Reply With QuotePlenty of good watches to suit all budgets. I have never understood the desire to own a fake and would not trust a person who did I think it says a lot about a persons character.
Hi guys,
I was away for the forum for a few months because of various work issues. I came back and noticed a lack of posts from a member I used to see a lot of (Vicky or Tai Mi Shu). A bit of Googling later and I'd discovered why. I don't intend to bring any of that up as it seems to have been done to death.
What my search did bring up, and this is the subject of my post, is the massive community of replica/fake watch enthusiasts there are out there. I was pretty shocked at the extent some people go to in order to make a fake watch look identical to an authentic watch. The worst part is that some people actually go to lengths to modify existing fake watches so that they can then tell people that their fake watch is real - they also appear not to have any shame in deliberately misleading people.
When I was younger I bought a Submariner replica, out of interest more than anything and because it's a watch a love and hope to get one at some point. I marvelled at how accurate it seemed to be (to my entirely untrained eye - it's fairly obvious to me that it isn't real now). It must have some sort of decent movement in as it still works and appears to keep decent time. However, I wouldn't wear it in public and certainly wouldn't try and convince someone it's something other than a fake.
I've got no problem with people building watches, and building watches that look like other popular brands. But I just can't get my head around building a watch with the intention of making it look like a popular brand including logos etc to then pass it off as real. I also can't get around the idea that there are posts that say "got my DSSD / Sub / whatever" and they're actually referring to a new fake watch, albeit a fairly convincing one to the untrained eye. I don't doubt the knowledge of these people or the relative quality of the product but the strange discussions as if they are authentic I just don't get.
Is this deluded? Or is it a good thing that people that can't afford what is a very expensive piece of jewellery can own something similar to it? Do people just like the idea of a replica? I find the whole thing baffling.
Plenty of good watches to suit all budgets. I have never understood the desire to own a fake and would not trust a person who did I think it says a lot about a persons character.
here we go again :wink:
not having a pop at you OP, but the whole topic of fakes/replicas & homage has been repeated time & time again..
But you thought you would anyway :lol: :roll:Originally Posted by hansblix2001
Here is how it seems to me:
We're enthusiasts and we find originality and authenticity in watches to be of massive importance. We find it difficult to understand that not everyone might care about these things as we do.
Then there are lots and lots of people, probably the majority (especially if taken worldwide), who really aren't that bothered. It doesn't matter to them one way or another. Fake or not, it's just a watch to them (or trainer, or shirt, or handbag, or sunglasses). Sure, this horrifies us, but we need to understand that our interests and beliefs (and the seriousness with which we take them) are in the minority.
And then there are a few others, the 'replica' community, who are as geeky and OCDish about 'replicas' (i.e. what we call fakes) as we are about genuine watches.
At the end of the day the world is a big place and there are a variety of interest groups. We are what we are, others are what they are. We can judge them in moral terms and they can judge us.
But the main thing I think is not to get too concerned with it. If you just don't understand or grok the repllica geeks then don't worry about it. They do their thing. They probably don't get us either. And the great bulk of people in the middle definitely don't get us. Most people find our truly geeky interest in watches to be as baffling as the replica geeks are to you.
Here is how it seems to me:
We're enthusiasts and we find originality and authenticity in watches to be of massive importance. We find it difficult to understand that not everyone might care about these things as we do.
Then there are lots and lots of people, probably the majority (especially if taken worldwide), who really aren't that bothered. It doesn't matter to them one way or another. Fake or not, it's just a watch to them (or trainer, or shirt, or handbag, or sunglasses). Sure, this horrifies us, but we need to understand that our interests and beliefs (and the seriousness with which we take them) are in the minority.
And then there are a few others, the 'replica' community, who are as geeky and OCDish about 'replicas' (i.e. what we call fakes) as we are about genuine watches.
At the end of the day the world is a big place and there are a variety of interest groups. We are what we are, others are what they are. We can judge them in moral terms and they can judge us.
But the main thing I think is not to get too concerned with it. If you just don't understand or grok the repllica geeks then don't worry about it. They do their thing. They probably don't get us either. And the great bulk of people in the middle definitely don't get us. Most people find our truly geeky interest in watches to be as baffling as the replica geeks are to you.
