Still playing with a possible Speedbird 3

[Si]

for someone who phoned distraught that the SB2 was discontinued

:D

So you do a kind of Samaritans style WIS phone counselling service?

[Dave E]

The SBII is discontinued?

[Crusader]

The SBII is discontinued?

Sold out, and no point in a new run, what with the SB3 in the wings, I assume.

[Steven]

so what was the final consensus on the size? Will it be 38mm or 40mm? I am hoping for 38mm 8)

[Dave E]

The SBII is discontinued?

Sold out, and no point in a new run, what with the SB3 in the wings, I assume.

Makes sense. Glad I've still got mine, then (I did consider selling it a while back).

[rickf]

I've been tracking the development of the SBII in my pilot watch comparison spreadsheet. Here's what I have for a summary of the specs so far. Eddie (or anyone else) please correct me if I have anything wrong:

Movement: 2824 (chronometer grade?)
Case diameter: 39mm (w/o crown)
Lug width: 20mm
Lug length: 46-47mm (tip to tip)
Thickness: ~11mm
Crown: screw down
Water resist: 100m (?)
Anitmagnetic: 80,000 A/m
Crystal: domed sapphire (AR coating?)
Dial: matte black, sterile (i.e. no wording), white painted numerals, markers and chapter ring
Hands: Type 48, silver/lumed
Lume: hands and cardinal markers (C3?)
Date: located @ 6
Case finish: brushed
Bracelet/strap: steel bracelet
Bars: springbars
Price: undetermined


Rick

[Dave Essel]

Thank you, Rick, for reoutlined spec. Very useful for keeping things clear.

I'm definitely want one of these, in particular if:

- 100m waterproof. I like to be able to think I can swim in whatever watch I happen to have on.

- AR underside only. Smearing and strange tints from the outside coating.

Just my vote on those two subjects.

[BTW, how difficult is it to remove an outside AR. I've seen remarks elsewhere in this forum about it (Dremel polisher etc...) Can it be done by hand? Can one cause any serious problems by trying? I'd consider doing this tomy Damasko as I find the smears and occasional mauve reflections an irritant]

[Crusader]

Thank you, Rick, for reoutlined spec. Very useful for keeping things clear.

I'm definitely want one of these, in particular if:

- 100m waterproof. I like to be able to think I can swim in whatever watch I happen to have on.

- AR underside only. Smearing and strange tints from the outside coating.

Just my vote on those two subjects.

Seconded. I might add that since Fricker is making the case, it would be good to test the crystal against loss of outside pressure to 0.3 bar (0.7 below normal); that will be the same rating that IWC watches have.

[Watch Dilettante]

... I might add that since Fricker is making the case, it would be good to test the crystal against loss of outside pressure to 0.3 bar (0.7 below normal); that will be the same rating that IWC watches have.

Martin, will you (once again) please explain to me why I need to care about this part of the spec? Isn't this only possible aboard aircraft, and even then, very unlikely to be experienced by a layman (i.e. non-aircrew member)? And, even if it does happen, won't all involved have much more important things on their mind than the current time???

[Crusader]

... I might add that since Fricker is making the case, it would be good to test the crystal against loss of outside pressure to 0.3 bar (0.7 below normal); that will be the same rating that IWC watches have.

Martin, will you (once again) please explain to me why I need to care about this part of the spec? Isn't this only possible aboard aircraft, and even then, very unlikely to be experienced by a layman (i.e. non-aircrew member)? And, even if it does happen, won't all involved have much more important things on their mind than the current time???

Of course the spec is pure overengineering (as is a 500-Meter depth-rating), but it will put the SB3 technically into the same league as the Sinn, Damasko and IWC aviation watches (antimagnetic inner case plus crystal secured against loss of outsidde pressure - they are all marketed with these two specs).

As Fricker can test at least to the IWC benchmark of 0.3 bar, I think it would be smart to include this spec. as to bring the SB3 up to par with the other aviation watches.

Hope that helps. :)

[Watch Dilettante]

Of course the spec is pure overengineering (as is a 500-Meter depth-rating), but it will put the SB3 technically into the same league as the Sinn, Damasko and IWC aviation watches (antimagnetic inner case plus crystal secured against loss of outside pressure - they are all marketed with these two specs).

