Reply With QuoteI would never use western union so a permanent warning could be a good thing.
Reading the scammer alert post earlier got me wondering if anyone has ever bought a watch from SC and paid for it via Western Union or Moeygram? As these are the two vehicles of choice for scammers to receive your money I would rather lose a deal than pay using the aforementioned. If nobody has ever paid for a watch off SC using these methods do you think it would it help to deter scammers by stating at the top of the SC pages Wester Union or Moneygram is not to be offered as a means of accepting payment?
Not foolproof by a long chalk but it may help a newcomer to question why a seller want's paying via WU or MG?
Or perhaps there are many transactions on SC that do use these methods so a warning wouldn't be appropriate?
I would never use western union so a permanent warning could be a good thing.
What's wrong with Western Union - how do these scams work.
I know that it is always warned against but it's quite commonly used in other (non-Western?) countries for money transfer. If things are so dodgy why doesn't Western Union tighten things up?
A permanent warning is a bit OTT...western union is a legitimate business that have millions of problem free transaction.Originally Posted by billtr96sn
The golden rule when buying from a sales forum is "buy the seller"...if you do this is doesn't matter what payment method you use.
Ask Google...
Sending Your Money Into the Void
Sending funds through the banking system
When you send funds from your bank account to your cousin's bank account in Histown, a paper trail is established. If your cousin calls you on Tuesday to find out where the money is that you sent last Thursday, your bank can track the path of the money through the banking system to see what went wrong. A record of transfer is generated each and every time the amount moves from one bank's ledger to the next.
Sending funds through Western Union
That's not the case at all when you use Western Union. The only record kept by Western Union is of your funds being transferred from one of their accounts to another. For instance, if you are in Los Angeles and you send funds to somebody in London, all that Western Union can tell you is that the funds were picked up in London, and at which office.
Western Union takes your money and gives you a receipt. Your funds are then placed in the Los Angeles central Western Union account along with all the other monies they have received during the day from all over Los Angeles. Each transfer request is logged electronically such that your specific amount is then sent off to the central Western Union account in London.
Once the funds are in a central account, the actual money can be picked up at any office covered by that account. Just because you were told to send money to such-and-such a fellow at such-and-such a Western Union office does not mean he'll actually pick it up there. He can pick it up at an office clear across the city.
Western Union can verify that the fellow who picked up the money carried the specified identification. They might even be able to tell you what he looked like. This doesn't really do you much good. His identification can be phoney as the day is long. All you know when you sent the funds is what you were told. Once your scammer walks out of that office, there is absolutely nothing to bring him back, unlike your cousin in Histown who has an open bank account. There is no way to trace him. He's gone. And in the case of a scam, so is your money.http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/watchdog/
Every year thousands of people search the classified adverts looking for a place to rent, but Watchdog has received lots of complaints from viewers who've been scammed out of hundreds, even thousands of pounds while looking for a new home.
Lazaros Kesoglou came to the UK from Greece three weeks ago. He thought he'd secured a rented room in a shared flat in London's Holborn from a woman called Emily Brown. As soon as he arrived in the UK he went to the flat. It was only then that Lazaros learned Emily didn't live there and the flat was actually owned by someone else. It wasn't for rent at all and the Emily Brown he thought he was dealing with probably doesn't even exist.
It gets worse. Before he arrived in the UK, Emily had asked Lazoros to prove he had the funds to pay for the flat. To do this, she asked him to use Western Union to transfer the first month's rent and the deposit to someone he knew - even to himself if he wanted. All Emily wanted to see was the receipt for the transfer which would show Lazoros did actually have enough money. So Lazoros transferred £660 to himself and sent Emily the receipt as she requested. When Lazaros discovered that his flat wasn't for rent, and that Emily Brown didn't exist, he went back to Western Union to retrieve his £660. But it had gone. Someone had already withdrawn the money.
Western Union is the biggest money transfer company in the UK and therefore most of our case studies have used Western Union to transfer money.
Nineteen-year-old Alexandra Sheppard saw a flat on the internet site Gumtree. She too was asked for proof of funds and sent £1,350 to her sister via Western Union. When they went to retrieve the money four days later it had gone.
Andrea Crookes and her daughter Nicola Mason were taken in too, after Nicola got a new job in London. When Nicola arrived at the flat she thought she'd rented in Islington, there was no one to meet her. She asked at the shop downstairs but they were sure that somebody else lived there.
As usual, Nicola had been asked for proof she'd be able to pay the rent. So her mum had transferred £1,100 to her via Western Union. When she went to get it back, that money had already been collected.