Ermmmm...
Did I just read a balanced, intelligent comment on an internet forum???
I think you risk being banned from the whole internet for life sir.
:)
Watches, like cars are seen as status symbols to the non-WIS. The same person that would buy and be proud of a fake is likely someone that would buy this:
And be proud it's an MR2 underneath
Your searching dug up many forums where fakes are proudly discussed.
Don't you think you'd get a better response as to why such places exist and support such fakery on a forum that exists to support such fakery, rather than here?
Fakes are made by fakers, for fake people who want to fake something.
Fake off
Gray
Ah I recall why I came back - for the friendly discourse! Thanks for (some of) the responses I was just interested and didn't mean to cause offence.
I'll get my jacket...
Welll the one bonus for the Replica forums.. it educates me as to what to look out for when I am buying... some of them are getting to close to easily tell apart..
Information is power!
Matt
I feel I have to add something to this as I personally own two replica's. The reason being is that that they are replicas of historically important watches which would cost me in excess of $200,000 to buy genuine.
They are of 3646 Panerai Type f - complete with a Cortebert/Rolex 616 movement - the original used a Cal 618.
And a 6152-1 Panerai - complete with a genuine Angelus SF240 movement, Angelus hands, Rolex Tropic 25 and Rolex 8mm Big crown and stem - all as per the original.
Are they replicas yes - are they fakes only you can decide - however neither watch would fool an expert, not that they will ever go up for sale (in my life time).
Would I buy a replica/fake and try and pass if off as genuine - NO!!
Andy
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
There is also a community that recreates no longer made, even prototype watches. Largely handcrafted cases/bezels, acrylics etc. In the case of panerai, this is very much like what was done in Firenze in contrast to the automated process of Richemont.
Most finish these as sterile tributes capturing the ´soul´ :wink: of the oldies. I think this is highly laudable.
Some make them into replicas with branding. Personally do not find this acceptable for even personal use only, but I admit to being on the wrong side of the fence (for STRICTLY personal use only) when it comes to abusive practices like the trademark registrations by Richemont. I think it abusive because it is a circumventing legal trick to stretch copyrights and patents that have terms for good reason.
It is like recreating vintage bikes and cars to race. Usually thóse get branded as Maserati, MV Agusta or Norton even and nobody is bothered nor are websites of those guys pestered by Ferrari or MV Agusta. The latter factory even helpfully assist the recreators of fakes.
Buenas Andy.
I have grown to come to appreciate your view on this andI will eat ány humble pie concerning possible past differences of opinion.
It is EXACTLY the same as recreating the Seeley GoldStar to race in ´classic´ races today :idea:
I am still quite hesitant on adding Panerai of Radiomir to a dial but on the other hand think nothing of it on a recreated Maserati or such so that is probably a strangely differentiated perception caused by the manufacturer induced paranoia of wis-dom about this.
The crux is the selling bit. I see no harm in you selling on your one off recreation to a fellow nut. It is not intended as an original nor passed off as one. If anything it truély homages the old vintage watches with which the modern mass produced ones are associated.
Btw; the recreation guys have designed and produced a wónderfull three piece dial design (finish yourself 70 dollar) for vintage tribute projects.
In doing so they have taken this a step beyónd what Panerai did or does.
They cannot afford to patent it so they may end up being stamped upon when Richemont does...
A bronze 6154 (no crown guard so nóó infractions) anyone?
Only baffling part for me is how so many so called WIS are good at being outraged but can't spot a fake rolex :lol:
.
Even most Rolex afficionados these days agree that the fake market has increased Rolex's profile. And the only reason WISes are upset about the fake market is because now they have to pay more for the real stuff. The answer is to wear watches that can't be cheaply faked. There's a challenge.
john
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
You´ve nailed one reason why they are so outraged.
A second part of that same reason is that most other people will not either which means a possible deflated or even mistaken image, which is seriously unfun if you have forked out for an original image.
It is not a funny matter. The ´replica´/fake business is a seriously bad problem but on the wis front it is also over the top attacked. Neither is funny. Laugeable at times yes but not so much so when the wrath of the big wigs bears down on wis fora.