OK, I concede this point, since you have drawn the analogy to over-engineered dive watch specs... :?

As Fricker can test at least to the IWC benchmark of 0.3 bar, I think it would be smart to include this spec. as to bring the SB3 up to par with the other aviation watches.

OK, that sounds reasonable. too. 8)

Hope that helps. :)

Yes, it has. I'm much happier about the whole thing, now! Thanks! :wink:

[Watch Dilettante]

OK, so where are we on the movement for this watch? I must admit that I'm confused...

Last I heard, the 2892 was playing hard to get, which greatly saddened me, as I was mostly interested in this venture because I wanted a watch with that movement.

So, let me get this straight -- one of the design goals for this project was to make something slimmer than the Quad 10 (since that is an extant example of a larger verson of this type of watch, but the chief complaint of owners thereof is the excessive height of the case). Right?

That (goal of a slimmer profile) was one reason to choose the (much slimmer) 2892, so how does it help to use a chronometer grade 2824, whatever the cost savings and improved availability thereof might be??? Has there been some significant height reduction somewhere else (e.g. case back, as suggested earlier) ??? If not, won't this watch be just about as high as the Quad 10?

[rickf]

My understanding from Eddie is that a 2824 is the only option unless he wanted to delay the project 18 months to wait for the 2892. I don't think that kind of delay is acceptable.

He believes the added height of the 2824 (which is 1mm more than the 2892) can be compensated for somewhere else. That would most likely be in the caseback. The thinking here is that Fricker always makes casebacks suitable for 1000m divers therefore they are over-spec'd for this particular application. Hopefully I got all that right Eddie.

Rick

[Crusader]

So, let me get this straight -- one of the design goals for this project was to make something slimmer than the Quad 10 (since that is an extant example of a larger verson of this type of watch, but the chief complaint of owners thereof is the excessive height of the case). Right?

My understanding is that the Quad 10 is too long (52mm), and too heavy ... I haven't heard complaints about its height (12.95mm, about the same as the PRS-53's 12.75mm) per se, but I may have overheard criticism of its height as I determined relatively early that the watch was too long and heavy for my taste. My ex-PRS-53 certainly isn't too tall for an office watch.

[Watch Dilettante]

My understanding from Eddie is that a 2824 is the only option unless he wanted to delay the project 18 months to wait for the 2892. I don't think that kind of delay is acceptable.

I may be in the minority here, but I'd rather wait and get it right, and not jump the gun just because the current run of SB2s is sold out. Can't Fricker produce an interim run of SB2s while this is being sorted out -- why the rush?? :( (Unfortunately, it was the 2892 that really was making my heart go bumpity-bump here, as I've got two SB1s, one SB2 and one Quad 10 -- you could say I've got enough, indeed probably more than enough, versions of this watch with a 2824 inside.) :wink:

He believes the added height of the 2824 (which is 1mm more than the 2892) can be compensated for somewhere else. That would most likely be in the caseback. The thinking here is that Fricker always makes casebacks suitable for 1000m divers therefore they are over-spec'd for this particular application. Hopefully I got all that right Eddie.

I think this is just a theory, which remains to be proven. If the watch can truly be built using the 2824 without compromising the < 11mm height spec or the antimag spec, then I'm still willing to play along, despite my personal 2824 pilot watch 'glut'... :? I'd just like to see the final height spec and antimag spec stated definitively, however. Eddie?

[Watch Dilettante]

So, let me get this straight -- one of the design goals for this project was to make something slimmer than the Quad 10 (since that is an extant example of a larger verson of this type of watch, but the chief complaint of owners thereof is the excessive height of the case). Right?

My understanding is that the Quad 10 is too long (52mm), and too heavy ... I haven't heard complaints about its height (12.95mm, about the same as the PRS-53's 12.75mm) per se, but I may have overheard criticism of its height as I determined relatively early that the watch was too long and heavy for my taste. My ex-PRS-53 certainly isn't too tall for an office watch.

