loquacious]

I bought a 114060 new from an AD on the 26th of November. In the first five days it lost 11 seconds and I was disappointed... a bit. Now after solidly wearing it for three months it has lost exactly 90 seconds in 92 days including that initial five day period. It has never been corrected as I really wanted to see what it would do. So overall it has settled at about a second a day and I am well pleased.

i think in actual fact it is now running at under a second a day loss, and this is more than acceptable for me. but, it just shows that watches do settle in over the first few months of wearing.

[omega]

I feel the same as you Neil about COSC accuracy considering how much watches that are COSC cost .

I have a seiko sumo - 5s to 7s per day. £400

Omega planet ocean chronograph -3s per day. £3080

Not sure when i will buy my next watch but i would like the next to be better then the best i already have ,a big ask so i'm in no rush to go out and buy a new watch.

In the ideal world 1s per day would be fantastic and more then likely unrealistic ,but i live in hope .

[CafeRacer]

I personally think that a COSC certificate is like the equivalent of a MOT certificate for your motorbike or car. Which in my simple mind means that the day the MOT was issued, the vehicle in question fulfilled all the obligatory requirements. Of course the very next day ater the MOT was issued what if one of the tyres deflates or an indicator bulb blows? Your vehicle still has a valid MOT for the next day plus the next 364 days but the vehicle would fail another MOT if it had to take it again .............................

The COSC certificate is issued purely against the movement. I'm sure it could be many months or even a year or two after the movement is certified that the watch itself is eventually sold via a dealer to a customer.....................

[adzman808]

my most expensive watch that's cosc runs at av. +1.5 spd and my cheapest (std 2824) runs at about +2 spd

not sure that means for the OP, but i'm happy with that!!

I guess i'm glad the cosc is a bit better

[jur]

Anything.
I have to set my cosc every week but actually I'm glad to have the chance to play with it (-:

[Huertecilla]

Or a Spring Drive.

That uses a non tc basic quartz cristal oscilator so if you go thére, then better go for tc and enjoy 10 or 5 secs/year as specced accuracy.

[walkerwek1958]

Whilst many people would be happy with a watch that ran consistently at +5/day, I think Neil's raised a very valid point. Omega are charging stupid money for these watches and, basically, if they want to run with the big dogs they'd better start barking louder and pissing higher.

I`ve serviced vintage Omegas and sent them out doing better than this! OK, they didn`t have the positional precision that a new watch would have, but on the wrist they performed better than +5 secs/day and I`ve worn them to prove it before sending them out! Provided the watch is in good condition and running well (as a new watch undoubtedly is), it's all down to going the extra mile and getting the regulation correct.

I won`t touch Rolexes, not even my own. I`ve had a couple serviced by Bill Rice and they've run at between 0 and +2 secs/day consistently. Like I say, it's all down to putting a bit more effort into regulating the things. Bill does it, I do it........why can`t the manufacturers do it.

If I was to buy a new Omega I`d insist on having it regulated after 3 months if I wasn`t happy; that would be part of the deal for me. Despite the technical excellence of the watches (that I don`t dispute) and the pseudo-shrines that they sell the watches from (aka boutiques), their attention to detail and quality is not good enough. Every watch they sell should be running +/- 2 secs/day at the extreme, and the majority should be +/- 1 sec.

We've seen all the bullshit with the new image , the higher prices, the boutiques, the restriction on parts supply..........so why can`t they commit to making their overpriced products do what they're claimed to do....which is tell the time accurately!

rant over

Paul

[Huertecilla]

Agaín I don´t understand the finger pointing at Omega.
There are several brands selling same spec. perfomance automated mass produced mechanicals with less warranty and shorter service intervals for more money.

Sure enough the COSC spec is 40 y.o. good enough; a jóke, but that is a point of critisism for the Swiss luxury manufacturers.
Buyers should indeed demand better accuracy as it is ludicrous that 40 years of development and shockingly inflated prices have not pushed the standards.
Demand it of áll the culprits though.
Oh and demand too that all catch up with Omega on warranty and service.

[HappyJack]

My non-COSC Lemania 5100 runs at around 3-4 secs in 10 days - our under half a second per day. That's after my spending some time tracking the rate, and taking it back to the watchmaker a couple of times for regulation. My 10 year old Speedy Pro runs around +6 sec/day consistently - so it could be adjusted to run better than that. If I were buying new I'd want to be between -1 to +3; why not ask the dealer if he'll agree to regulate it without charge based on your actual rate whilst wearing it?