GrandSeiko is setting a good example. The detailing, finish and calibers are simply not worthwhile replicable.
The Citizen too.
I'm not going to comment on the rights/wrongs of fakes in general. I do however think there is a qualitative difference here.Watches, like cars are seen as status symbols to the non-WIS. The same person that would buy and be proud of a fake is likely someone that would buy this:
And be proud it's an MR2 underneath
A fake handbag still holds keys, lipstick etc.
A fake watch tells the time just fine (in most cases)
A fake Ferrari...doesn't go anything like a real one.
Which is not necessarily all bad. The MR2 version is a good deal more useable. Ditto many a fake/homage. Many originals are safe dwellers :idea:
There's different types of fake buyers, what they want is the brand name thats the important bit, some want a watch as cheap as possible £25-£30 ish doesn't matter what's inside it could be a rubber band powering it so long as it says rolex or gucci etc on the dial, Then there's the rep geek forum types discussing the latest bezel, hands whatever modding, fiddling around with stuff. Both types would laugh in your face for suggesting it's morally wrong etc and might say tells the time same as the gen item so what, it's only a watch ?
The average fake buyer would chose a rep rolex over a gen GS it's only a ****ing seiko!!! :lol:GrandSeiko is setting a good example. The detailing, finish and calibers are simply not worthwhile replicable.
The Citizen too.
Wow
Who would have thought that this thread would end up with folks arguing that "fake" is another's homage, is another's fake, is another's replica, is another's personal project, is another's replica fake
Like we didn't see that coming
Just need the "I bought one to see if I'd like the real thing" crowd and we'll be nearing a full set
Gray
How many pages do you predict?
10 plus of the same old twaddle?
How many pages do you predict?
10 plus of the same old twaddle?
I bought one to see if I'd like it (twice) :)
I'm going to guess 5 pages.
Haven't seen any +1's yet I might put one in later.
100% with you on that, i've said previously on this forum (well replicas have been discussed before haven't they!)
that one of the most troubling things for me is the faking of all the watch extras, boxes, warranty cards (with holos), polishing clothes, straps that can make a fake sale seem legit.
100% with you on that, i've said previously on this forum (well replicas have been discussed before haven't they!)
that one of the most troubling things for me is the faking of all the watch extras, boxes, warranty cards (with holos), polishing clothes, straps that can make a fake sale seem legit.
+1
lol at your "plus one" stylee :lol:How many pages do you predict?
10 plus of the same old twaddle?
I bought one to see if I'd like it (twice) :)
I'm going to guess 5 pages.
Haven't seen any +1's yet I might put one in later.
How many pages really depends on how soon we can get to the "dangerous path" at the end of which is the "slippery slope" which leads us unstoppably to the implementation of the "Nazi" philosphy/regime/world
Gray
So an unbranded bronze ´6154´ with original design 3 piece dial and wysiwyg Molnija, Seagull or ETA movement is a fake in yoúr book?
Ah....
Snobs galore explaining the best part of the hubbub about it in wisdom. If wis-dom would buy the originals for just themselves based on conscious appreciation of quality then the whole issue would be of no consequence to nobody on here; a forum hosted by a homage maker :albino:
This thread has got me worried. I'm going to have to check that my Datejust (bought new from an AD by me in 1984), PRS5 Broadarrow, PRS-25 Everest, Damaskos DA37 and DC56 (all came from Eddie) and CWC quartz diver (from Chronomaster) are all genuine.
F.T.F.A.
I actively hunted out the "Replica" sites as I wanted to learn. I was intending to buy an Omega Speedy "Moonwatch" and didn't want to end up with a fake so set out to learn what are the "tells". In the end, I bought a new one from Goldsmiths so I'm fairly certain I bought a real one ( :lol: ) but learned a lot along the way. Like there is NO good Speedy Moonwatch fake - the subdials are all wrongly placed but there are VERY good fakes of the reduced automatic. Also, there is NO Omega Seamaster "Bond" Quartz whereas there are bloody thousands of fake auto's. So I bought a couple of quartz Bonds and felt safe in doing so.
The guys on those forums are truly passionate about watches and quite a few of them end up buying "Gens" having spent (in some cases) thousands making the very best rep there could be - certainly good enough to fool even a WIS unless you can take the back off!