I direct your attention to the following quote from Eddie from page 3 of this thread:

I would like to use the 2892 because I want it chronometer grade but the main reason is that I would like to keep it to a maximum 11mm thick with the anti-magnetic cage and dust cover. Probably the only criticism owners of Bill Yao's Quad 10 have is that it's too thick.

Eddie

And, as a current Quad 10 owner, I can definitively state that it is indeed too thick. Which is, of course, what drew me to this project to begin with... :wink:

[Crusader]

Thanks, Brian - I must have overlooked that.

I am curious that you find the Quad too thick ... I am usually a stickler for flat watches (my main gripe with the 7750-movement), but I find the height of the PRS-53 excellent. But maybe this is an optical trick as the low case shoulders and doemd acrylic make the watch look flatter than it really is?

11mm (same as a 656, also 2824-powered) sounds an excellent goal, but I must say that with those antimagnetic specs, I am not so much concerned with height as long as it can be kept to about 12mm. Less would be more, of course. :wink:

[Watch Dilettante]

Thanks, Brian - I must have overlooked that.

I am curious that you find the Quad too thick ... I am usually a stickler for flat watches (my main gripe with the 7750-movement), but I find the height of the PRS-53 excellent. But maybe this is an optical trick as the low case shoulders and doemd acrylic make the watch look flatter than it really is?

11mm (same as a 656, also 2824-powered) sounds an excellent goal, but I must say that with those antimagnetic specs, I am not so much concerned with height as long as it can be kept to about 12mm. Less would be more, of course. :wink:

Well, I've just about shot my wad on this. No need to piss off Eddie further (especially after that Hong Kong thing from tagesol in the other thread)! And I have no need to perpetuate Don Quixote's legacy over it, either. I'll just have to wait and see if the final product is meant for me; even if not, I'm sure there will be many happy buyers thereof! :) And, once again, Eddie, thanks for the freedom of expression we have here -- why go anywhere else, guys???

[swanbourne]

The 2892 really is difficult to get hold of for manufacturers outside Switzerland; ETA simply won't supply what they call their "premium range" to non-Swiss manufacturers, which is why most of the non-Swiss have Swiss purchasing agents. Of course, this adds to the cost because of the purchasing agent's mark-up.

This may sound like restrictive trading practices and of course it is, don't forget that operating a cartel is legal in all but two of the Swiss Cantons and don't forget also that Switzerland is not a member of the EEC and therefore not subject to its laws.

Eddie

[pplateau]

With all the interest in this one Eddie, why don't you push up the unveiling date and sell a million of em??? Put me down for one pls !!!

Dick

[Horologos]

Yes please I want one as well. PLEASE
Simon

Judging from the pic on page 1 the SB3 will be very similar to the Mark XV (only visible difference is the date). To be honest I was hoping for something more in the direction of older Marks, especially with non-serife numerals as well as longer and smaller hour indices. So I would be curious if the design is already "written in stone"? Although I am quite interested in this project I am a bit reluctant to buy a MK XV hommage.

[oldsoak]

Now heres a thought from a neophyte - are there Japanese mechanical movements availiable that Eddie might use ?
:twisted:


....I'll get me coat....

[Bernard]

Now heres a thought from a neophyte - are there Japanese mechanical movements availiable that Eddie might use ?
:twisted:


....I'll get me coat....

Hum... well, it would need hacking and handwinding. Preferably a very durable movement....

Seiko 6R15????

I'm really interested about Seiko: would Seiko be willing to sell movements?
If so: at what price?

[raysablade]

would Seiko be willing to sell movements?
If so: at what price?

They sell this one with hands!. If that's retail I suspect would be around $10 in Eddie sized bulk.

The new auto is essentially the same so I can't see it being worth more than $20-30. However I suspect we will have to wait a year or two for whole movements to appear for sale.

I read somewhere that the strategy for the 6r15 is to capitalise on ETAs restrictions so its probably just a matter of time.

[Gert]

I wouldn't hesitate to get another watch with the Seiko 6R15 or 7S26 (I have several), but rightly or wrongly, they do not have the same attraction to most buyers as a Swiss job. Another movement to consider (with the same image caveats) is the Miyota 82XX series. But unlike Seiko, Miyota (Citizen) actually makes a major business out of providing movements to others. There's a look inside here:
http://www.rolexreferencepage.com/miyota/miyota1.html

...but from a marketing perspective an ETA movement will provide the safest brand...

