Reply With QuoteIt's bent.
If you have to ask once then you need an eye test.
I have a UTS chronograph that has just returned from a full service. Here is the watch in question.
Can anyone spot any issues at all based solely on the photo's? The reason why I am asking is that Herr Spinner stated to me that (and I quote), "99 out of 100 people would not even notice it".
Take a look.
Last edited by j111dja; 29th November 2012 at 16:49.
It's bent.
If you have to ask once then you need an eye test.
How has he managed to bend the seconds hand?
Bent, but simple to adjust... so why wasn't it?
bent.
and that would do my head in to the point of making it unwearable.
(sorry to be such a ray of sunshine)
I think you should tell Herr Spinner that 99 people out of 100 would most definitely notice this....
Alex
I have just spent €380 on a full service and this is how it was sent back. This was his response prior to me shipping it back over to Germany (and I quote):
"99 out of 100 people would not even notice it".
" The thin and long stop second hand however can also bend by itself. Hot and cold temperature cause such small deformation. It can also go up and down not only to left and right. From what I see from your pictures , the bending to the left is very minor and I must say it will be probably still within the tolerances".
Obviously, I am not happy.
He has the watch at present and he now states that (quote), the "chrono second is not under warrenty".
His next responses (quote):
"I got the Chrono. And I must say , the stop second is nearly perfect. The straightness can not be better even when I replace the hand. You have to look very close and long and with a magnifier to even see the very light curve. I guess the deviation is less than 0,03mm. I showed to watch to one of my watchmakers and he did not see anything . After I told him that the stop second is "bended" it took also a while before he could even see it. I really do not know what to do or what you expect. As I said , I can change the hand , but it will probably not be of any difference. The stop second hand has a width of 0,15mm at the center and less than 0,1mm at the point and this with a length of 15mm. So which tolerance in straightness you think is still okay for such a slim hand ? A few tousands of a millimeter ? If I change the hand , how can I be sure you will then be happy ? The next chrono stop hand will maybe have the same tolerance in straightness and due to manual setting and adjustment these smallest tolerance can never be adjusted completly".
"As I said , there are tolerances and I can not guarantee that another stop hand for the chrono will be different at all ! If I can not make you happy because your experiences are above the technical possibilities what can I do ?
I see no chance that anything will change. Each opening of the watchcase and each manipulation at the movement will not make it better but will only make it worser. The stop hand is perfectly set , it points exactly to 12 hours when it is reset. When the stop hand and the minute hand are over eachother you also see that the much smaller stop hand is exactly in the middle. It is also straight within the tolerances of few hundred`s of a millimeter. Everything is fine and just normal. I am afraid I can not fulfill your demand. What I can do , I can send you one of the stop hands from my stock. You can contact any watchmaker in your neighborhood and ask this expert to change the hands at your UTS Chrono.
Comments please as I am not happy at all.
Last edited by j111dja; 10th November 2012 at 17:15.
I did Alex. This was my response. "I obviously disagree with you that 99% of people would not even notice it. That is unfair and unproven".Originally Posted by alexandr0s
Send the guy a link to this thread... I'm sure our responses will help "adjust" his attitude. I'd be super pee'd off about this myself... All he's done is show himself up by not repairing with no hassle.
I sold a Speedbird GMT with a similarly bent seconds hand and I didn't notice it but the customer did. It was changed under guarantee.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
With an attitude like that I will certainly be crossing Herr Spinners watches off my wanted list, that's for sure.
Very poor service from what I've always thought of as a good, and somewhat different German tool watch manufacturer. Shame.
Hope you get some resolution to this issue.
It's definitely bent. I guess this would also affect the accuracy of the chronograph as a time measuring device. I would have thought that the time it took Herr Spinner to compose his e-mails might have been better employed replacing the hand. Also not sure what happened to the 'customer is always right'.
my comments would be change the hand and quit quoting sizes.
0.15, 0.1, 0.5 mm.. whatever.. it wouldnt make a difference on a car or something.. but on a small and intricate machine.. like a watch for example.. the amount of deviance is irrelevant.. and if something is out of line.. its very, immediately noticeable
I'll second this. God only knows how much time and effort he's put into composing this response (and shirking his responsibility), but he probably could have fixed the issue in half that time. Not only that, his assertions are completely wrong.
He says "...the stop second is nearly perfect. The straightness can not be better even when I replace the hand." Bull hockey. The hand is obviously bent. All he needs to do is replace it. His response is that of a lazy, dishonest person.
Then, he says "...The stop hand is perfectly set , it points exactly to 12 hours when it is reset." It quite obviously is NOT centered on the 12 o'clock marker.
Hi Dave - it's certainly bent. Do you have any pics of the dial from directly above? The foreshortening in the pics makes it look worse than it is (although there will be plenty of times when you'll be looking at the watch from that angle...)
But after you've dropped nearly 400 Euros on a service, it's unforgivable for the manufacturer to quibble. The customer is right, and he needs to pay up and look big.