However, selling a fake outside the "community" as a "Gen" is very frowned upon and will result in a ban from the forums, as will posting pictures of reps on a real watch forum and trying to pass it off as real.
The guys are passionate about watches and quite honest that they buy them as they cannot afford the real thing - even though they will spend a good proportion of the real ones cost "faking" one to be as close as possible.
Also, I think some of the guys on there genuinely like faffing about with watches - they certainly seem to be much more "Hands on" than we are - but there is no way they can afford to faff with a genuine Rolex or Pam or whatever.
I know of quite a few with movements that fool even the above averagely expert wis and would need an expert on the caliber to tell.
There is a guy in the UK who offered ´customising´ bridges as a service on the web.
After having received a letter he no longer does it AT ALL and has a neutralised DIY tutorial on line on a non public part of his site.
Exacto mon ami, fabrique belgique
Gray
When you want my opinion on a paticular watches "fake" status, just ask, but don't think to second guess my view, I am complicated and changable.So an unbranded bronze ´6154´ with original design 3 piece dial and wysiwyg Molnija, Seagull or ETA movement is a fake in yoúr book?
Ah....
Snobs galore explaining the best part of the hubbub about it in wisdom. If wis-dom would buy the originals for just themselves based on conscious appreciation of quality then the whole issue would be of no consequence to nobody on here; a forum hosted by a homage maker :albino:
So, in answer to your question:
If it had an original Rolex movement and brevet crown, but no branding on the dial, it might pass as an interesting project. If you want my insight on a specific production watch then just name it or link to it.
I must say I am intrigued that my opinion counts for so much in your eyes as, frankly, I don't care at all for yours.
Gray
The only ones I quite like are where they create a watch that might have existed in a parallel universe - ie I've seen a modded fake DSSD with massive domed acrylic crystal, yellowed "tritium" markers and shaved off crown guards. Thought it was pretty cool in a sort of weird way. :)
Probably the most sensible thing I've ever read on a Replica watches thread.
Those replica/fake geeks are a bunch of aunts.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=207644&p=2131287#p2131287
I couldn't bring myself to wear a fake watch. Specifically, a watch with a brand name that copies the original, however well executed the copy may be, you cannot fool yourself when your conscience KNOWS it's not real.
However, I could comfortably wear a PRS14, or any of the 'Homage' watches of this type. I cannot afford an original Seamaster 300, but a PRS14, is within budget, Likewise, a Blancpain is way out of reach, but........you get the drift!
I get the 'Homage' thing, and do not consider them FAKES, sterile dials are acceptable also. For me, it is an 'in the style of' thing, and it is the style of a watch that appeals to me, as long as there is a semblance of good quality about the components.
The only 'crime' IMHO, is trying to sell an item as original, when it is not.
Is it indeed a little screen printing that defines the difference between an HOMAGE and a REPLICA or FAKE? :shock:
Some of the purist homage crafters make 3646 model watches a lót closer to the historic original than Panerai themselves. For a wis who is into the historic angle of the things the Richemont Panerai 3646s are a NoNo. Even a Silix is more accurate, welded lugs and all, so if you want to have an homage and be legal, a sterile dial Silix would be the shortest route. They offer a case back with replicated ´Kampfschwimmer´ engraving even and no copyrights there. Rolex does not even want to knów :D
´Marina Militare´ is btw sort of free for recreated oldy use. The right on it´s use is currently nót held by Richemont appearantly.
As to the Fifty Fathoms: you can opt for the PRS variants or a sterile DSN which is the two combined. Three perfectly legal homages.
+1. Well, apart from my own contributions :)
All in all the preposterous assumptions and ridiculous stereotypes have been kept to a reasonable minimum in this discussion. Well done, everyone.
Well, in my case - since I know nobody is actually getting hurt, or even faintly inconvenienced, my conscience isn't troubled in the slightest.
Buying a few replicas has crossed my mind.
I have empty watch boxes where they could, possibly, be found by a burglar. My thinking is that if the burglar does find what appears to be an authentic watch in the box, then he won't bother tearing the rest of the house apart to try and find the real thing.
