PANERAI WATCHES- A LOAD OF RUBBISH RIP OFF ???????

[learningtofly]

I thought I'd made it clear that I was expressing my own view (as in "Personally"). In any event, Panerai are fair game considering how they tend to shoot themselves in the foot with alarming regularity. As for my comments in respect of price, I think you'll find that most people - whether they love the brand or loathe it - consider them to be at the top of the cost scale. (Let's not mention value for money in the light of the movement debacle, eh?)

I take issue with your very rude implication that in expressing my view I've in some way behaved immaturely, incidentally, and would welcome an apology. I have as much right to an opinion as you or anyone else on this forum, and I require neither your permission to express it nor your affirmation of it once posted.

Did i accuse you personally of immaturity? No :wink:

I do believe that if I started laying into Rolex and or Omega as brands, you amongst many would likely be a staunch defender, which is entirely acceptable, but to condemn a brand out of hand and inaccurately is not really on, is it. Have you ever owned a Panerai, Unitas powered or otherwise? If you have and didn't like it then fair enough. I've owned numerous Rolex and simply cannot see what the fuss is all about. Clearly your view would differ.

For sweeping statements (by others) that all Panerai are a rip off and crap, do these claimants choose to ignore, or perhaps they simply aren't aware? for example that the very same Zenith movement Daytona's that are now so coveted, also powered a whole generation of Panerai's. So extending the claim that all Panerai are crap, so are the older Zenith Daytona's which i think is probably not a wise claim to make.

Fair enough, but people do lay into Rolex in some way almost every day on here. Most have never owned one, and in any event I have my own view as to the root cause of much of the sniping (and it has nothing to do with the watches).

I certainly don't take it personally, in the same way that I don't take it personally when people call vintage watches rattly old tat (yes, people like you, Burnsey). Sometimes, criticism is both justified and justifiable; I suspect that this is one of those occasions.

[Ducatiist]

Just read through the majority of this thread.........Its really annoying to think that a so called top-end watchmaker would do such a thing. I've been saving for an age to try and buy one of the so-called lower end Panerai's, which are still bloody dear! This has put me RIGHT off now........Think I might as well buy a cheap copy from Turkey, it'll probably have a similar movement and cost about £25......for a good quality one, of course :twisted:

Think I might revisit looking at something second hand, probably from Rolex and probably looking like a sea dweller. 8)

[2kilo]

shadowman wrote
...Somehow some brands are worthy and some are not which is frankly ridiculous. It has been said a million times, all 'luxury' items, watches or otherwise are overpriced and in the eyes of many are all a 'rip-off...'

I have heard this a million times, and it is a vast generalisation... Most luxury items begin with either superior materials/design/age/etc... Yes i agree a proportion of luxury goods are a rip off, (usally cheap logo driven objects for the plebs) selling on name alone but that is not how all begin/are currently/or will survive... Some luxury items, are value for money - eg if they last 50 years, and are repairable? There are degrees of being ripped off and IMHO panerai went too far, hiding the truth, a better movement for a small batch would not have ruined their business plan...

[shadowman]

I thought I'd made it clear that I was expressing my own view (as in "Personally"). In any event, Panerai are fair game considering how they tend to shoot themselves in the foot with alarming regularity. As for my comments in respect of price, I think you'll find that most people - whether they love the brand or loathe it - consider them to be at the top of the cost scale. (Let's not mention value for money in the light of the movement debacle, eh?)

I take issue with your very rude implication that in expressing my view I've in some way behaved immaturely, incidentally, and would welcome an apology. I have as much right to an opinion as you or anyone else on this forum, and I require neither your permission to express it nor your affirmation of it once posted.

Did i accuse you personally of immaturity? No :wink:

I do believe that if I started laying into Rolex and or Omega as brands, you amongst many would likely be a staunch defender, which is entirely acceptable, but to condemn a brand out of hand and inaccurately is not really on, is it. Have you ever owned a Panerai, Unitas powered or otherwise? If you have and didn't like it then fair enough. I've owned numerous Rolex and simply cannot see what the fuss is all about. Clearly your view would differ.

For sweeping statements (by others) that all Panerai are a rip off and crap, do these claimants choose to ignore, or perhaps they simply aren't aware? for example that the very same Zenith movement Daytona's that are now so coveted, also powered a whole generation of Panerai's. So extending the claim that all Panerai are crap, so are the older Zenith Daytona's which i think is probably not a wise claim to make.

Fair enough, but people do lay into Rolex in some way almost every day on here. Most have never owned one, and in any event I have my own view as to the root cause of much of the sniping (and it has nothing to do with the watches).

I certainly don't take it personally, in the same way that I don't take it personally when people call vintage watches rattly old tat (yes, people like you, Burnsey). Sometimes, criticism is both justified and justifiable; I suspect that this is one of those occasions.

So it would seem you've never owned a Panerai but ignoring the styling, you're comfortable being a judge on their merit! I think that is dodgy ground personally :|

I think also the Risti bro's are no reflection whatsover on the brand, to claim otherwise would be ludicrous, Panerai can't choose who buys their product any more than the vast majority of manufacturing bases, there are exceptions of course both inside and outside of the watch world.

[darrenw]

I like Panerai and I have two, one with a beautifully decorated movement, a Radiomir Rattrapante.

