Love that video, even better it was an Opel Manta, god knows what the outcome would have been had he hit that yellow gate post or whatever it was..Originally Posted by TKH
Hammond!
I think May might be quicker but hides it well. He v-maxed the Bugatti without making a big fuss.
Superb.
Thanks for posting that.
I found this footage (below). What struck me is that although they both do close the door on each other, there is quite a lot of respect given and received. Unlike say between Hill and Schumacher.
Being a Finn I do like my Finnish drivers. Keke Rosberg was my childhood favourite, a proper character. Kimi Räikkönen has a great attitude and his sense of humour seems to click with mine. I think Marcus Grönholm deserves a mention as well. This iconic Grönholm moment is almost a national treasure:
Ari Vatanen has indirectly given me some of the worst scares of my life. In the late 80’s several cab drivers in southern Europe, especially in Greece, would get excited upon hearing that I hail from Finland.
”Aaaaah, ARRRI VATANEN!” they would shout and then proceed to drive like utter maniacs in an effort to prove that their driving skills are on par with Vatanen. I nearly s*** myself a couple of times.
Last edited by Possu; 17th November 2021 at 07:49. Reason: Edited to add the video
^It's so refreshing that Kimi is himself and not some media puppet.
His quiet strength and sense of humour goes a long way.
That French GP is legend! That was from an era before the top drivers became devious twats.
Senna, Prost, Schumacher to name but a few ...............Fast drivers, but great sportsmen............. nope.
^Yes, there is no way such a long and aggressive battle would occur between some rivals - someone would be punted off in short order.
By the way, I had no idea that Clark did so much in 1965. F1, F2 (x 2 series!), and the Indy 500 as well as tin top racing. He won them all.
This thread is predominantly for 4 wheels but I'd like to nominate Joey Dunlop. 26 TT wins at all classes from 125cc to 1000cc is an incredible achievement.
^Shame I can't edit the thread title as it would be good to include riders as well.
I know nothing about bikes so it would be good to know roughly if there is an equivalent of these drivers:
-Lewis: most successful
-Senna: best control
-Clark: career cut short which might have lead to him being most successful of all time
-Villeneuve: most talented or rides in a way that makes things harder for himself and still wins
^The above are all just my opinion by the way.
Mike Hailwood
Giacomo Agostini
Freddy Spencer
Michael Doohan
And of course Valentino Rossi.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
John Surtees, the only man to win to win world championships on both two and four wheels.
Nobody will ever equal that will they?
Cheers,
Neil.
Colin McRae, used to love watching him..... We also share the same surname. Obviously I'm an epic driver as well (not).
https://youtu.be/u9Xx_L0Rhjw
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Didn't know too much about these fantastic riders but there are some amazing videos on YouTube.
In interviews he appears humble as well - a big tick in my book.
Ahhhh yes. And the video games in his name were superb for the time.
Johnny Cecotto came closest.
I would also like to nominate Toni Mang.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
^Amazing - had no idea Toni Mang was a five-time world champion.
This thread has been a bit of an eye-opener as to my ignorance and also just how many riders and drivers have achieved incredible periods of sustained performance.
Always liked Mika Hakkinen, but I think Martin Brundle, summed it up and he was a team mate of both.
"If Michael Schumacher and Mika Hakkinen were in the same Formula One team, with the same equipment, during qualifying, in the dry, and you asked me to stake my kids' building society accounts on who would bag the pole, I'd put my money on Mika. But Michael would win the race."
That's a very interesting quote.
It gets to the centre of this question of 'greatest'.
So being quickest isn't necessarily greatest.
And I know that Villeneuve was probably not capable of a sustained championship campaign without allowing himself to burn off excess talent in lurid (and wonderfully magical) over-driving.
So talent doesn't necessarily mean greatest either.
What does?
I think Lewis has the clearest claim to being the greatest winner.
But it's interesting to wonder what would happen if the grid was composed of the same cars with the same engines and all drivers were at the peak of their powers.
I didn't know that Mika was quicker in qualy than Michael, for example.
Last edited by AlphaOmega; 19th November 2021 at 12:20.
Consistent winning?
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
This is highly personal, I think. In my case it always comes down to the untangible entertainment factor. Schumacher was one of the best drivers, but I never enjoyed watching him race. Michael Jackson was a very talented musician but I never liked his music. Christiano Ronaldo is perhaps the best footballer ever but I don’t find watching him play entertaining. For me a lot comes down to affability and charisma.
Yes, any other criteria is secondary.
Lewis is number one. Michael second and Fangio third.
My gut feel is that is how it would play out if the three of them were to race together at their peak.
Even this is flawed. Neither Lewis nor Michael would stand a chance against Fangio in a car from his era; Likewise, JMF wouldn't know what all those buttons on the steering wheel are for.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
^Yes, I hadn't thought of that.
A lot of reference books keep the drivers in their era. Best of the 50s, 60s, 70s etc.
Perhaps that is a better approach.
