Worlds best automatic movement by Audemars Piguet ?

[farmkid]

I've read numerous times recently that the Audemars Piguet 3120 automatic movement is widely regarded by watch industry experts as the
best in the world....bearing in mind the stiff competition from other high end watch makers I found this quite surprising.

http://uk.askmen.com/fashion/mens-watch ... tches.html

It is found in the Royal Oak Offshore Diver along with other AP models..... is it the best automatic movement in the world? what do the experts on here think?

[Raffe]

1) I am no expert
2) of all possible sources, you quote AskMen? WTF dude?
3) AP can seldom be pointed as the avant garde of movement design; remember that until not so long ago, JLC was the source of 90% of their movements. It was only past Richemont's acquisition of JLC that the relationship was going cold(er). Regardless, AP still hold licensing rights over several JLC calibers they used to source before and currently produce.
4) When you look at traditional movement legends, you think of JLC, Piaget, VC, Patek, Lemania, Piguet, etc... The "new" players creating truly exceptional, new in concept and materials, often revolutionary movements are DeBethune, H.Moser, Heritage Watch Manufacture, V. Halter, Urban Jurgensen, Kari Voutilainen, etc...

Not that AP are "bad" or inferior in any way but crowning a single movement as da-best is just not serious. Based on what criteria? Based on whose review? Scoring how much on what charts and confirmed by?

As rule of thumb, I would say - stop reading AskMen for anything other than jokes and humor. :wink:

[michael.jaye]

I doubt the 3120 is regarded as the best in the world or even AP's best. If it is why is the Royal oak jumbo so much more expensive than the RO 15300??

[el guapo]

I doubt the 3120 is regarded as the best in the world or even AP's best. If it is why is the Royal oak jumbo so much more expensive than the RO 15300??

Main reason the jumbo is more expensive is scarcity value. They make fewer of the jumbo than the 15300. It's also basically the same as the '72 (or thereabouts) original, so for purists it's more desirable.

And in any event, this is the first time I've heard of the 3120 being referred to as the best in the world. I have it and love the thing, but not sure about it being the best.

[744ER]

Its a nice movement but from what ive heard not without its problems. Not the best by any measure but surely a very good movement.

[Argee1977]

1) I am no expert
2) of all possible sources, you quote AskMen? WTF dude?
3) AP can seldom be pointed as the avant garde of movement design; remember that until not so long ago, JLC was the source of 90% of their movements. It was only past Richemont's acquisition of JLC that the relationship was going cold(er). Regardless, AP still hold licensing rights over several JLC calibers they used to source before and currently produce.
4) When you look at traditional movement legends, you think of JLC, Piaget, VC, Patek, Lemania, Piguet, etc... The "new" players creating truly exceptional, new in concept and materials, often revolutionary movements are DeBethune, H.Moser, Heritage Watch Manufacture, V. Halter, Urban Jurgensen, Kari Voutilainen, etc...

Not that AP are "bad" or inferior in any way but crowning a single movement as da-best is just not serious. Based on what criteria? Based on whose review? Scoring how much on what charts and confirmed by?

As rule of thumb, I would say - stop reading AskMen for anything other than jokes and humor. :wink:

AP actually owned a large part of JLC, as did others in the swiss watch industry, they used JLC to manufacture movements, which was either partially designed by others, or worked on together.

AP own the designs on movements such as the 2120 and 2121, because they commissioned JLC to make them on their behalf, and when they sold their share to Richemont, they kept the designs. The swiss watch industry actually worked together for these movements, Patek and Vacheron also contributed, but never used the movements as AP bought the design.

AP also create a lot of movements through their specialist movement manufacturer, Renaud et Papi, which produces movements for a host of other high end watch makers.

As for the original question, is the 3120 the best automatic movement, honestly, it's not really a question that can ever be answered, because there are so many that do the job so well, an ETA that is manufactured well and regulated properly will run just as good, and for as long as a 3120, it might not look as nice, but it'll do the job just the same. We're quite lucky these days, as i honestly struggle to think of a 'bad' movement in terms of watches, yes there are movements that are used badly in the overall watch, but they still do the job of timekeeping well.

[Bernard]

I visited AP.
The director that showed us around through the museum plainly told us that the best movement they use is the ultra thin JLC movement with a ring to support the rotor. It is the best movement they used and was by far the most expensive base movement. So expensive that JLC makes it for them but doesn't use it for their own watches.

The guy used to work on the highly complicated watches and had some 20 yrs experience.

I'd say the statement about the 3120 is rubbish.

AP has a better movement according to their own staff. Further, I can think of several other brands with better movements.

[jason recliner]

of all possible sources, you quote AskMen? WTF dude?