I suppose I might be a bit miffed if I took the back off my sub and found a bog std eta movement, but I'm not planning to do so any time soon and out of sight, out of mind. Besides, if they're not decorated, they all look the same to me anyway :blackeye:

But let's not kid ourselves, we're all mugs and we've all bought into paying over-inflated prices. To say that one's own view is wise, then ridicule someone else's is IMO just shallow.

If you want insanity, just look at the prices people pay for vintage rolex bits and pieces. But they are worth it.

The market will always set a level for what something is worth, which often differs widely to a spreadsheet with component costs.

The old adage 'To know the price of everything and the value of nothing' comes to mind.

If you don't think it's worth it, don't buy it. But that doesn't mean it's not worth it.

And if you really feel that strongly about it, I believe there's pitch just outside st pauls cathedral waiting for you :P

[learningtofly]

I thought I'd made it clear that I was expressing my own view (as in "Personally"). In any event, Panerai are fair game considering how they tend to shoot themselves in the foot with alarming regularity. As for my comments in respect of price, I think you'll find that most people - whether they love the brand or loathe it - consider them to be at the top of the cost scale. (Let's not mention value for money in the light of the movement debacle, eh?)

I take issue with your very rude implication that in expressing my view I've in some way behaved immaturely, incidentally, and would welcome an apology. I have as much right to an opinion as you or anyone else on this forum, and I require neither your permission to express it nor your affirmation of it once posted.

Did i accuse you personally of immaturity? No :wink:

I do believe that if I started laying into Rolex and or Omega as brands, you amongst many would likely be a staunch defender, which is entirely acceptable, but to condemn a brand out of hand and inaccurately is not really on, is it. Have you ever owned a Panerai, Unitas powered or otherwise? If you have and didn't like it then fair enough. I've owned numerous Rolex and simply cannot see what the fuss is all about. Clearly your view would differ.

For sweeping statements (by others) that all Panerai are a rip off and crap, do these claimants choose to ignore, or perhaps they simply aren't aware? for example that the very same Zenith movement Daytona's that are now so coveted, also powered a whole generation of Panerai's. So extending the claim that all Panerai are crap, so are the older Zenith Daytona's which i think is probably not a wise claim to make.

Fair enough, but people do lay into Rolex in some way almost every day on here. Most have never owned one, and in any event I have my own view as to the root cause of much of the sniping (and it has nothing to do with the watches).

I certainly don't take it personally, in the same way that I don't take it personally when people call vintage watches rattly old tat (yes, people like you, Burnsey). Sometimes, criticism is both justified and justifiable; I suspect that this is one of those occasions.

So it would seem you've never owned a Panerai but ignoring the styling, you're comfortable being a judge on their merit! I think that is dodgy ground personally :|

I think also the Risti bro's are no reflection whatsover on the brand, to claim otherwise would be ludicrous, Panerai can't choose who buys their product any more than the vast majority of manufacturing bases, there are exceptions of course both inside and outside of the watch world.

I haven't owned one partly because they tend to be too large for my wrist (I've tried many on out of curiosity, in fact) and partly because of the reasons I alluded to in my earlier post. For the record, I think Rolex are far too expensive as well, but I love them when I wear them and I can somehow connect with their heritage more than I can with that of Panerai. On balance, therefore, I'm happy to own them.

I have a reasonable knowledge of watches generally and have sampled the Panerai product specifically, so all in all I think my opinion is valid. You might not, which is fine by me. But if you're suggesting that none of us can have an opinion about any watch we haven't owned, i'd say that you're the one on dodgy ground. Personally :)

[shadowman]

shadowman wrote
...Somehow some brands are worthy and some are not which is frankly ridiculous. It has been said a million times, all 'luxury' items, watches or otherwise are overpriced and in the eyes of many are all a 'rip-off...'

I have heard this a million times, and it is a vast generalisation... Most luxury items begin with either superior materials/design/age/etc... Yes i agree a proportion of luxury goods are a rip off, (usally cheap logo driven objects for the plebs) selling on name along but that is not how all begin/are currently/or will survive... Some luxury items, are value for money - eg if they last 50 years, and are repairable? There are degrees of being ripped off and IMHO panerai went too far, hiding the truth, a better movement for a small batch would not have ruined their business plan...

Agreed, a shot in the foot moment, but lets not delude ourselves here. Panerai have FU'd with this but do you really think Romega and many others are not guilty of the same somewhere in their history? I doubt very much there are not many skeletons still locked away in various cupboards :)

[shadowman]

I thought I'd made it clear that I was expressing my own view (as in "Personally"). In any event, Panerai are fair game considering how they tend to shoot themselves in the foot with alarming regularity. As for my comments in respect of price, I think you'll find that most people - whether they love the brand or loathe it - consider them to be at the top of the cost scale. (Let's not mention value for money in the light of the movement debacle, eh?)

I take issue with your very rude implication that in expressing my view I've in some way behaved immaturely, incidentally, and would welcome an apology. I have as much right to an opinion as you or anyone else on this forum, and I require neither your permission to express it nor your affirmation of it once posted.

Did i accuse you personally of immaturity? No :wink:

I do believe that if I started laying into Rolex and or Omega as brands, you amongst many would likely be a staunch defender, which is entirely acceptable, but to condemn a brand out of hand and inaccurately is not really on, is it. Have you ever owned a Panerai, Unitas powered or otherwise? If you have and didn't like it then fair enough. I've owned numerous Rolex and simply cannot see what the fuss is all about. Clearly your view would differ.

