Reply With QuoteFor me, the mid-/late-90s was a fantastic period of F1, a lot of it because of Mika Hakkinen - he always took it to the ragged edge and often proved crazily fast. Great character too, always sporting that mischievous grin :D
When I say 'greatest', I don't necessarily mean those who won the most races. I mean those who are your personal favourites. Those who you preferred to watch for whatever reason.
You might consider their driving skill, driving style, their knowledge, or their character. For example, I've always found Michael Schumacher to be too clinical to be engaging.
Anyway, following a discussion I had at the weekend with a few friends, I was surprised to find that there wasn't much common ground between us.
There was general agreement that Senna was in the mix somewhere (though I'm sure some of you think otherwise) but beyond that, there were a variety of suggestions. We stuck to racers rather than rallyers to make comparisons easier.
Anyway, although mine were heavily influenced by how much I liked to watch them drive, I may also have been influenced by iconic cars such as the Ferrari 312T, the Lotus 98T and the McLaren M26. :)
1. Gilles Villeneuve.
For his courage in difficult cars.
2. Ayrton Senna.
For his peerless control.
3. James Hunt.
For his character and larger-than-life approach.
For me, the mid-/late-90s was a fantastic period of F1, a lot of it because of Mika Hakkinen - he always took it to the ragged edge and often proved crazily fast. Great character too, always sporting that mischievous grin :D
Senna is always number 1 for me - blindingly fast and completely fearless in what ever he drove. Who is not amazed about his first drive in Monaco!
Mansell - hugely exciting, with a bit of luck he would have been a triple world champion - very few people ever drove with such heart, commitment and skill as he did and it was at a time when rival F1 drivers were superb (see Prost, Senna, Piquet etc).
Hawthorn a completely committed driver who took it to the competition and won. Only ever drove flat out and never wanted to be beaten by the Germans which ultimately lead to his death. Le Mans and F1 winner speaks for itself.
Fangio and Jim Clark - both were outstanding talents and could / should also be in the top 3, especially when you consider what they drove, the risks, the commitment and their beautifully fluid driving styles.
Walter Rohl is just outside my top 3. Sadly we never found out just how good Stefan Bellof could have been. Perhaps it's churlish not to mention Loeb too.
Jean Alesi - let passion rule his head
Showing my age here but my 3 for consideration are
1 Jim Clark
A class act, both in and out of a car
OP did not restrict choice to F1 so
2 Colin Macrae
For his "Trophy or Tree" approach to rallying
Better not pick another Scot :wink: so-
3 Lennart Blomqvist
Because he is The Stig.
In F1 my other choices would have been Ronnie Petersen, Mario Andretti. Ayrton Senna et al and
Rallying - Ari , Roger, Hannu, Walter , Henri et al and Per Eklund. How Stig and Per got those nose-heavy Saabs to perform the way they did is beyond me
I know his inconcistencies and off track distractions have hampered him, but I think Lewis has the pottential to go down as one of the greats if he triumphs over the next few years, I love his style and that his uses every inch of the track
Obviously from the legends of yesteryear, Mansell and Senna take some beating not to mention Schumacher but I never liked schumachers stlye either. He was a born winner in my opinion, not a born driver as such, and would take any route of cheat to ensure he won ratrher then let his driving do the talking
As far as pure entertainment goes, Kobayashi takes some beating :D
It has to be Villeneuve for me. I saw that guy carry certain Ferraris round on his back. Senna too. In his early years I saw him at Brands Hatch tyre testing. The way he kept blipping the throttle on the early turbo cars through the downhill corner at the end of the straight (Paddock?), was scary. In fact those 1.5 litre cars were crazy. The noise coming out of Piquet's Brabham in qualifying trim just shook you to the bone. If I remember rightly they could produce 1500 HP with enormous turbo boost and were like a bomb, just this side of exploding. It all seems much more sophisticated these days and probably a lot safer.
I was always a big fan of Mika too, he was fantastic in qualifying. Watching him, he didn't seem to be pushing the car, but the clock said pole position.Originally Posted by GraniteQuarry
Jim Clark - such a wonderful natural talent, a more reliable Lotus and he would have had at least three or four titles to his name
Stirling Moss - for me his Mille Miglia drive in 1955 is one of the finest ever
Fangio - Five titles in the 50s when drivers were being killed on a very regular basis
Mika Hakkinen and Michael Schumacher in Japan in 2000 (I think) when they were qualifying within thousands of each other. One would set a lap and the other would go out to beat it. And then the race on the Sunday where it was nip and tuck. They were so far ahead of the rest of the field it was wonderful to watch. Two giants. While I don't consider them in the same vein as the above, I think it was one of the finest battles I've seen in 30 years of watching F1.