In my opinion the proposition that the fake watch market is perpetuated by self-taught amateur master watchmakers slaving for years to recreate a near perfect homage of some fabled mythical timepiece the precise details of which have been lost in the annuls of time is frankly cobblers. The reality surely is that like the drugs trade, prostitution, human trafficking and all other lucrative criminal activities, all fake goods including watches are in fact profiting the international organised crime syndicates. They don't care where their money comes from, fake Panerai's today, child prostitution tomorrow - oh yes.
Digger
Apart from yours? :lol: :lol:+1. Well, apart from my own contributions :)
All in all the preposterous assumptions and ridiculous stereotypes have been kept to a reasonable minimum in this discussion. Well done, everyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkNeXksKK1o
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
You own or have owned a "replica" watch but you find the concept of people owning a replica "baffling"? I have to say that I'm somewhat confused.
Kind regards
Dave
Thanks for sharing.You own or have owned a "replica" watch but you find the concept of people owning a replica "baffling"? I have to say that I'm somewhat confused.
Kind regards
Dave
Yours sincerely, faithfully, best and kind regards.
Hi hansblix2001
There seems little point in initiating a debate if you simply post sarcastic responses to those who take an opposing view. The debate would then be non-existant.
Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour? :lol:
Kind regards
Dave
My 2 bob's worth..
I have no problem with people collecting replicas AS REPLICAS, and I found that on most of the replica forums this is what people did. They weren't trying to pass them off to others as real, but most of them had a very intense interest and knowledge of watches down to the smallest detail. I'd go so far as to say that some of them know more about the tiniest details of genuine watches than a lot of genuine WIS. As has been said, they shun anyone who tries to pass off a rep as a gen (and some of these modded ones are truly impossible to tell from genuine, even with the back off)
That said, I do fail to understand why people spend up to $2000 getting a near enough perfect replica modded to a more or less perfect replica in every way to the genuine. There are loads that do. A replica to me was always something you could sling on and wear to work and not give a flying one if the bezel/case/crystal gets scratched [which most of the time it didn't as they use genuine crystals]
I don't own any now and concentrate on my own genuine ones, but I can understand people who do, but the main crux of the matter is..That they are not trying to pass them off to others as real
if I have £400 to spare and need a watch. I'd much rather spend it on a nice vintage piece or start looking at offerings from eddie, Steinhart etc instead of spending it on a new superlumed, double AR'ed replica
:lol:Here is how it seems to me:
We're enthusiasts and we find originality and authenticity in watches to be of massive importance. We find it difficult to understand that not everyone might care about these things as we do.
Then there are lots and lots of people, probably the majority (especially if taken worldwide), who really aren't that bothered. It doesn't matter to them one way or another. Fake or not, it's just a watch to them (or trainer, or shirt, or handbag, or sunglasses). Sure, this horrifies us, but we need to understand that our interests and beliefs (and the seriousness with which we take them) are in the minority.
And then there are a few others, the 'replica' community, who are as geeky and OCDish about 'replicas' (i.e. what we call fakes) as we are about genuine watches.
At the end of the day the world is a big place and there are a variety of interest groups. We are what we are, others are what they are. We can judge them in moral terms and they can judge us.
But the main thing I think is not to get too concerned with it. If you just don't understand or grok the repllica geeks then don't worry about it. They do their thing. They probably don't get us either. And the great bulk of people in the middle definitely don't get us. Most people find our truly geeky interest in watches to be as baffling as the replica geeks are to you.
Ermmmm...
Did I just read a balanced, intelligent comment on an internet forum???
I think you risk being banned from the whole internet for life sir.
:)
Brilliant!
Probably the most intelligent post on the subject of fakes. Ever.
I would like to add two things to this hackneyed discussion:
1. I own several fake Ralph Lauren polos. I've tied the real ones and the (good) fakes are near enough as identical as far as I can tell, and about 20% of the cost. No doubt there are people on fashion forums who consider me despicable for buying and wearing these. Probably people on here, too. I don't care. I wouldn't lie as to the origin if asked, but nobody has ever asked.
2. I really appreciate the fact that Eddie lets discussions like this occur, no matter how oft repeated. As we all know many forums would have closed this topic after the first post. Thanks Eddie.
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