For sweeping statements (by others) that all Panerai are a rip off and crap, do these claimants choose to ignore, or perhaps they simply aren't aware? for example that the very same Zenith movement Daytona's that are now so coveted, also powered a whole generation of Panerai's. So extending the claim that all Panerai are crap, so are the older Zenith Daytona's which i think is probably not a wise claim to make.

Fair enough, but people do lay into Rolex in some way almost every day on here. Most have never owned one, and in any event I have my own view as to the root cause of much of the sniping (and it has nothing to do with the watches).

I certainly don't take it personally, in the same way that I don't take it personally when people call vintage watches rattly old tat (yes, people like you, Burnsey). Sometimes, criticism is both justified and justifiable; I suspect that this is one of those occasions.

So it would seem you've never owned a Panerai but ignoring the styling, you're comfortable being a judge on their merit! I think that is dodgy ground personally :|

I think also the Risti bro's are no reflection whatsover on the brand, to claim otherwise would be ludicrous, Panerai can't choose who buys their product any more than the vast majority of manufacturing bases, there are exceptions of course both inside and outside of the watch world.

I haven't owned one partly because they tend to be too large for my wrist (I've tried many on out of curiosity, in fact) and partly because of the reasons I alluded to in my earlier post. For the record, I think Rolex are far too expensive as well, but I love them when I wear them and I can somehow connect with their heritage more than I can with that of Panerai. On balance, therefore, I'm happy to own them.

I have a reasonable knowledge of watches generally and have sampled the Panerai product specifically, so all in all I think my opinion is valid. You might not, which is fine by me. But if you're suggesting that none of us can have an opinion about any watch we haven't owned, i'd say that you're the one on dodgy ground. Personally :)

In my world an infomed opinion is one thing, a more valid opinion based on real world ownership and direct experience is entirely different. I loathe Breitling but only for their styling. I've never owned one simply because they don't appeal to me. I would never though condemn them and make generalisations beyond how they look to me :)

[matt]

Seems to me that one of the first rules of a luxury brand should be never to make your customers feel like utter idiots for buying your product. And it seems like that's what they've done...

+1

[markie3182]

I just knew when I saw the op yesterday this would happen.
To answer the question PANERAI WATCHES- A LOAD OF RUBBISH RIP OFF ??????? no not a load of rubbish, but maybe in this case a bit more of a rip off than usual.
For me the crux of the matter is that I want the Quality of the watch to increase exponentially with the price of the watch.
I don't want the same movement that is in my £4000 pound pride and joy to be in a watch costing thousands less.
Panerai have dropped a major one here all they had to do was to decorate the bridge upgrade it to cosc spec and all would have been well.
Come on guys we all know on here that all the high end brands are marking up many many times what it costs them in R&D and production costs per watch. you only have to look at the advertising budgets to realise they are selling us an image of perfection rather than perfection itself.
For me that is what makes this game so interesting the hunt for the perfect watch at the perfect price, I know that if I had bought said Panerai and this then came to light I would feel that they had not lived up to there end of the cost to quality Correlation, and would feel more than a little aggrieved . Just my 2 pence worth cheers.

[learningtofly]

I haven't owned one partly because they tend to be too large for my wrist (I've tried many on out of curiosity, in fact) and partly because of the reasons I alluded to in my earlier post. For the record, I think Rolex are far too expensive as well, but I love them when I wear them and I can somehow connect with their heritage more than I can with that of Panerai. On balance, therefore, I'm happy to own them.

I have a reasonable knowledge of watches generally and have sampled the Panerai product specifically, so all in all I think my opinion is valid. You might not, which is fine by me. But if you're suggesting that none of us can have an opinion about any watch we haven't owned, i'd say that you're the one on dodgy ground. Personally :)

In my world an infomed opinion is one thing, a more valid opinion based on real world ownership and direct experience is entirely different. I loathe Breitling but only for their styling. I've never owned one simply because they don't appeal to me. I would never though condemn them and make generalisations beyond how they look to me :)

I take that as a climb-down, albeit a subtle one ;)

[dtc2]

19 pages of for and against panerai feelings certainly run high on this topic.

people take this far more seriously than me.

but this is a puiblic forums and people will chip in with one liners and personel opinion that isn;t based totally on facts.

interesting to read that some panerai use the zenith movement also used in the daytona. I need to find out which model numbers they are and saee if i like the case design etc etc.

even amongst all the tit for tat there is a snippet of useful info.

my perosonel opinion on this wacth is that I would feel hard done to. I appreciate panerai make several watches i'd love to own as well but this cheap trick does make me want one of the goiod ones a little less.

[shadowman]

I haven't owned one partly because they tend to be too large for my wrist (I've tried many on out of curiosity, in fact) and partly because of the reasons I alluded to in my earlier post. For the record, I think Rolex are far too expensive as well, but I love them when I wear them and I can somehow connect with their heritage more than I can with that of Panerai. On balance, therefore, I'm happy to own them.

I have a reasonable knowledge of watches generally and have sampled the Panerai product specifically, so all in all I think my opinion is valid. You might not, which is fine by me. But if you're suggesting that none of us can have an opinion about any watch we haven't owned, i'd say that you're the one on dodgy ground. Personally :)

In my world an infomed opinion is one thing, a more valid opinion based on real world ownership and direct experience is entirely different. I loathe Breitling but only for their styling. I've never owned one simply because they don't appeal to me. I would never though condemn them and make generalisations beyond how they look to me :)

I take that as a climb-down, albeit a subtle one ;)

If that thought makes you happy, so be it. For the avoidance of doubt i was simply clarifying my general position.

