Helium release valves...

[buddy13]

Ok I will admit it. I HATE Helium release valves (though I have 2 so equipped watches in my most modest collection)...in my opinion a dive watch manufacturer should not let He infiltrate the watch in the first place, so my hat's off to Seiko Engineers...

But I am curious as to whether you like having an HRV on your watch or not..and if so do you prefer a manual or automatic HRV?

I'll start....I'll rather NOT have an HRV, but if my watch has one then I prefer it to be manual. Reason is that this has an extra barrier against water intrusion...



So what are your thoughts?

[Elwood]

in my opinion a dive watch manufacturer should not let He infiltrate the watch in the first place, so my hat's off to Seiko Engineers...

My understanding was that He is so small it is not reasonably practical to keep it out so Seiko saturation watches allow it to pass through the seals without risk of the crystal popping out.

I don't mind automatic HEV but i'm not a fan of the manual ones on Omegas. I also think they are a bigger risk as they can be left open and repeated opening could cause wear, damage or dirt to compromise the seal. And if you forgot to open it again it could cause the problem it seeks to avoid.

[seadog1408]

auto for me, not only does it IMO make the case shape tidier, i have in the past forgotten the manual. :wink:

[lysanderxiii]

Actually, helium will eventually enter the case, no matter what type of rubber is used.

The questions is whether or not the increase pressure will pop the crystal off in the event of rapid decompression.

If you use a mechanical crystal retention, such as in the PRS-50 or Benrus Type I/II, it cannot, no matter what. These watches, while not specifically tested (to my knowledge, anyway) to ISO 6425 Appendix A, should pass without the need for a pressure relief valve.

[buddy13]

Actually, helium will eventually enter the case, no matter what type of rubber is used.

The questions is whether or not the increase pressure will pop the crystal off in the event of rapid decompression.

If you use a mechanical crystal retention, such as in the PRS-50 or Benrus Type I/II, it cannot, no matter what. These watches, while not specifically tested (to my knowledge, anyway) to ISO 6425 Appendix A, should pass without the need for a pressure relief valve.

I have to disgaree...

The crystal on Seiko/Orient SAT diving watches do not have an undercut (lip) that prevents them from popping out of the retaining ring. In fact the 'crystal' retaining ring you are referring to might not be a 'crystal' retaining ring at all and it sole purpose is to compress the seal to the sides and down, so it is more of a ''crystal gasket' compression ring...

Also Ikuo Tokunaga (Seiko Diver's Chief Engineer) confirmed that due to the material and shape used for the sealing material He CANNOT infiltrate the watch as seen below.

http://www.thewatchsite.com/index.php/topic,285.0.html

Authored by Tokunaga / Outremer2

"Dear Outremer2-san,

Our research and development was done as the perfect He-mixed-gas diver's watch of the 6159 professional 600m diver's watch in 1975.

We designed the diver's watch as the development target that the inner pressure of the watch case did not go up in high-pressure helium mixture gas like Rolex etc., and the development of the special quality gasket of the material of Improved-IIR(Isobutylene-isoprene rubber) and in the structure development of the watch case we used the glass gasket of L type and one-piece case became the conclusive factor in the He-tightness.

As the result of the experiment, the penetration of helium gas is suppressed by about 1/100 to the conventional watch case, the inner pressure of the case does not turn into high pressure and the diver's watch of the ideal saturation diving specification which does not need "helium gas escape valve" is completed, and the SEIKO professional diver's watches lead the diver's watch world after that watch as "a diver's watch which is proud of the highest water- tightness and air-tightness in the world."

Please use forever regularly those SEIKO products which are proud of the excellent performance if you please.

Sincerely yours,
Ikuo Tokunaga"

[kumimajava]

i'm not a fan of HR-valves, completely unnecessary clutter on most watches... the thing i like least about the Seamasters :(

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Not fussed - never, ever had a problem.

Dont understand the angst?

[china]

I think it's kind of part of the look of a Seamaster. I like the he-valves on mine.

[Top]

i'm not a fan of HR-valves, completely unnecessary clutter on most watches... the thing i like least about the Seamasters :(

+1

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Actually, helium will eventually enter the case, no matter what type of rubber is used.

The questions is whether or not the increase pressure will pop the crystal off in the event of rapid decompression.

If you use a mechanical crystal retention, such as in the PRS-50 or Benrus Type I/II, it cannot, no matter what. These watches, while not specifically tested (to my knowledge, anyway) to ISO 6425 Appendix A, should pass without the need for a pressure relief valve.

I have to disgaree...

The crystal on Seiko/Orient SAT diving watches do not have an undercut (lip) that prevents them from popping out of the retaining ring. In fact the 'crystal' retaining ring you are referring to might not be a 'crystal' retaining ring at all and it sole purpose is to compress the seal to the sides and down, so it is more of a ''crystal gasket' compression ring...

