Reply With QuoteAll men are equal in competitive cycling !
And drugs are a part of the deal
Lance Armstrong the god of cycling has been charged with doping offences.
He was the most tested man in the world when he was competing and they kept all the samples.
He is denying the charges and it's the US anti doping agency that has brought the charges.
I hope he is innocent but you never know.
All men are equal in competitive cycling !
And drugs are a part of the deal
RIAC
He most definitely was (in my personal opinion and that of others competing that I have spoken to) using a variety of substances that were on the banned list, for most people - there are exceptions to the rules for some illnesses and conditions, perhaps LA's therapy included some of these substances :?:
It's just a matter of time...
Originally Posted by 100thmonkey
It was a sad state of affairs though that what they're asked to do and the level they're competing at means they need to do stuff like this, blood transfers and so on, it's the most demanding sport on the planet when they do a tour, and the levels they're having to go up to is unbelievable.
I have to admit though, i love the tours, and it's the only sport where whenever i hear of a 'drug cheat' i actually sympathise, these guys know the risk, they know it's cutting down their life, but they do it to compete, it's not the same as a 100 metre runner or weightlifter.
Nope, it was always used as a theory that his cancer actually helped his career, due to the change in weight, body and so on, and in any sport, the banned list is the banned list, even if you have hayfever or a cold, you take something on the list and you get banned, look at the Alain Baxter losing his olympic medal for taking a hit of vicks!
Why :?
I'm hoping it isn't true, the positive message that his recovery from cancer and subsequent tour wins sent out to young sportspeople will be totally destroyed. Does seem odd that this has arisen now, so long after the most intensive testing period of his life.
Has to be the most tested athlete in cycling.. and being accused is nothing new.
INterested to know the sources of those who've said he's a well known doper!
I'd be surprised if he's found guilty... not because I don't think he doped, but so much time has passed and frankly I'm not sure what it would achieve...
Say he's found guilty and stripped of his 7 TdF victories. Who get's the award? Take 2000 for example:
1st Lance Armstrong
2nd Jan Ullrich (banned in Operation Puerto)
3rd Joseba Beloki (implicated in Operation Puerto but never charged)
4th Christophe Moreau (tested postive for steroids)
5th Roberto Heras (tested positive for EPO)
6th Richard Virenque (banned after Festina)
You could go back to the 50's and probably not find a winner that's beyond reproach. I know rules have changed and suchlike, but I wonder whether efforts might be better off spent trying to catch current dopers rather than this, which seems like a bit of a witch-hunt...
I'm not sure competitive tour cycling will ever have a clean reputation. Despite the apologists and sympathisers, anywhere that cheating is so rife and so much effort is spent on creating agents to hide banned substances just doesn't ring true as a competitive sport.
I guess part of the question is whether doping is seen as rife in pro-cycling because there are (or at least, were) so many people and teams cheating or whether it is one of the few sports which has genuinely made an effort to crack down on it and has aired it's dirty washing in public.
There is no doubt that during the 80's and 90's, doping was not only accepted within the sport, but actively encouraged and managed by some teams. At least now there are teams who are going far beyond what's legally required to prove that their riders are clean.
There will always be the odd rider who dopes, but by driving out the teams, management and 'doctors' that facilitate it, the sport will continue to improve its reputation. I'm fully in favour of second chances for dopers, provided they give up the people who are behind it.
It's not something that died in the 80's and 90's... look at the cases from the last 3 years alone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_do ... cling#2012
My favourite from this year is the (amateur) cyclist who was found to have twelve banned substances in him on a single test :lol:
It is good that more is being done by the teams and governing bodies, but when you still have many cases every year including those at the very top of the sport, it's always going to leave a sour taste. I honestly don't know what they can do to win back the trust :?
will never be proven
That's what Contador said :lol:will never be proven
Reading his book when I was having my cancer treatments was really helpful.His coming back from the type of cancer he had and then winning the Tour was amazing.Given the amount of drugs pumped into you while you go through all the levels of therapy I'd be surprised if your metabolism is ever the same again and so if he gave some odd test results it wouldn't be too unexpected. :)
Related to the above, I think if they strip him of the titles, Ullrich becomes a three time winner! The whole thing is pointless, I think he did dope, with a lot of others.....