:lol:

[abraxas]

.
The best, JLC 975

2nd, Rolex 3135

3rd GO 95

john

[spluurfg]

I dunno, who makes the best car? The best yacht?

Focusing the question, in terms of serial production movements, which movement has the most desirable qualities and best balance of trade offs? I am not too sure. It depends on what you value.

Is a high end adjustable mass system of vast import? To me I find it desirable because it is cool and looks pretty but with computerised laser poising it isn't that important for accuracy.

Reliability? It is interesting that they did not opt for a ceramic bearing system in the automatic winding system, as perregaux and jlc do. The winding system, keyless works, and date system are all hugely important in this area. The jlc 975 variants with the Maltese cross big date function is a great example of a novel way of improving a key function.

[correction the 3120 does have ceramic bearings]

Ease of service? Well, to me it is the watchmakers problem as they have to bloody service it. There are novel features on the ap 3120 like the date wheel release, but others have made progress in this area, notably the gp3300 with their stem release and barrel unwinding buttons.

Technological advancement? The ulysse nardin and omega modern movements employ silicon components fabricated from lithographic methods which permit huge precision and also permit lubrication free function, in addition to their ideal magnetic and thermal stability.

Interning-ness? Micro rotors? Double barrels?

Aesthetics? Definitely matters to me. I do find that some calibres are functionally beautiful in a craftsman-like way, the el primero jumps to mind, but the ap 3120 sure has that classic beauty.

And finally... Cost. Is it worth it? If you can have a silicon escapement variable inertia coaxial double barrel well finished movement from omega for 4k retail, is it worth it to pay 15k for a 3120?

[spluurfg]

I visited AP.
The director that showed us around through the museum plainly told us that the best movement they use is the ultra thin JLC movement with a ring to support the rotor. It is the best movement they used and was by far the most expensive base movement. So expensive that JLC makes it for them but doesn't use it for their own watches.

The guy used to work on the highly complicated watches and had some 20 yrs experience.

I'd say the statement about the 3120 is rubbish.

AP has a better movement according to their own staff. Further, I can think of several other brands with better movements.

This one I think

http://www.timezone.com/library/horo...86780396906210

[Bernard]

This one I think

http://www.timezone.com/library/horo...86780396906210

Yes.

[bazza.]

For time keeping its way of the mark I've found , at the min
I'm very impressed with the new Cartier one in the last 3 days
It's still running -0.5 sec my AP can't match that

[dickbrowne]

Different strokes for different folks - what is the best anyway? What does that even mean? It's like cars, what's the best car? It's a Ferrari, or an Aston obviously. Yep, well, you try and get a wardrobe in the back, fella.

Depends on what you want it for, but like the aforementioned Aston or Ferrari, it's a thing of great beauty (the movement that is, I'm not keen on the case or dial) and it can be appreciated for the engineering excellence, but if I want to wear a watch in the swimming pool, it's not going to be my grab-and-go watch, a Seiko is much more likely to fit the bill

[Vahalis]

As rule of thumb, I would say - stop reading AskMen for anything other than jokes and humor. :wink:

:withstupid:

[Argee1977]

For time keeping its way of the mark I've found , at the min
I'm very impressed with the new Cartier one in the last 3 days
It's still running -0.5 sec my AP can't match that

Get it regulated and it would, same as an ETA, they are all capable of timekeeping pretty much to the second.

[Huertecilla]

.
The best, JLC 975

2nd, Rolex 3135

3rd GO 95

john

Measured against which criteria given what weights?

Any judgement should be preceeded by concensus about a measuring standard, otherwise it is an ´I think´ with the weight of the personal expertise. Which in your case I dééply bow to, but that is not the point I am trying to make.

[bazza.]

For time keeping its way of the mark I've found , at the min
I'm very impressed with the new Cartier one in the last 3 days
It's still running -0.5 sec my AP can't match that

Get it regulated and it would, same as an ETA, they are all capable of timekeeping pretty much to the second.

I did it was running -7 for new :cry:

[Omegamanic]

For time keeping its way of the mark I've found , at the min
I'm very impressed with the new Cartier one in the last 3 days
It's still running -0.5 sec my AP can't match that

Get it regulated and it would, same as an ETA, they are all capable of timekeeping pretty much to the second.

I disagree. I have never had a watchmaker agree to make one of my watches less then 3 secs a day. I assume this is because there are too many variables and if you have a watch that is less than 1 sec a day I would think yourself very very lucky, rather than assuming this is possible for all movements with a bit of effort.

In any case I am very pleased to Cartier is running so well - this is I believe their first in-house movement.

[Huertecilla]

this is I believe their first in-house movement.

Binding customer hands, feet and wallet to them.