Thanks for the comments for far.
UTS have the watch at present and I don't have any other photo's at present Walter.
The problem appears as pronounced as my photo's suggest, even when viewing the dial from the top via the naked eye. I spotted this issue as soon as I took the plastic off the watch but I am one of only 100 people that supposedly would have noticed that!
They have got to change that for you.
Very poor customer service , not at all what you would expect.
Hope you get it sorted Dave.
Ouch! *GROANS*
To state that the chrono second is not under warranty is irrelevant. I presume that it wasn't bent prior to it being serviced, therefore it was damaged whilst being serviced which makes it his responsibility. I can't believe he is even disputing the problem. Their customer service policy sounds appalling and this should highlight to everybody on the forum that this company should be avoided.
Nearly perfect? What's that supposed to mean? He should remove it, fit a perfect one and stop procrastinating.
the bent hand is one thing, but just denying that it is an issue is even worse. hope you get things sorted to your satisfaction.
Good luck everybody. Have a good one.
As stated definitely not acceptable - id recommend pointing him in the direction of this forum of potential customers
As for having to look with a magnifier to see the bend its pretty obvious with a photo and those dims sound like he's pulled them out of his arse, i dont think anyone can look at something and say thats about 3 hundreds of a mm. 0.1 mm maybe, 0.03 no
Shocking service. His response is utterly disgusting.
I hope you make sure he reads this..
Hope it gets sorted out to your satisfaction!
i've had quite a few UTS watches and always liked them. Ive never sent one in for service as ive always flipped them before they've needed it, but i did once ask Herr Spinner if i could buy a PVD lug to replace one i had scratched and his response was that UTS dont do PVD anymore. Not exactly helpful when id heard that his service was supposed to be exceptional! This has left me less of a fanboi at the moment. hope he sorts it.
UTS prides itself on precision watchmaking so the reaction is very disappointing.
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
Poor guy this Mr. Spinner! His eyesight must be way off:-)
It would take him such a small amount of time to correct his error, but he chooses to give you the song and dance treatment instead:-( Glad I sold my UTS 1000m diver, so I don't have to run into him.
Not acceptable. Maybe his explanation is technically sound but you don't treat a customer that way. You have every right to be pissed off.
I honestly don't understand why people choose to behave like this.
If, instead, he had replaced the faulty part and said "apologies Dave, it was our fault and we corrected it, and here's a little something [a strap for example] to make up for your trouble", the result would have been:
a) he would have a very happy customer,
b) this happy customer would sing UTS's praises
c) the total cost to him would have been negligible
I am often simply dumbfounded by how bad at running a business some people are....
Alex
I own a UTS and have spoken with Herr Spinner a few times and have found him very helpful and professional , but i have only spoke to him about buying his watches and not with a problem .
Have been negotiating with him for a new UTS4000 Diver but i may not bother now !!??
Seriously WTF customer service.
Rob.
So much for German Engineering. I don't want to be cynical, but German Engineering is a big issue on the UTS homepage. I wonder: other brands like (e.g.) Sinn, Damasko etc., do they suffer from a bend hand? And I wonder: why is there no warranty on the second hand? Is it stated in the manual when you bought the watch? Is it on the back of the invoice when you got the watch back from UTS? If not, then there's a proper EU consumer protection law!
It's clear he doesn't want a proper solution. So, why don't you help UTS a little... keep posting this picture and this story on various forums. It will be high on the Google list, just below the UTS site itself. Not really what you want as a manufacturer...
Menno
Dave, no arguments here, you are totally right to be pissed off about this.
Spinner shouldn't have a discussion with you, but just replace it and say sorry.
End of story.
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Never admit you're wrong, appears to be his motto. What a way to damage your brand.
I've wanted an uts before.
Now i don't.
Seems the right answer.
The argument from Herr Spinner is surely not. Of course there are tolerances with any manufactured item, and it may indeed be impossible to get things perfect. But a response like that is really only justifiable (and even then questionably so) when the customer is back for the third replacement hand because the last two weren't nearly perfect enough. At that time, a manufacturer should be taking a much closer look at their operation and tolerances to ensure the customer hasn't found a problem with the operation.
The customer isn't always right. Good service is treating the customer fairly and with respect and accepting that a little expenditure when things are marginal is a good investment.
It's not easy to argue with a German, especially in terms of engineering, their default position will always be they know better than you.Never admit you're wrong, appears to be his motto. What a way to damage your brand
I hope it gets sorted out soon.
Because the bent hand was so obviously wrong, I presumed it was a red herring and there must be something else wrong.
The UTS guy is full of it and could have resolved this without making his company appear quite so shockingly bad at customer service.
It is a lovely watch though - I wouldn't want to risk this type of treatment though (and have to pay for the privalege of it at the same time!)
Dave, let me get this right. The watch is currently with him as you sent it back and he doesnt want to replace it even though he can see a problem? On the basis that others may be the same as there are tolerances involved?