This all shows that people (and some organisations) bear grudges for a very long time.
Sad really
B
If they have had this "proof" for so long why just charge him now?
If they have had this "proof" for so long why just charge him now?
They have the samples - but some of the test they now have didn't exist even 5 years ago. It is difficult as you can only really test a sample so many times, so you really need something quite concrete before you go ahead - it isn't like giving two samples and one being positive at the time, so they test the 2nd - we are talking years later.
I am convinced LA would have been given drugs as part of his rehab that would be on the band list - how long they may have had an effect is another thing. Hyperplasia is for life, so he would have a benefit if he trained whilst using muscle building drugs at any time.
Also, the test used to be a certain amount had to be in the system before it triggered a positive result - for women in track and field this used to be a multiple of the average testosterone amount that a male produced! Over time the tests have got stricter - but basically you could have got away with taking small amounts if you were careful.
AL with testicular cancer may well have been offered testosterone by his doctors. I understand that thi sis not that unusual/uncommon as his own production may have decreased after treatment.
It's just a matter of time...
I have read that he was tested over 500 times and passed everyone at the time.
All samples have been kept in case the testing methods improve over time.
The latest evidence I believe is from witness statements that say they have seen him using drugs.
The last case was dropped with no explanation from the prosecution.
He is now currently banned from Triathlon and other sports.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/1 ... 94578.html
"It is believed, however, that much of the anecdotal evidence and accusations gathered from that investigation, including that of disgraced drug cheats Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton, was passed on to USADA although the "evidence" was considered unreliable in a court of law"
Wasn't he convicted yet?
Sent from my U8800 using Tapatalk 2
Lettuce be real, the majority of high calibre sportsmen are juicing, either illegally or on trt.
Maybe they are trying to make an example of Armstrong to show that he is not just some hero that lost a testicle, got cancer and battled against all odds to become the best of the best. That the reality is that he was roided out of his nut most of his career and without it he would not have become the man that he is known as today.
Now personally i know nothing about him, as a layman to the sport all i know is that the word on the street is that he got cancer "because he took steroids" Now this could be right or wrong but as the normal man on the street who knows nothing about professional racing this is what i have heard / read.
And i reckon it is right.
Armstrong has never been investigated on drugs offences, only the miss-spending of federal funds while riding for the US Postal team. The last set of investigators weren't interested if he took drugs, just if he spent tax payers money on them. There was little chance of success in that prosecution so the case was dropped, but the doping evidence was sent to the US doping authorities who are now suspending him.
I believe there is very little doubt that Lance Armstrong doped. I also believe there is almost no rider since the 60s who hasn't doped at some point. However, the sport is far cleaner now than ever. Look at the ascent times for the major TdF climbs, the modern riders can't get near the old Pantani/Armstrong times.
Going after Armstrong is understandable but stupid. Not as stupid as his return to the Tour, but stupid. Sure, ban him, but there's no need to rewrite records. We all know what happened. All of the cycling greats doped and there's no call to strip them all of their medals. In reverse order, all of these Tour winners have tested positive or admitted doping - Contandor, Landis, Pantani, Ulrich, Riis, Indurain, Delgado, Roche, Fignonm Zoetemelk, Thevenet, Merckx and Anquetil. So why go after Armstrong? I guess he was just too good.
Pantani and Ulrich are seen as victims of dope, while Armstrong is seem as the devil incarnate. Seems daft to me.
The sad truth is that cycling is the only sport that's completely open about its problems.
Football and rugby is probably much worse. If there's a single sprinter who doesn't take steroids or long distance runner who doesn't train on EPO/Insulin/Clen/HGH I'll eat my own knees.
Arnold Schwarzenegger
Everyone knows his name and in the 1970's he was roided to the gills, taking large doses of dbol every morning aka the Breakfast Of Champions and hence why he has pigs valves in his heart.
People expect to believe that sportsmen of the 80's 90's 20** are not on anything ?