I'm going to offer up a variety of drivers:
Juan Manuel Fangio - Stirling Moss says he's the best so I'll go with him on that
Stirling Moss - he could drive almost anything and win
Jim Clark - ditto
Richard Petty - won more NASCAR races than anyone else
David Pearson - the only person who could regularly compete with Richard Petty
Ayrton Senna - probably the best driver I've seen race, although I was never a fan
Michael Schumacher - probably the second best driver I've seen race, although I'm not a fan either
Sebastien Loeb - 8 consecutive World Rally champions plus a good sports car racer
Allan McNish. I've seen him at Le Mans over the years and he does things with those Audis you wouldn't believe, I also interviewed him once and a ten minute slot lasted an hour and a half. I liked Takuma Sato, he once drove me round Rockingham in an MX5. He'd not driven one before and his car control was unbelievable. Ben Collins brought me most of the way back from Le Mans one wet Sunday night. The car broke just outside Calais but he took every corner and roundabout a gear or two higher than I would have done and hardly moved the steering wheel or pedals. No, they're not your Hakkinens and Fangios of motor racing but all thoroughly nice chaps and excellent drivers. I've been driven by a few other drivers (Jean Ragnotti in a Clio V6 was memorable, Derek Bell, Guy Smith and so on) but I'll stick with McNish, Sato and Collins.
"A man of little significance"
Hmmm. Tricky one.
Formula 1 drivers: well, anybody competing at that level has car control skills on a different level to us mere mortals anyway, but I'd nominate those who could take an F1 car and drive it beyond what the car wanted, so over the decades I think that Juan-Manuel Fangio, Jim Clark, Gilles Villeneuve, Ronnie Peterson, Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso could all get a result from a car which was above and beyond what anybody else could achieve with the same equipment.
Another great favourite of mine was James Hunt, for his attitude to racing, and in fact the whole Hesketh team, for bringing a breath of fresh air to Grand Prix racing.
Outside of single-seaters, and probably my all-time favourite racing driver, a man who could drive anything, and often did so sideways, a man who once, when leading a race by a considerable margin, pitted and waited for the rest to catch up, so that he could have a dice before pulling away again majestically to win as he pleased. The late, and very great Gerry Marshall. Larger than life in all respects, and one of the greatest characters ever to grace the circuits of Great Britain.
Oh. And James Weaver. Another driver who never achieved the rewards that his talent deserved. Likewise, Roger Williamson. I could go on (and on......)
Regards
Ian
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
I've not heard that phrase before - really sums it up for me what racing is about. :)
In fact, that is the factor I was trying to articulate (but not doing so very well). It's what makes naturally gifted drivers appeal to me. Regardless of the machinery they drive, the track they're on, the conditions on the day or the importance of the race, they were prepared to put their body on the line.
To a certain extent, that's what appealed to me about Colin Chapman, too. He built cars to last the race duration and no longer. That's why they were so fragile. I always think of his cars as those dragonflies that circle round shady areas of rivers in the country. They're beautiful to watch as they change direction with amazing stability yet they're so light and agile.
Sorry - getting a little bit carried away there. :D
PS
GQ, Mika is right up there isn't he. Unassuming yet according to Micky S, the one driver he respected the most. funkstar your Hawthorn selection is one my Father made - that was his number one driver IIRC. Foxy, your Derek Bell selection is one I wish I'd made and Ian, your Gerry Marshall selection is an inspired choice too. The manner of the latter's sad departure from this life says it all - he pulled his car over during a race, and simply slowed to a halt.
There are a lot of greats when it comes to F1, but Graham Hill is my favourite. A true Brit, twice world champion and all that, but what a character and what a gentleman.
Good question, in no particular order:
Ari Vatanen i remember watch Rallying from an early age and my sat me down to watch 'The vatanen Touch' on video (remember them?). Watching his feet dance on the pedals was hypnotic. I also liked his dry sense of humour and his fearless approach.