[Argee1977]

For time keeping its way of the mark I've found , at the min
I'm very impressed with the new Cartier one in the last 3 days
It's still running -0.5 sec my AP can't match that

Get it regulated and it would, same as an ETA, they are all capable of timekeeping pretty much to the second.

I disagree. I have never had a watchmaker agree to make one of my watches less then 3 secs a day. I assume this is because there are too many variables and if you have a watch that is less than 1 sec a day I would think yourself very very lucky, rather than assuming this is possible for all movements with a bit of effort.

In any case I am very pleased to Cartier is running so well - this is I believe their first in-house movement.

There's a lot of variables, but what i'm saying is if you take the cartier, ap, eta, rolex, etc into a watchmaker and get them regulated, they are all capable of running at +/-1 or whatever, mechanically, they are very similar in the fact they are basic movements that in the main, use technology that is tried and tested.

I had a 3120 myself, it ran about -10 when i got it, was not happy about that, but had it serviced and it came back and was losing about half a second a day, i've had a rolex that was similar in the fact that it would only gain about a second over a day or two, and a valjoux 72 that i managed to regulate to losing a second every couple of days as well.

When it comes to these types of movements, there's very little in it, the AP has some nice little touches in relation to ceramic bearings, clever updates to the mechanism, but in the end it just tells the time as reliably as most of today's movements.

[JeremyO]

How do you define the best? Accuracy, precision, longevity?

As has been said many movements are capable of running +/- 1 sec/day these days with precise regulation.

[bazza.]

I only got the AP back Saturday and today is the first day I,ve had it
On so I'm going to give it a few days and see how it goes ,
They gave me a report saying it was running 4 sec a day I'm hoping
It will get better just have to wait and see ,
When I first had a go about running 8 sec's out they say that was normal

The Cartier on the hand is very impressive and a great watch I think

[robcat]

I have to say that calling something the "world's best", as the WatchSnob guy does, just makes him look like a schoolboy. With anything subjective (and even a lot of things objective) you simply can't define "the best". What is the best car? Who is the best-looking woman? The article is lazy/sensational journalism. (He did put "greatest automatic movement" in parentheses, but the guist was there). The JLC-based movement in the 15202 is more highly regarded.

[Daddelvirks]

Kingston, for a year now at 3 seconds a week.................=2824 elabore :)

Regulating rules :) .

Daddel.

[Argee1977]

I only got the AP back Saturday and today is the first day I,ve had it
On so I'm going to give it a few days and see how it goes ,
They gave me a report saying it was running 4 sec a day I'm hoping
It will get better just have to wait and see ,
When I first had a go about running 8 sec's out they say that was normal

The Cartier on the hand is very impressive and a great watch I think

Yeah, it's the mad thing about this game, we're all so precise that when a high end watch company says '4 seconds is fine' we can't believe they'd say such a thing :lol:

I used to be very precise, but i have to say i've gone away from that these days, the current watch is about 15 to 20 seconds slow, but i just add a minute on every 3 or 4 days, simple and easy, and i'm never in need of being accurate to the second

[Watchfanatic]

Sorry for being this late :( but the Calibre 3120 is actually regarded as one of the FINEST mechanical movement made, it can also mean ONE of THE BEST, due to its accuracy and reliability, and the finishing. The 3hz frequency allow it to loose less than a second a day.

My source are: Chronometrie.com, Hondinkee and the watch collecting lifestyle website. Cheers.

[Jim W]

Several years ago when I bought my first modern Grand Seiko it gained about 5 seconds a day. I guessed it could do better than that, so I had the 9S56 movement regulated. It amazes me, I've been wearing it every day for over a month and it has lost just 2 seconds... that's Spring Drive territory!

Is it the best movement in the world? Probably not, but it is a damn good one!

[ktmog6uk]

You could say the Seiko 7s26 is the best, many are still going 40 plus years on with no servicing....

[DB9yeti]

My source are: Chronometrie.com, Hondinkee and the watch collecting lifestyle website. Cheers.

Ah, you read it. Great.

Thanks for joining up to tell us you'd read it somewhere.

[Xantiagib]

AP do seem to make some amazing automatic movements...

My friend has an ultra thin for sale in his shop and I couldn't resist popping in to see it.... 2.45 mm thick and under the loupe it is very very pleasing to the eye (something that can't be said for other high end manufacturers I dare say)

though I later found out: "Caliber 2120 was a joint project between Audemars Piguet, Vacheron Constantin, Jaeger-LeCoultre and Patek Philippe. Though Jaeger-LeCoultre actually produced the movement, with financial and technical assistance from the other three, Audemars Piguet owns exclusive rights to it today and uses it to power its Jules Audemars Extra Thin watch." its been around since 1967 apparently...



then again they make some whacky autos too like the 2870 bumper tourbillon auto:

[Watchfanatic]

Ah, you read it. Great.