[Ari]

What's amazed me about this thread is the number of people who think it's ok because what you're paying for is the image and the brand and the marketing etc.

I'm not. I bought a Rolex because I believe it to be a high quality object, not because they sponsor Wimbledon and have a nice brochure.

The "quality/prestige" tag should be earned by actually being a high quality product, not by having the best marketing department.

Just shows what a vacuous world we now live in when people are prepared to pay for the image and don't really care how it's made.

[farmkid]

What's amazed me about this thread is the number of people who think it's ok because what you're paying for is the image and the brand and the marketing etc.

I'm not. I bought a Rolex because I believe it to be a high quality object, not because they sponsor Wimbledon and have a nice brochure.

The "quality/prestige" tag should be earned by actually being a high quality product, not by having the best marketing department.

Just shows what a vacuous world we now live in when people are prepared to pay for the image and don't really care how it's made.

I agree totally.......but try telling that to the Paneristi.com community etc-
Richemont group only bought the brand because of the military history and have milked it 100%
I don't think buying a Pam now has any correlation to WW2, it's naff marketing imho....
Likewise, when I wear a Big Pilot I don't feel any link to the Dambusters

[Andyg]

WOW 19 pages of Hissy fits.

Panerai - load of rubbish - no - just look at the 3646, 6152 and some of the more recent offerings like the PAM21 - Solid Platinum and a Cal 618 Rolex movement - a snip at £60K+.

However they are perhaps a bit of rip off in respect to some of their base watches (and I have a PAM 002 so can speak from exprience). Great watch which I enjoy, however the biggest difference between this and a newer Panerai is that in 2001 my base/unitas powered 002 was £1600 - now days a PAM 00112 for example will cost £3500 :D My 002 was limited to 1600 I believe that the K series 112 was limited to "just" 2000!!

All Panerai are doing are exploiting their brand within the market place and just like Rolex, etc, will continue to push up pricing for as long as the market will take it.

So who is at fault - the greedy watch manufactures or the idiots who buy them - especially those idiots who buy them without doing their homework first.

Hence now days I stick to vintage which believe me takes the meaning of "Idiot" to a whole new level - for example an all blue bezel insert for a 1675/16750 can easily go for the more than a new panerai and a rare dial more than a new Patek.

We live in strange times

Andy

[iml]

I think this is just one example which shows branding is more important than horology to a lot of people. I stick to older models from companies with in-house movements for exactly this reason (apart from a Stowa, all my watches are at least 25 years old), the modern watch market is a daft place, where even the most tenuous connection between workmanship and price has been severed.

[jubbaa]

Look at the king, look at the king , look at the king, the king, the king...

So you can buy a fake or a homage with an equiv movement or better and pay a few hundred $ , or you can buy this for $5,000 .hhhmmm those that would do the latter please take a long hard look at yourself.

No matter how you dress this up ( pardon the pun) , this watch is a rip off in the extreme. We will never know Panerai's reasons for producing such a sub standard piece , whether it was to shift some old movements, boost their margins, whatever. What we do know however that this is a complete embarrassment for the company , you can guarantee that there are some very red faces over at Panerai either for putting out such a piece or being found out!

I have owned a few over the years, currently don't have one and was thinking seriously about buying one until this came out. NEVER AGAIN.

Shame on you Panerai

P.S. I love the comments over at Paneristi about it being a tool watch and how that somehow justifies it...peerlease.

[Phil Lee]

I believe that the K series 112 was limited to "just" 2000!!

My H series 112 is one of 1200.

On the original point, I think Panerai have made a mistake in fitting these watches with an unbranded movement. I can understand why there are differences between a movement in a watch with a display back and one without though. This happens in other watches too, for example the Omega Speedmaster Professional has a plastic blocking lever in models with a solid caseback and a metal one in display back models.

[siddhartha]

I believe that the K series 112 was limited to "just" 2000!!

My H series 112 is one of 1200.

One the original point, I think Panerai have made a mistake in fitting these watches with an unbranded movement. I can understand why there are differences between a movement in a watch with a display back and one without though. This happens in other watches too, for example the Omega Speedmaster Professional has a plastic blocking lever in models with a solid caseback and a metal one in display back models.

True on the Speedy, but the plastic lever is actually a self-lubricating piece, which is an improvement over the metal one in function. It's not cost-savings, nor "cheaping out" on the movement. They put the metal piece in the display back models as people would prefer to look at a fully metal, decorated movement.

Totally different than putting in a bog-standard, undecorated, unbranded movement in a 5k watch. There's really no excuse for Panerai on this one.

...and looking at the sales corner at TimeZone, there's one for sale right now...

[farmkid]

P.S. I love the comments over at Paneristi about it being a tool watch and how that somehow justifies it...peerlease.

I must admit I too thought that was a pathetic argument to justify 4k on a £70 movement...........

Some Paneristi folk also said the movement was irrelevant ie-because everyone would still want the limited edition 360 even if it had the cheapest eta movement possible.

[shadowman]

WOW 19 pages of Hissy fits.

Panerai - load of rubbish - no - just look at the 3646, 6152 and some of the more recent offerings like the PAM21 - Solid Platinum and a Cal 618 Rolex movement - a snip at £60K+.

However they are perhaps a bit of rip off in respect to some of their base watches (and I have a PAM 002 so can speak from exprience). Great watch which I enjoy, however the biggest difference between this and a newer Panerai is that in 2001 my base/unitas powered 002 was £1600 - now days a PAM 00112 for example will cost £3500 :D My 002 was limited to 1600 I believe that the K series 112 was limited to "just" 2000!!

