Reply With QuoteIt will be interesting to see how they deal with second hand owners in the mix of solutions!
UPDATE Alloy test
Dear Regattare Bronze customers,
After our colleagues from Helson and Benarus recently announced that their bronze watches appeared to be made from a different alloy than advertised, we decided to have our cases tested as well.
Yesterday we got the final results back from an independent laboratory in New Zealand. We had several cases tested to make sure we got results that were representative of the different batches we received from our supplier.
Like with our colleagues, it appears that our supplier did not deliver us what was promised and confirmed by them more than once to be CuSn8, a bronze alloy that has a high amount of copper, some tin and very little other metals.
The alloy that was found in our cases is a high level brass alloy. That contains a lower percentage of copper, zinc and a tiny bit of lead. The same material saxophones, trumpets, trombones are made of.
Fact is that we unwillingly and unknowingly have been selling the watch cases as CuSn8 bronze. We are currently considering several options of solving this to the full satisfaction of our customers. We now think this will be possible, but need confirmation of several scenarios before being able to present our ideas to you in full.
We hope you understand this is quite a special situation and that it involves close communication with our suppliers and other parties to reach a solution that will be workable, that minimizes the business impact to our small company and that makes our faithful customers happy.
As soon as we will be able to present a viable solution in full, we will communicate it on our magrette.com and magrette.eu web sites, as well on the facebook/magrette.eu page and in the larger watch community forums. We want to communicate openly about this and appreciate you sharing this info within the watch community.
It does not suffice to say that we feel a victim ourselves because of our good faith in our business partners. We feel we have to make this right, staying true to our own values and beliefs.
Needless to say we will contact all buyers of this model by email as soon as we have a detailed plan. We will also contact all people who have reserved this model for purchase with some clear options as soon as possible.
We probably will not be able to answer all individual questions at this point in time, but will try to answer most asked question on forums/facebook whenever possible. We need to spend time sorting this out, so we can continue doing what we like much more: introducing new models and sell these to our customers.
With kind regards,
Dion McAsey
Founder Magrette Timepieces
Stephan Trimbos
Magrette Timepieces Europe
It will be interesting to see how they deal with second hand owners in the mix of solutions!
Gray
How have Helson/Benarus dealt with that?Originally Posted by gray
I feel sorry for all involved - was it the same supplier of 'brasso-bronze' for all 3 companies?
Not too sure, but I seem to recall there offers were directed at current owners - for current owners to contact them and they would advise on options. I guess it's not too unreasonable that the offers be tailored differently for those that bought direct and still own and second hand buyers.How have Helson/Benarus dealt with that?
Gray
Potentially no need to deal with second-hand owners at all, unless there's a transferable warranty (there's an online form to activate the warranty but not seen any further info).
However, if I'd purchased one of these second-hand, I'd be going back to the person from whom I'd purchased it, to claim from them. So it could get really messy for anyone who's sold one of these...
I wonder where the alloy came from ?
Cheers
Simon
Ralph Waldo Emerson: We ask for long life, but 'tis deep life, or noble moments that signify. Let the measure of time be spiritual, not mechanical.
Well, at least when you are tired of your watch, you can always melt it and make a nice hobo
from it :lol:
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
China, presumably. I hope the three companies affected so far are able to recover the cost of this from their supplier, although by the look of it, professional integrity may not be their strong suit.
Apart from the perfectly valid issue of it not being as described, what is the disadvantage of the actual alloy used ? I mean as far as it's physical properties. Is it softer ? If someone likes their watch, is there any potential problem with them keeping it as it is ? Trumpets seem to last a long time. Interested if any metallurgists present might be able to comment, in laymans terms.
Paul
It's mildly toxic (lead). It's also prone to salt water erosion.
Gray
Neither is particularly what I look for in a watch. :wink:It's mildly toxic (lead). It's also prone to salt water erosion.
You could try wearning it contantly, it may corrode itself to your wrist - no more straps :PNeither is particularly what I look for in a watch. :wink:It's mildly toxic (lead). It's also prone to salt water erosion.