Cheers,
Gert

[th6252]

I wouldn't hesitate to get another watch with the Seiko 6R15 or 7S26 (I have several), but rightly or wrongly, they do not have the same attraction to most buyers as a Swiss job. Another movement to consider (with the same image caveats) is the Miyota 82XX series. But unlike Seiko, Miyota (Citizen) actually makes a major business out of providing movements to others. There's a look inside here:
http://www.rolexreferencepage.com/miyota/miyota1.html

...but from a marketing perspective an ETA movement will provide the safest brand...

Cheers,
Gert

i know that in all likelihood, you guys are kidding about the japanese movements(i hope?). but in all honesty, it would be pure sacrilege to be putting an asian movement in a mark 11 style watch...just unconscionable.
i'd rather have eddie just not make the watch than to know that this abomination would be in existence...ok a bit over the top, but my feelings aren't too far off from that. :evil:

[Bernard]

I would never find a 7s26 (poor precision, no handwinding, no hacking) or a Miyota (one-way winding, poor finish, no handwinding) acceptable, but a 6r15 would be fine.

Lets face it: ETA has quite a terrible way of doing business.
Seiko produces good movements, very durable and, on a top of things: reasonably priced!

Eddie uses cases from Germany, Swiss movements and puts "England" on the dial. Don't get me wrong: that's absolutely fine with me, but it isn't "original". Wouldn't you define that as a "sacrilege" as well?

[swanbourne]

I would never find a 7s26 (poor precision, no handwinding, no hacking) or a Miyota (one-way winding, poor finish, no handwinding) acceptable, but a 6r15 would be fine.

Lets face it: ETA has quite a terrible way of doing business.
Seiko produces good movements, very durable and, on a top of things: reasonably priced!

Eddie uses cases from Germany, Swiss movements and puts "England" on the dial. Don't get me wrong: that's absolutely fine with me, but it isn't "original". Wouldn't you define that as a "sacrilege" as well?

But I don't put "Made in England" on the dial Bernard, the "England" merely indicates the origin of the brand.

Eddie

[Bernard]

I know Eddie, that wasn't the point I wanted to make, to me all that mattered was, that th6252 used terms like "unconscionable", "abomination" and "pure sacrilege", where a watch that is built from German and Swiss parts and sold with "England" on the dial isn't exactly like the "original" MK 11 either!

:wink:

So, bottomline, I don't see any problem in using 6R15 mov'ts.

Perhaps you can give us your opinion on this matter?

Can you also share your opinion on mechanical chronograph-movements from Seagull and Poljot??

[swanbourne]

Where there is no commercially available Swiss movement then you use what you can get. The Valjoux 7733 used in the original Hamilton, CWC and Precista military chronographs is no longer available so the Poljot 3133, as an almost identical movement, is acceptable IMHO.

I haven't decided on the Seagull yet, apparently it still need some work to be as reliable as it could be. Besides, I don't have a project for it. :wink:

Eddie

[Kamraj]

I can't for the life of me see the problem with putting an "asian" movement into a Mk II homage: I could see that some would not like a chinese movement for ethical reasons, and I wouldn't want one because I don't trust the QC. I can see, as Bernard says, that a Seiko 7S26 or Miyota 8*** would not be great, but if it hacks, handwinds and keeps good time, what's the problem? As I see it, the aim is to make a quality watch at an affordable price in the style of an old classic. Maybe I can't see this 'cos I'm asian myself :D

Anyway Eddie, is the 6R15 a possibility? I'm rather bored of ETAs as it is.

Kamraj

[swanbourne]

I wouldn't know where to buy Seiko movements. Anyone?

Eddie

[VinceR]

I wouldn't know where to buy Seiko movements. Anyone?

Eddie

You can buy all kinds of movements from here:

http://www.cousinsuk.com/default.aspx?d ... oupid=1704

Although I'm not sure that any of the Seiko movements are mechanical!

/vince ..