You will also find that the UFC / MMA is the same these days as most of the fighters are on TRT, openly admit it and it is in the USA classed as a medical problem. Google "UFC TRT"The sad truth is that cycling is the only sport that's completely open about its problems.
Football and rugby is probably much worse. If there's a single sprinter who doesn't take steroids or long distance runner who doesn't train on EPO/Insulin/Clen/HGH I'll eat my own knees.
They might as well make roids legal in all sports.
I can't see a link to his cancer and use of steroids - this would be highly unusual. Other health problems maybe - but the amount these guys take is not usually massive (compared to the bodybuilding arena) - they wouldn't pass any tests if they were.
I am surprised they have banned him form other sports - he hasn't been found guilty yet, and that is wrong imho.
It's just a matter of time...
More news yesterday:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18441436
It's just a matter of time...
"Word on the street is he got cancer from taking steroids"? What street is this?? The 'normal man on the street', IF they have heard of him, will be aware he won a lot of races after recovering from cancer, maybe they'll make the link to "Livestrong". You sound like you done some minor reading around the subject and enjoy conspiracy theories.
Seven years after his last win this just smacks of witchunt. I don't care if he doped if that is what everybody else was doing, it just means the playing field was level.
David Millar has come clean about how easy it is to be dragged into doping and how complex and organised it is. Read what Millar says about Lance in his book, they rode in the same pelotons.
Tour de France = Greatest sporting event in the world, bar none.
Total respect for the competitors and the effort they have to put in most days over 3 weeks !
They ride well over 100 miles, they get up the next day and do the same, and the next day.
They ride up MOUNTAINS, they then hurtle down the other side on a push bike doing motorbike speeds.
Yes, and as an American taxpayer....STOP wasting my tax money on these useless investigations!will never be proven
There's obviously some knowledgeable folk on this thread, so hopefully someone will be able to answer this somewhat tangential question; is steroid abuse or blood tampering as prevalent in circuit cycling, where they travel those indoor banked wooden tracks, as it is in the touring races? Surely this form of cycling is as competitive and as physically demanding?
David
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Yes.
Steroids to some extent are the cruder form of performance enhancement these days. New drugs are being discovered and tested all the time - you need to go back decades and understand that the American olympic team commissioned a research project to make a steroid that would help them win to see how deep routed the use is.
I can not see how someone not doping could compete against a similarly, or even less natural gifted athlete who was doping. Regardless of how some caught doping trying and play down the effect and benefits - they are considerable.
It's just a matter of time...
Thanks for the info. I suspected as such and it's rather depressing isn't it - not so much a competition between athletes, rather chemists.Yes.
Steroids to some extent are the cruder form of performance enhancement these days. New drugs are being discovered and tested all the time - you need to go back decades and understand that the American olympic team commissioned a research project to make a steroid that would help them win to see how deep routed the use is.
I can not see how someone not doping could compete against a similarly, or even less natural gifted athlete who was doping. Regardless of how some caught doping trying and play down the effect and benefits - they are considerable.
David
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
To an extent yes. However, I think that takes away from the dedication and determination that these athletes display - will power and focus are extreme, regardless of the supplements used.Thanks for the info. I suspected as such and it's rather depressing isn't it - not so much a competition between athletes, rather chemists.Yes.
Steroids to some extent are the cruder form of performance enhancement these days. New drugs are being discovered and tested all the time - you need to go back decades and understand that the American olympic team commissioned a research project to make a steroid that would help them win to see how deep routed the use is.
I can not see how someone not doping could compete against a similarly, or even less natural gifted athlete who was doping. Regardless of how some caught doping trying and play down the effect and benefits - they are considerable.
A lot of these athletes don't stand a chance - they are told quite early on what is required - plus when you are not winning or improving they risk losing support from their respective sporting bodies, or sponsors.
I think it was Ben Johnson's old coach that said responded to a question about taking a substance that could make you Olympic Champion but damage your health in the future, or even kill, something along the lines of "any one that says they wouldn't take it didn't have what it took to be Olympic Champion!" :shock:
It's just a matter of time...