Gray
Mmmm - nice! :lol:You could try wearning it contantly, it may corrode itself to your wrist - no more straps :PNeither is particularly what I look for in a watch. :wink:It's mildly toxic (lead). It's also prone to salt water erosion.
Thanks. I had thought the lead content wouldn't matter if it's in an alloy but I'm not educated in this field. Sounds like the brands affected are doing the right thing.It's mildly toxic (lead). It's also prone to salt water erosion.
Paul
I am a second owner.
Hope I haven't been stiffed.
I really like this watch and was seriously considering reserving one (if that were still possible) so will be watching this development closely
I'm intrigued how they will deal with this. I would ideally like a full refund but I will lose out on customs charges if I do. A case change will take time and will be a faff with postage to NZ etc. I understand that Magrette have been stiffed but it doesn't make me any happier about the situation. :evil:
I doubt they would limit exchanges to original purchasers only. If they did that, it would put me right off the idea of ever buying from them. Apart from anything, if the lead content does make it toxic (seems unlikely as trumpets are not toxic, to the best of my knowledge, but perhaps prolonged skin contact makes a difference) then they have a duty to replace them all for safety reasons. They are after all, the manufacturer, not just the seller.
Magrette have already said over on WUS that a refund is not an option. Doubt they could stay in business if they did but this is the only solution that I would want.
Some strange prose going on at the Magrette website...
The description of the Magrette Bronze now appears to feature the word brass... but at the same time claiming to be bronze?? :shock:
Cheers,
Effortless.
Just checked their website too, and it seems that they are unaware of a 'change all' function! Smatterings of bronze and brass all over the place.
Whatever happens, I will be keeping mine as a historical curiosity (as well as fine watch that I will enjoy wearing). :)
I'm not massively bothered really, although potential corrosion on exposure to salt water is less than ideal. I'd certainly be happy with a replacement rather than a refund.
+1
I also have one, like it.
Just wondering if Anonimo (the inventor of the brass watch) and high-end followers like Panerai face the same problems?
Makes you wonder what is lurking in the steel that cheap far east cases are made of.
I am not a trumpet player but I am sure it involves blowing a mouthpiece, not the body of a brass wind instrumentI doubt they would limit exchanges to original purchasers only. If they did that, it would put me right off the idea of ever buying from them. Apart from anything, if the lead content does make it toxic (seems unlikely as trumpets are not toxic, to the best of my knowledge, but perhaps prolonged skin contact makes a difference) then they have a duty to replace them all for safety reasons. They are after all, the manufacturer, not just the seller.
Gray
I think that's a shocking response from this company. They are basically saying we can't yet offer full refunds until we get our supplier to accept full liability. That's a crock. All that guff about the situation being complicated.
It isn't, it's simple, you are entitled to a refund. End of.
Not a huge amount of alloy in contact with the skin.
It seems pretty understandable to me. Don't really see the point of a refund either, really - it's not as though the watch has magically become less appealing over night.I think that's a shocking response from this company. They are basically saying we can't yet offer full refunds until we get our supplier to accept full liability. That's a crock. All that guff about the situation being complicated.
Edit: Do you own one?
And in 50 years time, you'll have a rarity worth squillions. Or you'll have died of lead poisoning. :D
I am of course kidding about the second point. I'm no metallurgist and nor do I profess to have even the vaguest idea about compounds.
[quote="Seabadger" it's not as though the watch has magically become less appealing over night.
Edit: Do you own one?[/quote]
I do and I think it has. I was prepared to put up with the fact that the colour and patina were not as I had expected when I thought it was actually bronze. I even naively thought that it simply hadn't reached it's end patina yet. Now I know that it's because it isn't bronze at all (but shouts "bronze" at me from the dial) I must say that I have rather gone off it.
Fair enough. Personally I've no desire to see him go out of business because of a supply chain problem that appears to have affected several firms - I've no idea about their financial situation but I'm assuming that issuing a large number of refunds immediately could be problematic.