Pardon me for being a bit thick, but couldnt he just go and look at others he has and replace it, how difficult could that be??
I think saying he will send you a hand and you can get your watchy to fit it is taking an almighty liberty. Would certainly make me not want to consider UTS if their customer service is this shoddy.
Good luck, hope you get it sorted.
380 euro's and that is what you get?
Ridiculous.
Cheers,
Neil.
"probably still within the tolerances".
How does that work then does the same attitude apply to whats inside. Arrogance springs to mind.
paul.
I would also not accept his estimates as gospel, estimates that are clearly intended to belittle the fault.
By simply using a ruler on my screen it is clear that if I line up the inner half of the hand, the wrong side of the hand emerges before the end, so the deviation is at least as much as the thickness of the hand (which he reckons is 0.15mm, not his estimated bend of 0.03mm).
If it was fine before, I cannot see any reason why this should cost you anything to replace, and I am a little surprised they are quibbling.
Dave
I hope Herr Spinner reads this thread and sorts something out. It's just not acceptable and I know he's lost at least one potential buyer.
Thanks for all the comments so far.
The watch is currently with Mr. Spinner as I sent it back after the service because of the bent chronograph second hand.
I sent Mr. Spinner the following email yesterday, and I quote:
"DEAR Mr. Spinner,
Can you please send me some macro photographs of the chronograph hand in its current position?
In over 30 years of collecting watches and advising online for 13 years, I have never experienced anything like this before. I sent you a macro photo clearly showing the chronograph hand that is slightly bent. I have spoke to several experts in the field and all said that this hand should be perfectly straight. All I am asking you is to change a hand. Why make everything so complicated? All I want is some decent customer service".
This was Mr. Spinner's response (and I quote):
Dear Mr. Adams ,
to which experts you spoke ? To one or several on the forums ? Forget these "experts" , go to the next jewellry shop or watchmaker and ask him to inspec the dial. I bet he will not find anything wrong. If you tell him to look very close to the chrono stop hand and use a magnifier he will maybe see what you see. But any skilled watchmaker will also tell you that there is nothing wrong with this hand and all is within the tolerances. Without an magnifier you can not see anything. With marco zoom or 10-20 times magnification you can see on each item something. The longer you sit and check under a magnifier the more you will see. It is a matter what is normal and within the technical spec and what is beyond. Anyway if I change the stop hand, nothing will change , the difference to the actual situation will probably not be visible. And then you will tell me that I have not fixed what you want to be fixed. Or you will say that something else is not okay and we start over again to fix something else . It will be endless and I am worried you will never be happy and satisfied. I can return the watch and add a chrono stop hand so you can ask any expert to change it for you. Nothing is complicated.
Best Regards
Nicolaus Spinner
He then followed up with the following email including these two photo's (quote):
Dear Mr. Adams ,
see enclosed a top view picture of the Chrono and tell me if the chrono stop hand is okay or not.
Best Regards
Nicolaus Spinner
You cannot see the issue so easily when both hour and minute hands are placed under the chronograph hand, but the issue is clearly visible via the second photograph.
Here was my response via email (quote):
"Dear Mr. Spinner,
I got both photo's. The second photo has the hand in question less noticeable because both hour and minute hands are underneath this hand. The first photo clearly shows the issue as the hand is clearly bent.
Instead of all these long drawn out emails, why don't you concentrate on some customer service and actually replacing said hand as you said you would. I will be 100% happy if you kept to your promises. If the hand is changed, I want photographic proof please. I do not want the watch sent back as I sent it. If not then I will take matters further and speak with my lawyer.
I think you should go to tz-uk.com and go on to the Watch Talk Forum. This is the UK's largest watch forum. You can then read the consensus of the forum members about this issue. Comments include the thoughts via Eddie Platts, the forum owner and manufacturer of several watch brands.
Regards,
David"
I await his response.
Last edited by j111dja; 11th November 2012 at 12:48.
I don't get the guy at all; I wouldn't class myself as a watchmaker at all - I tinker for the fun of it mostly - but I would be embarrassed to hand someone a watch like that... especially when the fix would take 5 minutes!
The guy is permanently stuck in "never admit anything" mode. It does not help the OP unfortunately, but it's a warning to others.
I have never been treated like this in over 30 years of collecting. I am very disappointed and so frustrated about the whole situation. Where is the customer service Mr. Spinner?
Herr Spinner is looking like Herr Spanner for engaging in an electronic battle with a customer. Shouldn't be a big deal to go ahead and do the deed at a very small cost. But threatening with a lawyer and using the comments of a watch forum and owner is equally bad form.
Crack the case, remove the crown stem, shake the movement loose and out, bend the hand, reverse the steps, enjoy the watch.
One to scratch off even considering buying. Sounds like an arrogant tw4t to me who will not admit that someones made a mistake while servicing the watch.
Sorry can't look at the photos without my OCD kicking in.
Could not live with that and cannot believe the poor customer service.Never mind about losing one customer he could end up losing hundreds.
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