Also Ikuo Tokunaga (Seiko Diver's Chief Engineer) confirmed that due to the material and shape used for the sealing material He CANNOT infiltrate the watch as seen below.

http://www.thewatchsite.com/index.php/topic,285.0.html

Authored by Tokunaga / Outremer2

"Dear Outremer2-san,

Our research and development was done as the perfect He-mixed-gas diver's watch of the 6159 professional 600m diver's watch in 1975.

We designed the diver's watch as the development target that the inner pressure of the watch case did not go up in high-pressure helium mixture gas like Rolex etc., and the development of the special quality gasket of the material of Improved-IIR(Isobutylene-isoprene rubber) and in the structure development of the watch case we used the glass gasket of L type and one-piece case became the conclusive factor in the He-tightness.

As the result of the experiment, the penetration of helium gas is suppressed by about 1/100 to the conventional watch case, the inner pressure of the case does not turn into high pressure and the diver's watch of the ideal saturation diving specification which does not need "helium gas escape valve" is completed, and the SEIKO professional diver's watches lead the diver's watch world after that watch as "a diver's watch which is proud of the highest water- tightness and air-tightness in the world."

Please use forever regularly those SEIKO products which are proud of the excellent performance if you please.

Sincerely yours,
Ikuo Tokunaga"

He will eventually penetrate - end of.

[Rev-O]

He will eventually penetrate - end of.

Wet myself laughing at that! Who's "he"?

I hated the one on my Seamaster.

it spoiled the lines and the symmetry and looked like a "third nipple" mutation - "oh, look, it's got an extra crown *there*"

[964RS]

Not fussed - never, ever had a problem.

Dont understand the angst?

+2

How deep are you all diving?

I thought the HEV was really for saturation divers at significant depths for prolonged periods of time?

Not for when you are in the bath.... :?

[thenikjones]

[quote=Rev-O]

He will eventually penetrate - end of.

Wet myself laughing at that! Who's "he"?

I hated the one on my Seamaster.

it spoiled the lines and the symmetry and looked like a "third nipple" mutation - "oh, look, it's got an extra crown *there*"[/quote:zvftz4g2]

'He' is the chemical symbol for helium :roll:

I agree with you RE the Seamaster He-valve, ruins the watch for me.If you have to have one, make it an auto, flush with the case.

[SSK007]

I dont mind either way, but sometimes i think it is abit of a gimmick!

[Rev-O]

I dont mind either way, but sometimes i think it is abit of a gimmick!

No way!

I often have to do a saturation drive for work and it's no fun - biggest risk? The bends. Especially in the wet.

[scrog10]

I think its an improvement in looks by not having an HE valve on a Seamaster And I'm not sure it serves a purpose to most of us.

[Relativity]

I too wish the Seamaster didn't have the extra crown.

Thanks to the members who added some technical input to the thread -- very interesting reading :D

Do those of you who are divers prefer the auto valve over the manual? I assume that an auto is one less thing to remember during a dive?

Presumably the two systems both perform as well as each other too?

[cad monkey]

I was under the impression that HE valves were a complete gimmick, only of any possible use to professional divers using a decompression chamber, and even then the same effect can be acheived by simply unscrewing the crown, thus venting off any high pressure helium that may be present

I am of course open to the possibility that I may be talking bollocks

[ralphy]

I was under the impression that HE valves were a complete gimmick, only of any possible use to professional divers using a decompression chamber, and even then the same effect can be acheived by simply unscrewing the crown, thus venting off any high pressure helium that may be present

I am of course open to the possibility that I may be talking bollocks

Not bollocks at all.

:wink:

R

[lysanderxiii]

Actually, helium will eventually enter the case, no matter what type of rubber is used.

As the result of the experiment, the penetration of helium gas is suppressed by about 1/100 to the conventional watch case...

Still gets in.......

Just a matter of how long before the pressure equalizes.

A lock-in crystal makes the whole question moot.....

[dkpw]

I too wish the Seamaster didn't have the extra crown.

Indeed, the Rolex version of the HEV is much more elegant.

[Nealywheelie]

''Automatic'' HEV on the 'ol Breity.......3000mts/10000ft, & before you ask it has been worn in the bath. :lol:



Cheers.

[CardShark]

I dont mind either way, but sometimes i think it is abit of a gimmick!

No way!

I often have to do a saturation drive for work and it's no fun - biggest risk? The bends. Especially in the wet.

:lol:

[buddy13]

Actually, helium will eventually enter the case, no matter what type of rubber is used.

As the result of the experiment, the penetration of helium gas is suppressed by about 1/100 to the conventional watch case...

Still gets in.......

Just a matter of how long before the pressure equalizes.

A lock-in crystal makes the whole question moot.....