See Steve Laughlin's (of Benarus) comments about this (quoted in the previous thread): viewtopic.php?f=1&t=209119#p2147882China, presumably. I hope the three companies affected so far are able to recover the cost of this from their supplier, although by the look of it, professional integrity may not be their strong suit.
Doesn't mention where it's sourced from, unless I missed something. Someone has clearly been selling brass as bronze, which I'd assume can only be either incompetence or dishonesty.
And in 50 years time, you'll have a rarity worth squillions. Or you'll have died of lead poisoning. :D
:D :D :D
I don't need to own one to have an opinion on this. I've not offered an opinion on the watch, only the response from the manufacturer. It's shocking they find feable excuses about it being 'complicated'. It isn't, they should should simply instruct their retailers to offer refunds. Why haven't they done that?
Totally agree.
If it was my only watch I'd probably want it changed, but as it's a relatively cheap curiosity that will only get worn every now and then, I'm just going to stick with it.
Besides, I don't have any other Brass watches and there's room for a Bronze one in my collection now !
Opinion noted - it's the vicarious anger I don't get. So much of it on here.
It doesn't state the name of the metal supplier but it does state how the non-bronze came to be supplied:
In other words, it is a matter of dishonesty on the part of the metal supplier (not Benarus's OEM).I want to be clear about some details. This is not the fault of our factory. Our factory was very disappointed when the test results came back and they are paying for most of the recall costs involved. The problem came from the supplier of the bronze
In another post Steve Laughlin said that their replacement metal supplier was in Germany (not a Chinese company as before) and that they were, not surprisingly, testing the metal before theor OEM used it.
P.S. Ah yes, I see what you mean now: That message does not state that the OEM's original metal supplier was Chinese. However, that was explicitly stated in another post (on 3T I think).
Good question, but IIRC Anonimo in particular is expected to be safe because they were there first before it became a bandwagon. Panerai and others are wealthy enough to do their own testing.
With the refund question, are Benarus offering refunds? Or "just" a switch of cases?
Anonimo uses a different bronze, quite different to the "bronzes" discussed here. This is the bronze I've been trying to get for the PRS-30 but it's not that widely available and even more difficult to get hold of in the comparatively small quantity that I need.Good question, but IIRC Anonimo in particular is expected to be safe because they were there first before it became a bandwagon. Panerai and others are wealthy enough to do their own testing.
With the refund question, are Benarus offering refunds? Or "just" a switch of cases?
I've stated this before so it's not a revelation but when I got really hacked off with the delay in producing the PRS-30, I asked Roland Kemmner how come every man and his dog could produce a bronze watch at a low price and yet I had all these difficulties being presented to me. His reply was either well-informed or prophetic when he replied "Because they are not bronze Eddie".
My own view is that there was a bandwagon to be jumped on and some people thought "brass, bronze, who will know?". The low prices of some of the offerings should have been a clue.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Eddie, it is a 'funny' coincidence (not funny ha-ha); just before this bronze debacle broke, I was chatting with a mutual WIS friend in Florida and mentioned that after the Polluce, everybody and his brother was churning out inferior bronze watches while you took your time and did the usual time consuming research before launching the PRS-30.
I mentioned Benarus and Marette specifically and was annoyed, that they had 'overtaken' (for lack of better words) the PRS-30 i.e. was on the market before the PRS
This might hurt the sale of some bronze watches.
I have no doubt though, that the PRS-30 will sell, but are you still comitted to it after these problems have surfaced?
I am not accusing neither Magrette nor Benarus of anything. Both seem to be working on doing the decent thing and I happen to like watches from both brands.
PS Cali dial - no date, pls :mrgreen:
It won't put me off in the slightest, in fact I think it will work in my favour.