[swanbourne]

Ah yes but I want them wholesale. :D

Eddie

[VinceR]

Ah yes but I want them wholesale. :D

Eddie

Of course you do! What was I thinking! I think I should get back down the pub, obviously a couple of pints wasn't enough!

/vince ..

[th6252]

I know Eddie, that wasn't the point I wanted to make, to me all that mattered was, that th6252 used terms like "unconscionable", "abomination" and "pure sacrilege", where a watch that is built from German and Swiss parts and sold with "England" on the dial isn't exactly like the "original" MK 11 either!

:wink:

So, bottomline, I don't see any problem in using 6R15 mov'ts.

Perhaps you can give us your opinion on this matter?

Can you also share your opinion on mechanical chronograph-movements from Seagull and Poljot??

to me, besides the actual design, what matters most is the "heart" of this project...again, to me. as long as that stays swiss, i'm ok with wherever the rest of the parts are sourced.
please do NOT get my thoughts of not wanting an asian movement in a mark 11 style watch confused with a "hatred" for asian movements. i have 3 seikos, one with the beloved 6R15 of which you speak. absolutely love all of them.

why should i need to share my thoughts on the other movements of which you speak, and why would it matter? i really don't have an opiniion of those as they are of no interest to me.

i'm sorry you were offended with my opinion, it's only worth exactly what you paid for it...

and for the record, i'm asian as well.

[Bernard]

I know Eddie, that wasn't the point I wanted to make, to me all that mattered was, that th6252 used terms like "unconscionable", "abomination" and "pure sacrilege", where a watch that is built from German and Swiss parts and sold with "England" on the dial isn't exactly like the "original" MK 11 either!

:wink:

So, bottomline, I don't see any problem in using 6R15 mov'ts.

Perhaps you can give us your opinion on this matter?

Can you also share your opinion on mechanical chronograph-movements from Seagull and Poljot??

to me, besides the actual design, what matters most is the "heart" of this project...again, to me. as long as that stays swiss, i'm ok with wherever the rest of the parts are sourced.
please do NOT get my thoughts of not wanting an asian movement in a mark 11 style watch confused with a "hatred" for asian movements. i have 3 seikos, one with the beloved 6R15 of which you speak. absolutely love all of them.

why should i need to share my thoughts on the other movements of which you speak, and why would it matter? i really don't have an opiniion of those as they are of no interest to me.

i'm sorry you were offended with my opinion, it's only worth exactly what you paid for it...

and for the record, i'm asian as well.

Hi!

First of all:

You don't offend me that easy ;)

I don't care so much about the origins of a movement. To me, things like build quality, ruggedness and finish are way more important.

That is: as long as they aren't being produced under inhumane circumstances etc.

My view on this matter is a rather simple one: Eddie builds high quality products for a VERY good price. I think we can all agree on that.

I don't need to say so because of some ruling on this forum or strict moderation, the situation over here is relaxed enough to be able to give an honest opinion.

I don't give a rat's *ss about the source of Eddie's movements: to me it is obvious, Eddie wants only high-quality parts (which is why he doesn't produce anything with the Chinese chrono movt's at the moment: still things to work out over there).

So a Seiko mov't in a Precista/Speedbird watch wouldn't be a problem whatsoever to me!

When I take into account that I own at least half a dozen Seiko's and all of them have worked for years and years without any problem EVER. I've had expensive Swiss watches with bad ETA-mov'ts... for instance my Omega de Ville, which was dead on arrival twice (!!).
Therefore, I cannot say that I would expect, nay, really need a swiss movement in a Precista/Speedbird.

However: things are up to Eddie; it's his call ;) I'm sure he'll decide on a good quality mov't for an eventual SP 3 :D

[swanbourne]

I would be happy to use any movement which was proven to be reliable and fit for purpose. Unfortunately, most Chinese movements have no track record or reliable spare parts network at this time. I know that this will improve and Chinese movements will present a real threat to the Swiss watch industry in a comparatively short time but until I can be sure that any alternative movements used in my watches are both reliable and serviceable, I'll stick with the proven movements.

I've put some feelers out for Seiko movements and would be more than happy to use those if available at the right price and with proven continuity of supply.