The Crystal on a Seiko/Orient SAT diving watch is NOT mechanically locked. The retaining ring just compresses the gaskets and with the right amount of force from the inside the crystal can be removed WITHOUT removing the retaining ring...
- I have seen a graph where a Seiko SAT diver exposed to a pressurised He envinronment only suffered VERY minimal internal pressure increase which leveled off at a very low value, so unless proven otherwise I will not believe that a high He pressure will be reached inside the watch. I would like to know why you do not believe this and proof for these claims....

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Actually, helium will eventually enter the case, no matter what type of rubber is used.

As the result of the experiment, the penetration of helium gas is suppressed by about 1/100 to the conventional watch case...

Still gets in.......

Just a matter of how long before the pressure equalizes.

A lock-in crystal makes the whole question moot.....

The Crystal on a Seiko/Orient SAT diving watch is NOT mechanically locked. The retaining ring just compresses the gaskets and with the right amount of force from the inside the crystal can be removed WITHOUT removing the retaining ring...
- I have seen a graph where a Seiko SAT diver exposed to a pressurised He envinronment only suffered VERY minimal internal pressure increase which leveled off at a very low value, so unless proven otherwise I will not believe that a high He pressure will be reached inside the watch. I would like to know why you do not believe this and proof for these claims....

I suspect you are on a crusade against He valves but for the sake of the discussion......

I also suspect the graph's were Seiko's?

In stasis - where the diver and the watch are at saturation there is no problem whatsoever (this is often missed).

It does not take much internal pressure to 'pop' a watch but if it's bolted together well enough then it will hold and the reverse of the He ingress will occur.

If the watch is always kept in the dry environment of Saturation then it does not need to be waterproof at all and HE ingress/egress is not an issue (other than to those who want an He escape valve!).

Claims are just that.......

[Pleiades81]

I don't think the He valve ruins a seamasters lines. i think it adds something....imo the one posted earlier looks like something is missing by not having it.

Lets face it, a tiny fraction of anyone buying a SM will ever even get close to using the valve and even then it probably isn't solely necessary, but its tech, its cool and I don't understand why it makes people angry!

[Dunnster]

The manual He on the Seamaster is another great example of marketing and something that impresses non-WIS in the pub...."wow, you can dive 300m without getting the bends"

[lysanderxiii]

Actually, ....

As the result...

Still gets in........

The Crystal on a Seiko/Orient SAT diving watch is NOT mechanically locked. The retaining ring just compresses the gaskets and with the right amount of force from the inside the crystal can be removed WITHOUT removing the retaining ring...
- I have seen a graph where a Seiko SAT diver exposed to a pressurised He envinronment only suffered VERY minimal internal pressure increase which leveled off at a very low value, so unless proven otherwise I will not believe that a high He pressure will be reached inside the watch. I would like to know why you do not believe this and proof for these claims....

I never said it was.

I just stated that if you do lock the crystal in place, you don't need fancy expensive gaskets or fussy little valves....

[olofce]

I think its an improvement in looks by not having an HE valve on a Seamaster And I'm not sure it serves a purpose to most of us.

I think it does look more clean without the HE valve. But on the other hand I think it does look more like a tool, more useful, with the HE valve. Even though as you say, for most owners it probably isn't. Guess I just got used to that a Seamaster should have it

[witti]

I own a Marinemaster 300 and no He-valve issues here :D

[DimGR]

the Seamaster's He valve is automatic not manual . You only unscrew the little crown but the valve inside operates automatically

[lysanderxiii]

But, if you don't unscrew the little knob?

[buddy13]

Actually, ....

As the result...

Still gets in........

The Crystal on a Seiko/Orient SAT diving watch is NOT mechanically locked. The retaining ring just compresses the gaskets and with the right amount of force from the inside the crystal can be removed WITHOUT removing the retaining ring...
- I have seen a graph where a Seiko SAT diver exposed to a pressurised He envinronment only suffered VERY minimal internal pressure increase which leveled off at a very low value, so unless proven otherwise I will not believe that a high He pressure will be reached inside the watch. I would like to know why you do not believe this and proof for these claims....

I never said it was.

I just stated that if you do lock the crystal in place, you don't need fancy expensive gaskets or fussy little valves....

Ok I now get your point.Sorry but I misunderstood your post...

[Clem]

These valves were created to enable the watch case to maintain equal pressure inside with the ambient surrounding pressure.

The newer automatic valves similar to the type used on the Rolex watches work well under saturation diving conditions, although it's worth stating that the earlier type of valve on the 5513's 1665's etc were prone to failure, occasionally.

Of course most good diving watches can sustain saturation diving conditions and can cope with decompression schedules assuming the crown is unscrewed/loosened, but then of course as has been stated is no longer completely waterproof.

Also it's worth pointing out that the % relative humidity inside a saturation diving system can run quite high at times.