If all three companies involved got the same "wrong bronze" then it seems that it came from the same source. If all three companies involved failed to notice whilst machining the metal that it was the "wrong bronze" (bronze and brass produce significantly different turnings), this suggests that they all purchased finished cases or watches from the same source. This is what I meant when I said they were eager to jump on the bandwagon
I've even considered buying a scrap naval propeller for the bronze and documenting the watch all the way through the manufacturing process. Anybody know where they advertise scrap naval propellers? The grade I'm looking for has the composition CuAl11Fe4Ni4 and has as much as 84% copper, which gives it the pinkish colour. I can get this new but they want a minimum order of 250 kilos and that makes a LOT of watch cases.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
It may be simple to say, but if your a small 'boutique' watch maker the implications of a carte blanche refund before they know if they can recover the costs from their supplier will be to go bust, no wonder they are being cautious ....... Cut them some slack?
Cheers..
Jase
I apologise if this is daft question, but if you get an old prop, I preusme you know a business that can melt it down to make it into what you need. Does it change its properties when it has been melted and re-cast? Can you tell if its the right formulation before you get it?
Some of these things weigh a fair bit too!
I do know some old salts in Plymouth, not sure if they have any links with naval/merchant naval scrapyards though. I could ask if you like?
I was on the waiting list for the next delivery of the Magrette Bronze, due the beginning of March & I received this email from them yesterday -
(if it's not ok to post this, I'll delete it)
Reservation Update
(Bitte schicken Sie mir eine email wenn Sie kein Englisch lesen)
Dear customer,
*
Some of you might have been following the issue colleague brands Benarus and Helson encountered with their bronze case alloy. After it became known that their suppliers did sell them a different alloy than promised, we immediately decided to independently test our bronze cases as well.
*
We updated our followers on facebook and via the magrette.com site about this. This morning we posted another memo with the results that you can read on our public facebook page here: http://www.facebook.com/MAGRETTE.EU
*
We have not much to add to this message for now. We have work to do.
*
You asked us to reserve this watch for you. We received the shipment with pre-orders in the Netherlands today. We only want to sell it if you are aware that the case is made from a high quality brass instead of bronze as we just learned ourselves. **
*
SPECIAL OFFER
If you decide to buy this watch anyway, we will offer it to you including the new matching buckle (normally a +40 Euro option), or with an additional strap (value 40 Euro) for Euro 299,- plus shipping. By agreeing to this special offer, you will not be eligible for any parts-exchange action that we try to organise for customers who bought this watch earlier, thinking (like we) that it was bronze. Our regular conditions for guarantee apply (1 year guarantee).*
*
We decided to offer this watch to you for three reasons:
we already were contacted by customers who want to buy the watch as it is.
we still think this is a good watch with great looks at a great price. We even made it more attractive.
and yes, we can use the money to keep investing in our new models that will be ready in May.
*
We would appreciate to hear back from you which option (see below) you choose, so we can inform you how to proceed. We do apologize for the inconvenience we unwillingly might have caused.
*
A: Yes, I will still buy the watch at the special price including a matching buckle.
B: Yes, I will still buy the watch at the special price including two straps (brown and black with stainless steel buckles).
C: Yes, I will still buy the watch at the special price including two straps (brown and black with stainless steel buckles), but want to add a matching buckle at 40 Euro to my order.
D: No, sorry, but the exact alloy specification is important for me. You can take me off the reservation list.
With kind regards,
Magrette Timepieces Europe
Stephan Trimbos
Interesting! As Magrette Bronze owner I now have a brass watch. So there is room in my collection for a real brass watch! Do you already have pictures/design ready? Where can I find more info?
Take a look here - some very nice pictures on Pg 32 :)
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=49615
This is where HMS Invincible was sold: edisposals.com (in fact I believe that is the link to the page from which Invincible was sold, although it's no longer there). There are plenty of boats (with bronze propellors attached?) in the Boats link on the left.
As you can see from the home page, edisposals.com is moving to the rather less commercial-looking site at http://www.mod.uk/edisposals
If I remember correctly from Steve Laughlin's comment on 3T, they are just offering a case swap. Helson too are offering a case swap if I remember correctly.
We have some divers on here, right? People who could, say, go for a dive near some boats? :lol:
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