All Panerai are doing are exploiting their brand within the market place and just like Rolex, etc, will continue to push up pricing for as long as the market will take it.

So who is at fault - the greedy watch manufactures or the idiots who buy them - especially those idiots who buy them without doing their homework first.

Hence now days I stick to vintage which believe me takes the meaning of "Idiot" to a whole new level - for example an all blue bezel insert for a 1675/16750 can easily go for the more than a new panerai and a rare dial more than a new Patek.

We live in strange times

Andy

You can't proffer the illogical to those thinking logically. As you very well know and better than many, vintage anything can command silly prices, be that for example a 'basic' Rolex or perhaps a basic undecorated Rolex powered Panerai. The same drum is banged all the time by the Panerai haters which is fine by me vive la difference but dare i or anyone deride a Comex sub and i am hit with scorn bordering on hatred. It's all daft but some do love to rant in keyboard warrior mode :roll:

Personally i’m bored with this now and will move on and this thread will die eventually as i believe it should now, with or without any more input from me :)

I may start a new thread though on the subject and merits of Bremont, just for fun :|

[Ducatiist]

P.S. I love the comments over at Paneristi about it being a tool watch and how that somehow justifies it...peerlease.

I must admit I too thought that was a pathetic argument to justify 4k on a £70 movement...........

Some Paneristi folk also said the movement was irrelevant ie-because everyone would still want the limited edition 360 even if it had the cheapest eta movement possible.

Oh it's a tool watch, all right. :twisted:

What he said :lol: :lol: :lol:

[jimmerjammer]

P.S. I love the comments over at Paneristi about it being a tool watch and how that somehow justifies it...peerlease.

I must admit I too thought that was a pathetic argument to justify 4k on a £70 movement...........

Some Paneristi folk also said the movement was irrelevant ie-because everyone would still want the limited edition 360 even if it had the cheapest eta movement possible.

Oh it's a tool watch, all right. :twisted:

What he said :lol: :lol: :lol:

What they said
:lol:

[doctorj]

You can't proffer the illogical to those thinking logically. As you very well know and better than many, vintage anything can command silly prices, be that for example a 'basic' Rolex or perhaps a basic undecorated Rolex powered Panerai. The same drum is banged all the time by the Panerai haters which is fine by me vive la difference but dare i or anyone deride a Comex sub and i am hit with scorn bordering on hatred. It's all daft but some do love to rant in keyboard warrior mode :roll:

Personally i’m bored with this now and will move on and this thread will die eventually as i believe it should now, with or without any more input from me :)

I may start a new thread though on the subject and merits of Bremont, just for fun :|

The difference with expensive vintage is that rarity and price have been determined over a longer period of time.

The rarity and desireability of a Panerai seems to be currently determined by the factory, and longer term that is questionable. Especially right now.

I know that in other areas of collecting this sort of forced collector's item ends up being nearly worthless.

(If they offered to replace all the movements in these watches, and people take up that offer, the ones with unreplaced movements might become more valuable!)

[2kilo]

So it would seem if you and few others living in NYC fancied a special edition you'd be better off buying a standard model and having someone etch an image on the back..? Or better still engrave a glass backed version...?

[Threeracers]

This thread, and the one it links to, has been quite an eye opener for me.

Too greedy Panerai!

[pippin]

Wow - 19 pages and counting. As the happy owner of not one, but two PAMS, I thought I'd weigh in. First, it should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with the brand that in most cases you are not buying a Panerai for their extraordinary movements. It is common knowledge that most of their lower end models use pretty pedestrian ETA movements and that if you are buying a watch primarly for its movement there are a lot better values out there.

However, when I purchased my two PAMS I knew exactly what I was getting in the way of a movement (one has a display caseback). In this case it sounds like Panerai advertised the movement of this limited edition as being "special", but neglected to mention that what made it "special" was that it was actually crappier than what it put in some of its less expensive models. Given that OP is already criticized for putting relatively cheap movements in watches that are popular because of their iconic design and then charging a substantial premium for them, this tactic really seems to be taking things too far.

[SIB]

Do we buy watches for the parts we can't see or how they look and feel on the outside? My Vacheron Constantin has (I beilive) a 24K gold rotor and engraved movement however as it has a solid case back it may well be run on match sticks and rubber bands for all i know! :D. It tells the time well and looks really good so what the movement looks like is not a major concner. I just want it to be robust and relaible. My IWC 500107 on the other hand has a massive display back so i'd prefer the movement to look good seeing as they've went to the trouble of trying to show it off.

I know people are different and some people get hung up on the movement of the watches, each to their own. I just don't think Panerai have done anything wrong not decorating it, what difference what it make to how the watch functions if it's engraved or not? I know other companies take a base movement and add bit's to it (sorry, I'm not to technical on the mechanics of it as you can tell) to improve it which i see as being different to not engraving it and if that's what was in question i could be more sympathetic to the discussion

Does the older Rolex Daytona not have the same Zenith "El Primero" movement in it the Zeniths do but WITHOUT a date function? There was a really nice El Primero on here for about £1200 recently yet a Daytona with the same movement but bits taken off of it is around £6.5k+?? Based on opinions about the movement being so important here logic would dictate the El Primero should have sold in seconds??

[Andyg]

WOW 19 pages of Hissy fits.