I found Hill and Schumacher's battles less engaging at the time. As both drivers aged, I began to understand them a little more. I think Hill in particular had less of an easy ride than might be assumed considering his Father's success.
I'll second that
I loved watching him power the rear wheels into a "managed" oversteering slide in long corners.
And that was in the dry.
Didn't give him any advantage, of course - but he seemed to do it for kicks.
I'd imagine it took quite a bit of skill, to keep it under control.
And then do the same thing at the next bend.
A top man.
More recently I'd say Mr Hamilton.
He's had to fight very hard for his success.
Against the authorities favouring other teams (usually in red !) cheating rivals, bizarre mechanical failures, obviously biased penalties (during, and even after, races)
And each time, he just gets his head straight and gets back in the game.
The most professional driver I've seen since Schumacher.
And he doesn't have to cheat to win.
Just my $.02 worth.
Last edited by Joyce; 19th November 2021 at 14:09.
(Quite) a few years ago there was another spectacular French driver called Jean-Pierre Jarier. His French nickname was "Godasses de Plomb" (Leaded soles).
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Rossi is the GOAT, not only for his ability to ride a bike but the way he transformed the sport and his personality. The rossi vs lorezno final lap battle in Spain a few years back was just epic.
Hard to not mentioned Marc Marquez, I don't like him much but you cant deny his ability to ride a bike at crazy speeds especially around corners!
If you bring up Marquez, I will raise you a Max.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
And let's spare a moment to think just how good 'Stefan Bellof' was and what he could have achieved before his sad departure..
Yes, that is a very good point.
His Green Hell lap stood for how many years? Hang on, I'll check. 35 years.
I think that is the argument for Clark as well. If we assume all drivers make it to an old age, how many more championships might he have won? Too many variables to make it anything more than idle chat, I suppose.
It's purely idle chat to be honest, but sure we have to "talk" about something.
Sometimes, in F1, it's about being in the right place at the right time.
In many F1 seasons, all things being equal re. strategies, tyres, luck etc. etc. only one car was ever likely to win, which meant the "great" driver was only racing his team mate, and usually that didn't even happen because the team forbid it. Maybe the guy who finished fourth had driven much better than the guy who won easily. eg Schumacher could "squeeze" a performance from a car that was not going well.
In many races where overtaking was near impossible, the pit stop strategy decided the winner. I am sure there were world championships decided on guessing what time it was going to rain.
Qualification against a team m8 is probably a half decent barometer of something, as obviously Schumacher was better than Irvine, Hakkinnen better than Coulthard etc etc.
It's only a bit of amusement because ultimately it's nonsense to guess if Hakkinnen would beat Hamilton, if Borg would beat Federer, if Tyson would beat Foreman etc etc.
Best driver of all time is Vettel. He won 4 F1 championships in a row and it was nothing to do with the car being faster than all the others, honest.
I find it hard to consider if a 1967 driver is more or less skilful than a modern day driver. Is a sliding, snarling beast on cross ply tyres harder to control than a modern sticky, yet twitchy rocket demanding instant reflexes? I’m a bit in awe of them all having done a far bit of tepid track driving myself.
There are a whole bunch of forgotten heroes too. My own fave is Justin Wilson, a 6’4” guy who squeezed into his cars and was consistently fast. Sadly lost early in IndyCar due to an accident. But not before he expertly coached me round Bedford in an Audi TT on a Jonathan Palmer day and helped me set the fastest time of the day. I think those personal memories are what cloud us when analysing this.
Almost all of the driver memories that have stayed with me over the years aren't to do with winning.
This scene especially means a lot to me. It looks like Lewis is hugging Senna.
Or it's where there is an amazing battle for a few seconds on track, like this:
There have also been some terrible accidents. It's difficult to believe how amateur the safety was in F1 but Purley (an ex-Para) - for this act alone - is among those who I consider to be the greatest.
Warning - please do not watch this if you are easily distressed. I thought long and hard about whether I should or shouldn't link the footage but hopefully most of you know about it anyway. I'm happy to remove it if the general opinion is not to have it in the G&D.
Almost all of the driver memories that have stayed with me over the years aren't to do with winning.
This scene especially means a lot to me. It looks like Lewis is hugging Senna.
Or it's where there is an amazing battle for a few seconds on track, like this:
There have also been some terrible accidents. It's difficult to believe how amateur the safety was in F1 but Purley is on my list just for his actions following a crash (edit - I was going to embed the video but I think on reflection those who want to watch it can find it).
Last edited by AlphaOmega; 20th November 2021 at 10:13.
Ayrton senna for me
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Probably not one of the greatest drivers but certainly a great one, and a very pleasant person to boot: Jacky Ickx
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Whilst those in F1 get the limelight it's those in the WRC that really impress me. The speed and car control is incredible. And little run-off if you get it wrong.
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I recently heard Michelle Mouton get interviewed for a Sky Documentary - Queen of speed - out now, I haven't seen it yet but should be good, I was of course aware of her and how good she was, but didn't know she was a very close second in the 1981 WRC.
Cheers..
Jase
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