Klaus Ludwig I lived in Germany for a few years in the early 90's and, as a fan of touring car racing, spent a lot of time following the DTM up and down the country. I was lucky enough to meet and get to know quite a few of the drivers and nearly all were great drivers and characters (apart from Ralph who had a chip on his shoulder the size of Belgium). Of these, Klaus Ludwig knew me by name and always made time to talk as i walked through the pits even interrupting a TV news interview as i walked past. A great driver and a really nice bloke.
John Cleland Maybe not the most successful but must be one of the most passionate and tenacious of any motorsport discipline. He was the underdog that i rooted for and was so pleased when he won. Really nice bloke as well by all accounts.
Richard Burns Criminally underated, i admired him for his tenacity and will be sorely missed.
You are all wrong (IMHO)....
Tazio Nuvolari - greatest driver of a motor car ever to grace this planet.
I truly believe that he would have been great in whatever era he drove. There is little doubt that he was peerless at the time.
Cheers,
By all accounts JJ Lehto exhibited astonishing skill, courage and pure ability when we took a McLaren F1 to a Le Mans victory in the rain ahead of the prototypes. Apparently that year he drove like a man possessed, no one got near him in the rain, not even the other F1s.
No particular order:
Jackie Stewart
Parnelli Jones
Willie T. Ribs
Dick Trickle
With regards motorsport, I’m primarily interested in F1 – so I’ll limit what I say to that field.
When it comes to greatest, it’s almost impossible to compare across generations.
By my reckoning (highly subjective of course!) each decade would be as follows;
* 1950s: Juan Manuel Fangio
* 1960s: Jim Clark
* 1970s: Niki Lauda
* 1980s / Early 1990s: Alain Prost / Ayrton Senna
* 1990s / Early 2000s: Michael Schumacher
* Present day: Difficult, but Fernando Alonso appears the most complete driver on the grid
My favourite driver from the above would have to be Ayrton Senna for his style and explicit passion – he was also “the” driver as I was getting into F1.
However, if I had to pick one driver out of the above as the “greatest”, it would be Jim Clark. I say this for a few reasons:
1). His ability to drive and win in any type of car.
2). Records including highest percentage of laps led in a season, the most “Grand Slams” (taking pole, fastest lap, race win and leading every lap of the race in 8 races) and running third only to Ascari and Fangio with regards percentage wins during his F1 career.
3). Most importantly, though, is the sheer reverence with which great drivers from Clark’s own generation still speak of him. I have never heard drivers from Fangio’s, Lauda’s, Prost’s/Senna’s or Schumacher’s generation speak of them and their talents in the same way people like Jackie Stewart or others from the 1960s speak of Jim Clark. I think this says the most about both his driving skill and him as a person and presents the biggest argument in his favour as to being the greatest F1 driver of all time.
I still say Nuvolari - as does Murray Walker, and he's seen them all!
From an interview in 2007:
Cheers,'I don't think it's possible to say who was the greatest because, over a long period of time, there have been different drivers in different cars on different circuits racing to different regulations. I can tell you who, in my opinion, are the greatest of their era, like Schumacher. I can give you a personal opinion on who I think was the greatest of all time: Tazio Nuvolari. I have a statuette of him in my study. I have a model of his Auto Union that I saw him win the 1938 Donington Grand Prix in. I have a specially commissioned painting of him.
'For me Nuvolari is the greatest. Somebody who thinks that Fangio is the greatest can produce a raft of reasons, probably based on statistics, but you can't argue it because Nuvolari never raced Fangio. But by the same token Stirling Moss is one of the all-time greatest because of what he did, the time he did it, the number of times he did it. The fact that now, 45 years after his career-terminating crash at Goodwood in 1962, everybody knows about it and he is still Stirling Moss the racing driver is quite incredible.'
Talking F1
Senna/Prost: They are equal for me, I grew up watching them and they were day and night. Great rivalry. Prost was the professed whilst Senna the magician.
Out of today's F1 lot I think Alonso has the potential to do great things.
Anybody mention Surtees yet? Great on two and four wheels.