Panerai - load of rubbish - no - just look at the 3646, 6152 and some of the more recent offerings like the PAM21 - Solid Platinum and a Cal 618 Rolex movement - a snip at £60K+.

However they are perhaps a bit of rip off in respect to some of their base watches (and I have a PAM 002 so can speak from exprience). Great watch which I enjoy, however the biggest difference between this and a newer Panerai is that in 2001 my base/unitas powered 002 was £1600 - now days a PAM 00112 for example will cost £3500 :D My 002 was limited to 1600 I believe that the K series 112 was limited to "just" 2000!!

All Panerai are doing are exploiting their brand within the market place and just like Rolex, etc, will continue to push up pricing for as long as the market will take it.

So who is at fault - the greedy watch manufactures or the idiots who buy them - especially those idiots who buy them without doing their homework first.

Hence now days I stick to vintage which believe me takes the meaning of "Idiot" to a whole new level - for example an all blue bezel insert for a 1675/16750 can easily go for the more than a new panerai and a rare dial more than a new Patek.

We live in strange times

Andy

You can't proffer the illogical to those thinking logically. As you very well know and better than many, vintage anything can command silly prices, be that for example a 'basic' Rolex or perhaps a basic undecorated Rolex powered Panerai. The same drum is banged all the time by the Panerai haters which is fine by me vive la difference but dare i or anyone deride a Comex sub and i am hit with scorn bordering on hatred. It's all daft but some do love to rant in keyboard warrior mode :roll:

Personally i’m bored with this now and will move on and this thread will die eventually as i believe it should now, with or without any more input from me :)

I may start a new thread though on the subject and merits of Bremont, just for fun :|

I am in total agreement with you, however a Comex Sub is not a good example simply because

a) its a very rare thing - I believe only something like 1200 Comex Subs/SD have ever been presented
b) These watches were specifically commissioned by Comex from Rolex, it was not something that Rolex decided to make themselves
c) Each watch has its own history, so you can find out exactly when it was presented, to whom, their service history with Comex and if you are really lucky, and you buy from the person it was given to, his dive logs, etc, etc.

In in all a time capsule of history (not just a watch) - that being said there are some Panerai which have similar history and stories associated, as do NASA Speedies or other Military watches. All of these watches were "created" not just manufactured - if you get my point.

Therefore a better example therefore would be a Paul Newman Daytona :D unless of course its Eric Claptons or Paul Newmans :wink:

Andy

[JasonM]

P.S. I love the comments over at Paneristi about it being a tool watch and how that somehow justifies it...peerlease.

I must admit I too thought that was a pathetic argument to justify 4k on a £70 movement...........

Some Paneristi folk also said the movement was irrelevant ie-because everyone would still want the limited edition 360 even if it had the cheapest eta movement possible.

So if it was the £140 movement in a 4k watch that would make it all right yeah? :roll:

Presuming the Panerai movement code for this watch was a new one , wouldnt you think someone would have thought to ask the spec before spending 4k on it? If the movement is all important to judge the value for money part of owning a watch ( as appears to be the case judging by the comments on here ) and also considering the 'bros on the Panerai forums should be the experts I find it odd that this was overlooked by buyers...... If I had immersed myself in a brand like that lot I would have thought this would be a fundamental discussion point PRIOR to purchase.....

[walkerwek1958]

Come on guys this applies to every watch, car, bike, gadget out there, bloody iPhone 4s has a production cost of £20 I think!

True...but part of the mystique surrounding expensive mechanical watches is the craftsmanship in the movement? Mobile phones are a different issue, they're not made to last and be cherished for years.

I don`t mind the modified ETAs that get used....but this Panerai looks cheap.

Paul

[spluurfg]

I know people are different and some people get hung up on the movement of the watches, each to their own. I just don't think Panerai have done anything wrong not decorating it, what difference what it make to how the watch functions if it's engraved or not? I know other companies take a base movement and add bit's to it (sorry, I'm not to technical on the mechanics of it as you can tell) to improve it which i see as being different to not engraving it and if that's what was in question i could be more sympathetic to the discussion

I think that the key point that the undecorated version of the 6497 is functionally inferior to the higher grade version (which is decorated by default). The balance wheel and hairspring do not have as low a coefficient of thermal expansion. The shock protection is inferior. And perhaps most crucially it is also not adjusted in as many positions (2 vs 5 in the top spec), something which is key to the performance of the watch (less adjustment = higher positional variance = worse timekeeping).

Also, things like bridge plating and heat blued screws can help with corrosion resistance over the very long term. Your Vacheron's angled bridges and 21k rotor are functional, not just to make it look pretty.

As far as what's on the inside mattering, it matters to some. It matters to me at least.

[DaveS]

I recently acquired a Ventura chronograph with Valjoux (ETA) 7750 COSC movement, made for BMW in 1999. The movement is cosmetically unembelished and has no engraving on the rotor or any other part of the movement - apart from the usual Valjoux (ETA) marks.
The timekeeping is excellent as you would expect from a COSC movement but I believe that the movements is not a "standard" 7750. I understand that Valjoux upgraded the 7750 movement to achieve the COSC specification. This is far more important to me than the visual appearance.

Within this thread, at least one person has questioned whether Panerai have made any "improvements" to the movement or is it a bog standard ETA movement? Without trawling (again) through the now twenty-odd pages of the thread, does anybody know for sure?

I don't have any Panerai so it is of only of academic interest to me.