There is no way he was not taking stimulants, and for him to come first he probably took better ones that the others.
Good. One less reason for grown men to wear those stupid bloody rubber bangles.
Still pondering this. Watched all 10 parts of this last night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oLmS0Vmhiw
In the first two tours the way he bridges the gaps on the big climbs against pantani et al could be seen as superhuman - certainly looks like he's in a different league! Maybe they were all doping and the playing field was therefore level. I still think they are all top class athletes, and would have been without 'help'.
I also wonder if he's not been done for it as he's become a poster boy and the politics of it all say it''s better for him not to. The sport of cycling would definitely suffer (even more) if he was convicted and he's done a lot for cancer and the public as well...
Really though.. does it matter? I think this sort of thing is definitely part of top level sport (which is really saddening) and cycling suffers so much because it's trying to be clean so tests so much.
An interesting perspective from Mark Cavendish.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/18508991
Cheers,
Gary
I will never be able to fathom, how anybody can take TdF seriously.
To each his own, I guess.
Bjarne Riis, who like an automaton for years answered questions about doping with the same litany: "I've never tested positive for doping, I've never tested positive for doping!"
How he is able to look himself in the mirror is a mystery to me.
Interesting article indeed - particularly, and leaving the doping aside for the moment, that he's finally come out and said he's putting the Olympics above the Green Jersey... Takes some pressure off Sky (assuming it was his choice) to have to work for both Cav and Wiggo... a job which would have half killed the rest of the team!
I did wonder about this the other day when Cav won the GC in the Ster ZLM Toer. Ok, hardly a classic event but perhaps the sort of event that a rouleur who fancies himself over Box Hill a few times might win... A few percent off the sprint may mean an more competitive route through the lumpier bits perhaps?
Yep, good article that from Cav. Very interesting that sky are concentrating on wiggins and the GC, would like him to be a serious contender in the tour and his form at the moment is bang on.
The amount of doping in cycling only increases my respect for the challenge that a major victory represents. You have to stay ahead not only in technique and training, but also in pharmaceuticals. This applies to every other professsional sport, the difference being that cycling is the only one that crucifies itself over it.
I found the following to be a compelling read, for anyone who's interested. An extensive interview with Floyd Landis where he directly discusses his drug regimen as well as LA's involvement: http://nyvelocity.com/content/interv.../landiskimmage
I have respect for Armstrong as a competitor and champion, but the martyr routine does get a bit tiresome.
You have respect for those up to date with their drugs?
Well, people are different, I guess.
I can not see how 'respect' plays into this.
I certainly have no respect for them what so ever.
If they at least went public and admitted, that they were doped to the gills (as you can not win against those doped if you do not take anything yourself), I might have a modicum of respect for that.
Any respect for TdF participants and their drug induced 'achievements' have long since fallen by the wayside...., sort of like a doped up bike rider whose organism failed.
Right, because besting the world's top riders over a distance exceeding 3000 km during three weeks is a trivial feat with the right amount of EPO.
I'm not saying anything about the athletes themselves or their practices, I just find that it makes the victory itself all the more formidable.
That interview is an eye opener. I don't agree with doping (of course) but that is the first time I've read about the difficulties with so much honesty. What that chap had to go through is amazing.
Typical quote:
I had gone to get a check-up on my hip and was told it wasn’t going to last more than a year or two.
:shock:
Armstrong should stop the chest beating about this - everyone knows he cheated to win. If he thinks he's should be allowed to keep it under wraps because everyone else was doing it, or because he does great work for charity, well, I guess it's up to him.
I think part of the reason he's being pursued is because of the sheer depth of corruption that his doping includes - the claims that TUEs were back dated and that a failed test in the Tour of Switzerland 'went away' following intervention by the UCI means this goes far beyond one man cheating - however many races he doped in.
The interview with Landis is very interesting though. I don't particularly like Kimmage's writing - he comes across as too judgemental, too black and white, but you can't fault the work he's done trying to out the cheats. That said, as he admits doping himself in his racing days, you could say he was rather hypocritical.
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