Good shout. I have watched the following video clip many times and it still makes me wince when he guides the wayward Opel through the cattle grid. You know you've done something extraordinary when your co-driver says, "dear god" :shock:
Skip to about 1:25 if you don't want to watch it all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R7ws741KpE
Oh, and the Pikes Peak video isn't too shabby either. This really makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKgeCQGu_ug
:lol:
What always strikes me about rallying, and particularly back in the day, is the amount of effort required to keep an unyielding, barely drivable pig of a saloon/coupe going in straight line :D
Having had a play on an estate road rally section in a classic escort, I conclude that I don't have the necessary minerals or skill to do that in anger :albino:
Absolutely stunning - particularly the bit around 3:20 where the Sun hits his eyes and he's forced to drive one-handed. :shock:
Brilliant, and only just noticed the top comment on the video - "The car weighs 20% less without the testicles" :lol:
I know it's amazing isn't it. Earlier in that clip the wheel is barely straight.
Brilliant that bit. Very casually done as if he's tootling down the A41 on a Sunday afternoon drive 8)
For me Aryton Senna is the best driver that was ever out there (altough a bit before my time, unfortunately)
What a great shout! He was indeed a very large character (and man). On an evening out, I remember he'd drink beer in half pint glasses but, my word, did they ever look lost in his hands and couldn't he get through them? But, what a driver! It was his racing partner, Tony Lanfranchi, who taught me to drive on a track many years ago (early eighties). Sadly, both died within a gnat's whisker of each other (2004 and 2005). Both are greatly missed!
My favourite ever has to be Senna. The man was absolutely fearless! I remember reading in his autobiography about a passenger of his in a road car. He said he would go into corners at speeds other drivers wouldn't even contemplate and when he questioned why/how he did that, he replied by saying he just sorts it all out whilst in the corner.
However, I never did warm to Mansell. I thought he used to sing his own praises rather too much. I remember my ex bro-in-law buying me his autobiography by mistake one year. Within the first page or so, he wrote something along the lines of "in the late 80s, there were only four aces in Formula One. Piquet, Prost, Senna and myself". At that stage, I put the book down and never picked it up again.
Aryton Senna.......best natural driver ever
Keke Rosberg........brilliant to watch
James Hunt...........kahoonies in a wheelbarrow
michael schumacher...........people can argue all they want, he will always be statisticaly the best driver
Schumacher's stats certainly can't be argued with. The only question is whether it would have been so if Senna's steering column hadn't have failed so tragically at Imola in 94 :cry:
Toivonen and Vatenen for me from rallying, F1, Kimi and Irvine for the sheer don't give a damn attitude, yet still do very well, thank you.
Would have liked to have seen Tommy Byrne in a real F1 car. Someone with his prior record should have been given a chance, not matter what their image was like.
Bikes - Joey Dunlop and Casey Stoner.
Tommy Byrne had an F1 test with McLaren as a result of winning the British F3 title. He took it upon himself to tell Ron Dennis exactly what he felt were the car's shortcomings, and as a result never sat in an F1 car again. Byrne was an arrogant prick, and his own worst enemy.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
spent 1/2 hour as Richhard Attwoods passenger on a Porsche day back in 1990
(he was Porsches first LeMans winner in the iconic 917)
the finesse with which he wrang out a 944 turbo was utterly awe-inspiring, still makes me tingle now! He's an absolute gent with it.
Goat
There are many obvious champions.
I think Markku Alén is the obvious one for being one of the best ever and not a champ.
He was up at the top with an amazing variety of wildly differing cars.
Alén in the Lancia Rally 037 was awesome.
He still holds the record number of wins; NOT Loeb and was a great character famous for his ´now maximum attack´ and hárd driving.
In 2010 it was hé who was hired by the Montezemolo to snow test the Ferrari 458.
Here is some 2012 footage of him doing exactly that in the FF
I didn't realise Luca had him doing that kind of thing. Lovely sound and wonderful to see him in four-wheel drift mode. 8)
But he was fast. That should have counted for something.
This is a very subjective topic, but if you are old enough to remember him, Jimmy Clark was the best. His stats would have been even more incredible if he'd driven a marque that didn't have so many DNFs.
Stirling Moss is the sentimental favorite since he could squeeze more out of a car than any man alive.
Saw this the other day and thought it was worth sharing.
Also, wondered if any of the current drivers would make your shortlist, as this thread is now the best part of a decade old.
Is super subjective but I think Villeneuve was the fastest driver in F1 history and by some way. Not the best tactical racer though. That’s still probably Schumacher or Prost.
Hamilton is right up there no doubt, maybe Alonso, but the rest not really.
I think the best drivers in terms of car control tend to be in rallying, and Loeb, McRae, Kankunnen etc would beat most F1 racers in most varieties of car.