Kind regards
Dave

[Robinson]

On the plus the side the servicing would be cheap just pop in a new movement from Eta every couple of years, heck you could even do it yourself :)

[SIB]

I know people are different and some people get hung up on the movement of the watches, each to their own. I just don't think Panerai have done anything wrong not decorating it, what difference what it make to how the watch functions if it's engraved or not? I know other companies take a base movement and add bit's to it (sorry, I'm not to technical on the mechanics of it as you can tell) to improve it which i see as being different to not engraving it and if that's what was in question i could be more sympathetic to the discussion

I think that the key point that the undecorated version of the 6497 is functionally inferior to the higher grade version (which is decorated by default). The balance wheel and hairspring do not have as low a coefficient of thermal expansion. The shock protection is inferior. And perhaps most crucially it is also not adjusted in as many positions (2 vs 5 in the top spec), something which is key to the performance of the watch (less adjustment = higher positional variance = worse timekeeping).

Also, things like bridge plating and heat blued screws can help with corrosion resistance over the very long term. Your Vacheron's angled bridges and 21k rotor are functional, not just to make it look pretty.

As far as what's on the inside mattering, it matters to some. It matters to me at least.

Thanks for the technical explination mate, I hadn't realised this movement was inferior to the decorated ones i thought it was just not as pretty to look at! . In that case i would expect them at least to use the better of their movements in a limited (and i assume expensive) edition

[sepsonto]

I've followed this thread with interest and without adding to the obvious polarisation of opinion any further than to express my thanks to the OP.

I'm amazed at the crassness of Panerai's action - a 292 has been on my hit-list for some time, but I can finally dispel any notion of owning the brand after this debacle. I knew I'd be paying over the odds for a simple movement, but... just... seriously... :shock:

[jegger]

On the plus the side the servicing would be cheap just pop in a new movement from Eta every couple of years, heck you could even do it yourself :)

good point,Panerai charge around £400 to service their watches,£400 to service that movement would be taking the piss,bet they don't even go to the trouble in serving those and just replace them with a new one.

[neuman356]

Within this thread, at least one person has questioned whether Panerai have made any "improvements" to the movement or is it a bog standard ETA movement? Without trawling (again) through the now twenty-odd pages of the thread, does anybody know for sure?

I don't have any Panerai so it is of only of academic interest to me.

Kind regards
Dave

As I wrote three pages or so ago, the straight spokes on the balance wheel make it very unlikely that it's a glucydur one, which is the one used in top and chronometer grade movements. The etachoc shock protection may also be a giveaway, as incabloc is -at least to my knowledge- an optional extra for standard and elaboré grade movements.
So yes, IMHO it looks like a "unpimped" standard grade.

[Tinker]

As I wrote three pages or so ago, the straight spokes on the balance wheel make it very unlikely that it's a glucydur one, which is the one used in top and chronometer grade movements. The etachoc shock protection may also be a giveaway, as incabloc is -at least to my knowledge- an optional extra for standard and elaboré grade movements.
So yes, IMHO it looks like a "unpimped" standard grade.

Although I dislike Panerai for their cynical advertising campaigns, I'm sad for the Paneristi. The company can obviously produce (or commission) excellent case & dial work and, in their glassback cases, quite well presented movements. (All at risible prices, however.)

Now, for whatever reason ... did the boutique itself commission these watches ... or was it a central company decision ... they've been caught with their knickers well & truly down and their arses glinting foolishly in the sunshine of commonsense.

Yes, these watches are ridiculous and they deserve the ridicule they're receiving.

[demer03]

In spite of all this, I'd still like a 000.

[jimmerjammer]

The falling to bits bit would make them a " i dont want one " for me personally, but no one else seems to care so good luck to them . :)

[jubbaa]

On the plus the side the servicing would be cheap just pop in a new movement from Eta every couple of years, heck you could even do it yourself :)

good point,Panerai charge around £400 to service their watches,£400 to service that movement would be taking the piss,bet they don't even go to the trouble in serving those and just replace them with a new one.

Absolutely!, which adds to the argument still further. Hey everbody buy our $5000 watch with a $100 movement and when ever you need a service it will only cost you $600, oh and BTW we have a bit of a bad reputation when it comes to servicing and may feck that up too....money well spent - NOT

In the past I have had a hard enough time justifying the cost of my swiss watches to peolpe who don't know anything about them but are curious. I know I over paid for every one of them in terms of their intrinsic value but at least I have managed to wax lyrical about the history and provenance of my AP's or the in house movements of my Jeagers, or the superior hand finishing to my Pateks, just wouldn't know what to say if I owned this Panerai ???

[chrisparker]

In the past I have had a hard enough time justifying the cost of my swiss watches to peolpe who don't know anything about them but are curious. I know I over paid for every one of them in terms of their intrinsic value but at least I have managed to wax lyrical about the history and provenance of my AP's or the in house movements of my Jeagers, or the superior hand finishing to my Pateks, just wouldn't know what to say if I owned this Panerai ???

You say something like this:

"That's a nice watch what is it?"

It's a Swiss watch made by a company called Richemont.

"But it says Panerai on the dial –*what's that?"

Oh, Richemont bought the Intellectual Property including the name and design patents from an old Italian instrument company called Panerai, they used to make stuff for the Italian Navy. Now only Richemont have the legal right to produce watches carrying that name and using this patented crown guard design.

"Was it expensive?"

A little under £5,000.

"How much!, But why?"

Well it costs a bit to make for example: £60 for the movement, about £60 for the case, dial and hands and £40 for the strap.