Thanks for joining up to tell us you'd read it somewhere.

it's okay :) those sources covered the topic after the OP though, that's why...Cheers.

[Watchfanatic]

I'd say the statement about the 3120 is rubbish.

AP has a better movement according to their own staff. Further, I can think of several other brands with better movements.[/QUOTE]




I think AP's staff can say whatever they wants, but the 3120 is the finest movement in the world, it may as well be the best... who knows, but the finest for sure, with 280 parts, and a very precise frequency as well as precise escapement positioning, it might be indeed the best, not sure, but still., my sources said that it can maintain a very stable rate loosing or gaining less than a second a day.The 3120 is really a breakthrough in horological world, amd i think it will stay like that for a very long time :) cheers.

[Der Amf]

Sorry for being this late :( but the Calibre 3120 is actually regarded as one of the FINEST mechanical movement made, it can also mean ONE of THE BEST, due to its accuracy and reliability, and the finishing. The 3hz frequency allow it to loose less than a second a day.

My source are: Chronometrie.com, Hondinkee and the watch collecting lifestyle website. Cheers.

3Hz being 21,600 bph......I think this is the first time I've read someone claiming that a low beat benefits accuracy

[Watchfanatic]

3Hz being 21,600 bph......I think this is the first time I've read someone claiming that a low beat benefits accuracy

It is combined with the escapement lever stopping at a very precise depth into the wheel :)

[Der Amf]

It is combined with the escapement lever stopping at a very precise depth into the wheel :)

Your learning is astonishingly deep? Or, looking at your comments on WUS.....

The 2824-2 has a quite bad reputation, it's kinda being a hit or miss, that's why i'm worried, and the movememt found in the stuhrling is a caliber ST-80003, i've heard that is a Sea-Gull movement, do you know anything about it?

.....maybe not.

[Watchfanatic]

Your learning is astonishingly deep? Or, looking at your comments on WUS.....



.....maybe not.

I'm just sayin what i've read on my sources, and the old comment was .... old..... so yea, when i'm interested in a movement, i read about it intensively, the penetration of the lever into the escapement wheel is 0,04mm, compared to other 0,4mm in some standard movement :)

[Der Amf]

I'm just sayin what i've read on my sources, and the old comment was 2 months old.....

[Neely8]

I don't know about 'best movement in the world' but the 3120 in my AP Diver is the most accurate mechanical I own. Worn daily and left winding crown up overnight it gains 2 seconds a week.

[Watchfanatic]

Well, during this time, i understand the reliability of the movement, and it's now my daily driver...

[Der Amf]

As Wenger once said of Fergson, everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home

[Watchfanatic]

As Wenger once said of Fergson, everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home

I don't own a AP but I can confirm from reviews and articles about it. I'm also interested in some JLC movement

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[Watchfanatic]

As Wenger once said of Fergson, everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home

And btw, i said the finest, not the best but imo it might me the best, AP using it for base movement for numerous other movements.

[stooo]

Finest - like Tesco or hair?

[nunya]

Holy thread resurrection, finest movement? The best movement?
Doubtful, I'd guess PP do it better, or possibly VC

[CVByrne]

I think the work VC have put into their movements in recent years is getting the credit they deserve. Probably the best around at the moment, I get a feeling Patek taking their position a little bit for granted.

[Watchfanatic]

Holy thread resurrection, finest movement? The best movement?
Doubtful, I'd guess PP do it better, or possibly VC

The big three makes undoubtedly the best movements

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[Watchfanatic]

As Wenger once said of Fergson, everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home

One last thing,

I based my opinions and argument on several sources, this is one of them

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/au...nograph-review

Cheers.

[Der Amf]

One last thing,

I based my opinions and argument on several sources, this is one of them

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/au...nograph-review

Cheers.

A review of a watch....which uses a different movement....and says this in passing: "As I mentioned before, Audemars Piguet makes a superb self-winding movement, the 3120. It is used as a base in the modular Offshore watches, but in this smaller, thinner Royal Oak, it is not used". That's the kind of in depth technical analysis with which Hodinkee made their name.

[Watchfanatic]

A review of a watch....which uses a different movement....and says this in passing: "As I mentioned before, Audemars Piguet makes a superb self-winding movement, the 3120. It is used as a base in the modular Offshore watches, but in this smaller, thinner Royal Oak, it is not used". That's the kind of in depth technical analysis with which Hodinkee made their name.

You forgot to read the text under the picture of the movement. But here's other sources,

http://www.watchcollectinglifestyle....t-caliber-3120
http://www.p178host.com/apgallery/3120/

Cheers.