By most metrics, Lewis is now ahead since we started this thread.
Kimi proved to have considerable endurance, and of course our hopes are that Schumacher's recovery improves.
For those wondering, the oldest race winner was 53, and the oldest race entrant was 55. There's still time.
I’m not a fan of who’s the all time greatest lists. Could the modern generation cope with manual gearbox’s, no electronics and crazy engines ?
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I guess my list is dictated by my age somewhat but I would say Schumacher and Senna.
But if we can throw in the otherworldly car control of Rallying legends I would add in: Colin McRea, Juha Khankunen, Carlos Sainz snr, Tommi makinen & Sebastien Loeb.
Many of the obvious candidates already listed.
While I was too young for Jim Clark, I do remember being particularly hard hit by Ronnie Peterson's death, he was definitely a world champ in waiting (there's a strong argument he would have been the year he died, but for Andretti's no 1 position in the team).
Stefan Bellof (who has been mentioned) really was a stunning talent - I recall seeing him race in an F2 race at Thruxton and his speed was phenomenal - Perhaps a little too much like Gilles Villeneuve, though, in that he didn't know where the limit was. With Villeneuve, I always felt a big, bad accident was coming one day, sadly I was right.
I was always a big fan of Jacques Lafitte - Not a stand out star driver, but always fast enough to challenge even when in a less than ultra-competitive car.
Ricardo Patrese was a decent, but not stellar, F1 driver, but he was great to watch in a Group C (or a Group 5 or 6 for that matter) Lancia.
Another driver who excelled in a sportscar was Jonathan Palmer - A lot of people forget he was a champion in F3, F2 and F1 (albeit the non-Turbo champion), not to be sniffed at, and he was always wickedly fast in a Porsche 956/962.
In latter years, I always felt it rather sad that Adam Carroll never made it to F1. He was fast enough to beat the richly backed Hamilton in F3 at times and showed well in F3000 at times, but somehow when he got a break it was in a poorly funded or prepared car or for a one off race. He could have been a very good GP driver with the right breaks, I always felt. Damon Hill got lucky after a similar struggle to break into F1 and he became champion - It's just how the luck falls sometimes.
Hamilton is clearly a very gifted driver, with the right equipment that he makes the most of (and that's not always a given!), but I find it hard to really warm to him.
Schumacher was a great driver, but he didn't understand sportsmanship (I hate to say it, but there are other examples of German drivers and teams winning at any cost) and that always scored against him in my mind. I do find it very sad how he's ended up, though.
M
Last edited by snowman; 16th November 2021 at 16:32.
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Yes, Villeneuve was almost constantly over the limit. I've just noticed that in some turns, he seems to put on opposite lock almost before or at the same time as giving it a bootful.
Usual MO is turn in, apex, then opp lock in response to the back end stepping out. But above, it seems to be pre-emptive. It's a bit of a flamboyant approach and possibly why I find his driving more engaging. Presumably if he doesn't get it to step out he's steering straight on into the wall. Or would end up in a Scandinavian flick of some kind.
Also, oversteer is slow. I get the feeling he just enjoyed it. Neater is usually quicker and wins championships.
Funding is a key thing. I remember reading Mansell's biography and I think he had remortgaged and had broken his back. Very tough decisions and no doubt some gifted drivers did not go all in when in such a position.
Walter Rohl in the early Quattro days was amazing to watch too.
Cheers..
Jase
Rally drivers are amazing - Anyone who drove a Group B car at the top level is a brilliant driver to my mind and the current cars are mind-bendingly fast.
I always admire drivers (like Rohrl) who can switch motorsport disciplines, Tony Pond was another great rally driver (hamstrung by his dedication to British marques) who excelled on the track, too.
Drivers like Marc Duez, Stephan Sarazzin and Vic Elford likewise.
M
Last edited by snowman; 16th November 2021 at 17:00.
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Amazed nobody’s mentioned Richard Hammond.
Ari Vatannen....fabulous
watch at 1.58>
Totally agree. The best of all time in my opinion too.
I can't see past Jim Clark as the best of all time, and many F1 champions rank him similarly.
Might sound Nationalistic, but I also place Jackie Stewart well up there.
The Top Gear tribute to Jim Clark was pretty revealing and well worth a watch to see just what Jimmy raced and won in, in a year.
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