"Yes but that only adds up to £160."

Ah but then someone's got to put the movement in the case and attach the dial and hands then put the strap on it, all that assembly could take a while. Plus you get a nice presentation box too.

"OK, that could cost another £100 then?"

Yep.

"But you said £5000. That leaves a shortfall of £4740."

Well there's a premium for using the Panerai name, that's got to be worth £1740.
The boutique that sold me it has to make a margin so they added £2000.
And then the government wanted £1000.

"And you're OK with that?"

Yeh, Jason Statham wears one in the movie Transporter –*how cool is that.

[cmcm3]

In the past I have had a hard enough time justifying the cost of my swiss watches to peolpe who don't know anything about them but are curious. I know I over paid for every one of them in terms of their intrinsic value but at least I have managed to wax lyrical about the history and provenance of my AP's or the in house movements of my Jeagers, or the superior hand finishing to my Pateks, just wouldn't know what to say if I owned this Panerai ???

You say something like this:

"That's a nice watch what is it?"

It's a Swiss watch made by a company called Richemont.

"But it says Panerai on the dial –*what's that?"

Oh, Richemont bought the Intellectual Property including the name and design patents from an old Italian instrument company called Panerai, they used to make stuff for the Italian Navy. Now only Richemont have the legal right to produce watches carrying that name and using this patented crown guard design.

"Was it expensive?"

A little under £5,000.

"How much!, But why?"

Well it costs a bit to make for example: £60 for the movement, about £60 for the case, dial and hands and £40 for the strap.

"Yes but that only adds up to £160."

Ah but then someone's got to put the movement in the case and attach the dial and hands then put the strap on it, all that assembly could take a while. Plus you get a nice presentation box too.

"OK, that could cost another £100 then?"

Yep.

"But you said £5000. That leaves a shortfall of £4740."

Well there's a premium for using the Panerai name, that's got to be worth £1740.
The boutique that sold me it has to make a margin so they added £2000.
And then the government wanted £1000.

"And you're OK with that?"

Yeh, Jason Statham wears one in the movie Transporter –*how cool is that.

:lol: It's true to a varying degree of virtually all watches over say £1,000, but that is funny. Makes me feel a bit of a mug though! :lol:

[barneygumble]

If anybody is interested, there's a Panerai Radiomir homage on Ebay for only $200 with a genuine OP XXIX movement here...

[horrovac]

My understanding is that Panerai change the balance & mainspring, as well as altering the beat rate to 21,600 b/hr (from the 17,000 b/hr of a non-modified 6497) when they upgrade 6497 movements. That's certainly true of the OP I & OP X in the 2 base Panerai I have.

It's 18000 bph for the standard 6497. However you're mistaken, Panerai do not do this themselves, the variety with 21600 bph is a bog standard ETA as well, it's the updated version 6497-2. Changing the beat rate afterwards would be very non-trivial, as you would also need to replace at least parts of the gearing.

I'm not sure I understood this right, but it appears to me that lots of people believe that the engraving on the Panerai (or other brands) is done afterwards, i.e. the ETA supply stock movements and then the Brand X "improves" it by modifying the finish. This is wrong. It would require entirely stripping the movement, engraving the plates, re-plating them because otherwise the brass underneath would show, then assembling the movement again - that's too much work for manufacturers which in most cases are nothing but glorified movement casing operations. Most of the bespoke decorations one sees on watch movements are not done in-house, they are in fact done by ETA as an additional service. It costs a bit more, but not that much as people seem to believe, it's peanuts really. So even using a movement with Panerai branding engraved on it doesn't really make much of a difference, it's a rip-off either way, the difference being that using a bog-standard off-the-shelf movement is taking the piss, especially if you brazenly try to pull the wool over your fanboys' eyes by giving it a name implying it is something bespoke and special.

Panerai was never an option for me really, as it was clear from the start that it is just a bog-standard (and ugly) watch with a lot of hype to it. This is no surprise to me - except that Panerai could be so stupid to effectively let their most devout customers in onto the game. They might have just killed the goose that laid them gold-plated eggs (which they sold as solid gold).

edit: fixed the wrong model number for the 21600 bph unitas, it's 6497-2, not 6497-1 as I previously wrote.

[xdonolix]

If anybody is interested, there's a Panerai Radiomir homage on Ebay for only $200 with a genuine OP XXIX movement here...

to be fair that ones better finished, at least they have brushed the movement

[horrovac]

People have been mentioning that other companies such as Breitling also use cheap movements such as the ETA 2824. It's true that standard versions of the 2824 are not that expensive, but Breitlin clearly uses chronometer grade movements, which are meaningfully more expensive -- think of Stowa, which charges €200-€300 for the upgrade. These have fundamentally different components -- different balance, different hairspring, different shock protection -- even though the design is identical. Decoration (if you care) is also very different, with chamfered screw and bearing slots, blued screws with chamfered heads, rhodium plating and perlage/cote de geneve, etc etc.

Still.... IIRC Eddie once mentioned that someone from Zeno told him the surcharge for a COSC movement was only about 80€. I hope I haven't misquoted him here, to my best knowledge this is what he said (and it seems conclusive), I can't remember which thread it was in so I can't search. Take it with a grain of salt and be aware that I might have got it wrong (but I think I haven't).

[Wild Rumpus]

It's interesting to contrast Panerai with Nomos, who produce a watch with an in-house, decorated, accurate hand-wind movement with reasonable servicing costs for under £1000...