[lysanderxiii]

These valves were created to enable the watch case to maintain equal pressure inside with the ambient surrounding pressure.

The newer automatic valves similar to the type used on the Rolex watches work well under saturation diving conditions, although it's worth stating that the earlier type of valve on the 5513's 1665's etc were prone to failure, occasionally.

Of course most good diving watches can sustain saturation diving conditions and can cope with decompression schedules assuming the crown is unscrewed/loosened, but then of course as has been stated is no longer completely waterproof.

Also it's worth pointing out that the % relative humidity inside a saturation diving system can run quite high at times.

The pressure will actually never equalize, at least by action of the valve. It will always maintain a higher pressure on the inside of the watch.

Below is a rough diagram of how an automatic pressure relief valve works. The effective area on both sides of the piston are the same because the metal-to-metal seal in not air-tight and it only seals on both side of the rubber o-ring. So, the pressure on the inside must be greater than the pressure on the outside plus the strength of the spring to open the valve. Because the pressure on the inside is always higher, the air flow will always be outward. Therefore, outside moisture cannot get inside the case.

[Clem]

I was referring to possible moisture ingress on a watch case that has it's crown unscrewed, whilst in a saturation diving system undergoing decompression.

[Smudge45]

I'm not a fan either. I would be all over the planet ocean if they didn't have a he valve, ruins the looks of so many great watches

[ants]

I was under the impression that HE valves were a complete gimmick, only of any possible use to professional divers using a decompression chamber, and even then the same effect can be acheived by simply unscrewing the crown, thus venting off any high pressure helium that may be present

I am of course open to the possibility that I may be talking bollocks

You're bang on the money!

[seadog1408]

I was under the impression that HE valves were a complete gimmick, only of any possible use to professional divers using a decompression chamber, and even then the same effect can be acheived by simply unscrewing the crown, thus venting off any high pressure helium that may be present

I am of course open to the possibility that I may be talking bollocks

You're bang on the money!

yep , dont let a bit of moisture in your watch put you off. :D

[lysanderxiii]

I was under the impression that HE valves were a complete gimmick, only of any possible use to professional divers using a decompression chamber, and even then the same effect can be acheived by simply unscrewing the crown, thus venting off any high pressure helium that may be present

I am of course open to the possibility that I may be talking bollocks

You're bang on the money!

No, unscrewing the crown does not release the internal pressure. There is a second gasket:

[Quackers]

I too fail to understand their presence - other than as a sales gimmick. I also think they look ugly.
I have a Breitling which is rated to 500m/1650ft which does not have a He valve. Are Breitling wrong?
And surely, if your biggest worry during a sudden decompression is whether the crystal will pop off your watch your priorities are screwed up! :blackeye:
Or am I missing something?

[seadog1408]

Or am I missing something?

yes

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Or am I missing something?

yes

:lol:

[Quackers]

Ah, ok :lol:

[Nealywheelie]

Ah, ok :lol:

Go back to page 1 of this thread and re-read. Having done that, write a brief essay on why He valves have a valid function, or not, for that matter, and post it here. You're not allowed out until this is done. :D

[lysanderxiii]

Ah, ok :lol:

Go back to page 1 of this thread and re-read. Having done that, write a brief essay on why He valves have a valid function, or not, for that matter, and post it here. You're not allowed out until this is done. :D

Do they have a valid function?

Of course they do, they keep the crystal from popping out if the internal pressure gets too high.

Can it be done without a pressure relief valve? Yes.

Will you find it a useful? Only if you do saturation dives.

Essay not required.

[Quackers]

Excellent! No homework required :lol:

[Omegamanic]

I like them - I prefer Auto - but would have to agree any degradation of a non HEV watch designed to stop - or limit He penetration will result in a watch with possible consequences - this is all irrelevant to me, as I'll never need anything more than 100m in my life (50 is probably more like it.).

[cad monkey]

I was under the impression that HE valves were a complete gimmick, only of any possible use to professional divers using a decompression chamber, and even then the same effect can be acheived by simply unscrewing the crown, thus venting off any high pressure helium that may be present

I am of course open to the possibility that I may be talking bollocks

You're bang on the money!

yep , dont let a bit of moisture in your watch put you off. :D

But surely you only unscrew the crown in the moistureless confines of the decompression chamber?

[seadog1408]

[quote=cad monkey]

I was under the impression that HE valves were a complete gimmick, only of any possible use to professional divers using a decompression chamber, and even then the same effect can be acheived by simply unscrewing the crown, thus venting off any high pressure helium that may be present

I am of course open to the possibility that I may be talking bollocks

You're bang on the money!

yep , dont let a bit of moisture in your watch put you off. :D

But surely you only unscrew the crown in the moistureless confines of the decompression chamber?[/quote:1ak4q8k8]

there talks a man who has obviously never been in one :wink: , they are humid mate even the good ones run at 60% humidity ish.