Eddie

[Crusader]

Judging from the pic on page 1 the SB3 will be very similar to the Mark XV (only visible difference is the date). To be honest I was hoping for something more in the direction of older Marks, especially with non-serife numerals as well as longer and smaller hour indices. So I would be curious if the design is already "written in stone"? Although I am quite interested in this project I am a bit reluctant to buy a MK XV hommage.

Hear, hear! :D

Well argued, and a touch of the "original" won't hurt the SB3 indeed. 8)

[Gert]

..

I've put some feelers out for Seiko movements and would be more than happy to use those if available at the right price and with proven continuity of supply.

Eddie

A good Seiko mov't would surely perform as well a basic Swiss job :D



Cheers,
Gert

[Dave Essel]

Hack + Handwind

from anywhere (even made by Zorgian slaves on Mars in conditions not really fit for non-humanoids)

so long as the quality's okay and Eddie will be a sure judge of that.


(PS The trouble with slavery and inhuman conditions is that product quality suffers; the good stuff comes from willing workers. This is probably why Russian and Chinese product isn't up to much. I don't know enough about conditions in China but workers' pay and conditions in Russia today are still terrible.)

[raysablade]

..

I've put some feelers out for Seiko movements and would be more than happy to use those if available at the right price and with proven continuity of supply.

Eddie

A good Seiko mov't would surely perform as well a basic Swiss job :D



Cheers,
Gert

Difting off topic but that looks like a development of the 7s26



Are they interchangeable? If they are it would be fantastic news.


The picture is from John Davies excellent review.

[Bernard]

The 6R15 is probably based on the 7s26.

Finish and some parts however, are upgraded.
A watchmaker told me they are both still a pain in the *ss to regulate.

[Gert]

The 6R15 is probably based on the 7s26.

Finish and some parts however, are upgraded.
A watchmaker told me they are both still a pain in the *ss to regulate.

The regulation of the 6R15 is performed just like on the 7S26: by moving the top lever. Delicate work. I have regulated several myself, and with practice it is get less painful :)

Cheers,
Gert

[derek_faker]

Hack + Handwind



(PS The trouble with slavery and inhuman conditions is that product quality suffers; the good stuff comes from willing workers. This is probably why Russian and Chinese product isn't up to much. I don't know enough about conditions in China but workers' pay and conditions in Russia today are still terrible.)

My last holiday, with my parents, was a fortnight in the USSR back in 1982. One thing that really stuck in my mind, was how miserable all of the Russians looked and how there were so few cars on the road, even in Moscow and Leningrad.
The architecture was magnificent and I shot 12 rolls of Kodachrome in 2 weeks in my Zenit EM (Russian camera).I bought a wideangle lens off a black market seller, for £5 when it was selling for ten times that amount in the shops at that time. 8)

[Chisholm]

The 6R15 is probably based on the 7s26.

Finish and some parts however, are upgraded.
A watchmaker told me they are both still a pain in the *ss to regulate.

The regulation of the 6R15 is performed just like on the 7S26: by moving the top lever. Delicate work. I have regulated several myself, and with practice it is get less painful :)

Cheers,
Gert

My new seiko Spirit has a 6R15 movement and has gained 1 second in three days!!!!!
Cheers,
Martin

[Guardala]

Must it be a brand new movement, or NOS will be ok ?
'Cause there's a guy selling about 120 old FHF manual wind movements (don't remember the calibre exactly), and another guy selling some NOS France Ebauches automatic movements, both in Switzerland.

Otherwise, there's still Technotime and other...

At least, try Vaucher :lol:

Guardala.

[Spike]

I'm sure its in here somewhere but will the 3 have drilled lugs :?:

[Bernard]

Must it be a brand new movement, or NOS will be ok ?
'Cause there's a guy selling about 120 old FHF manual wind movements (don't remember the calibre exactly), and another guy selling some NOS France Ebauches automatic movements, both in Switzerland.

Otherwise, there's still Technotime and other...

At least, try Vaucher :lol:

Guardala.

With old movt's you'll get a ltd. just because of the small stock of these movements!

In other words: sounds good :)