So how is the scam working?
It's thought scammers use the details on the receipt sent to them to create a fake ID in order to pick up the money. The scammers' email addresses were traced back to Nigeria so they may even be receiving the money from one of the 320,000 Western Union branches around the world and not even from the UK.
Tom Craig is a counter fraud expert. He's not surprised that the scammers have taken advantage of Western Union as the scammers can't be traced: "Basically it's moving cash. You can't really identify the end receiver. Although you should but you can't. It's just like giving cash away."
I think the main problem with WU is the lack of "paper trail" when you/if you are in dispute or been scammed.
It has a loooong history but mainly as a telegram service.
its how the Doc told Marty he was stuck in 1885 in BTTF2 :D
It is staggering that WU STILL haven't tightened up on this simple scam. WTF don't they just ask the sended which branch the money will be collected from and then only allow it to be collected from there by the nominee who has two forms of ID and 2 utility bills. Wouldn't that make things a whole lot more difficult for the scammers.
Surely the office in Nigeria ought to know that money sent from Los Angeles to London is very unlikely to get collected from the Abuja office in Nigeria!! FFS :evil:
+1
Yes you'd think that if this were done it would become a respectable means of payment and perhaps rival the ubiquitous PayPal.
paypal gift is an accepted payment method on here... no security whatsoever
Good luck everybody. Have a good one.
Difficult question.
Firstly the "buy the seller" advice is good. You should always do this.
As to payment method, well there is plenty of info about what's secure and what's not.
My advice is if you are the buyer then control the deal. Say how you will pay, will it be F2F when title will transfer, who will insure the package etc. If they seller won't co-operate then this will tell you a lot and I'd refer you back to "buy the seller"
nor is there with a bank transfer. Your bank will only intervene if they made an error and sent payment to the wrong account. If payment was made to the account you specified they won't be much help.
most people on here have a fair idea of who they would trust and who they wouldnt. even those new to the forum can check references in h and v. not foolproof by any means - but it is an indication. punters should do their homework on any listing in sc. apart from that the main risk i think would be in the case of prospective pm's or responses to wtb's.
Good luck everybody. Have a good one.
if you made a BT transfer with a solid ref attached (such as the name of the watch and tzuk ) then at least if it all went tits up you would have some basis to pursue through the legal channels. paypal gift has none of this security. its also a hell of alot easier for a scammer to set up and ditch a paypal account than a bank account.nor is there with a bank transfer. Your bank will only intervene if they made an error and sent payment to the wrong account. If payment was made to the account you specified they won't be much help.
Good luck everybody. Have a good one.
Nigerian scammers are using paypal to pay for high value goods, watches, cars etc , and many free ads sites warn you about this.
Dont how they do it..ie put money into your paypal account, suppose its an "E" cheque that takes time to clear and they send
someone for the goods before its cleared, or they use a false or stolen credit card to pay.
While this is true you have to do a lot to prove to a UK bank you are who you say you are before you open an account. (i.e you become traceable) It's therefore much more difficult to set up a fake bank account. Also banks monitor accounts for odd transaction patterns. If you did manage to set-up a single fake account at a bank then if all they saw was large deposits and cash withdrawal of the same amounts within a few hours it would not last long.nor is there with a bank transfer. Your bank will only intervene if they made an error and sent payment to the wrong account. If payment was made to the account you specified they won't be much help.
Agreed, but my point was that the bank wouldn't offer you any protection. If you pay for a watch by BT and the seller doesn't send it, the bank would not help you because you instructed them to send the payment.While this is true you have to do a lot to prove to a UK bank you are who you say you are before you open an account. (i.e you become traceable) It's therefore much more difficult to set up a fake bank account. Also banks monitor accounts for odd transaction patterns. If you did manage to set-up a single fake account at a bank then if all they saw was large deposits and cash withdrawal of the same amounts within a few hours it would not last long.nor is there with a bank transfer. Your bank will only intervene if they made an error and sent payment to the wrong account. If payment was made to the account you specified they won't be much help.
Bottom line nothing is safe as we know there have been "members" who have established great H&V credentials and then turned people over.Possibly a FTF with cash?
I FEEL LIKE I'M DIAGONALLY PARKED IN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE
Well, you can't expect the same level of security as buying from a proper b&m shop. It's always down to a reasonable estimation of the risk you'll take.
Speaking from personal experience, I felt a bit of paranoia even when selling, already having the money on my account, let alone buying. This may be the reason I have not been burned (yet).
i work with websites and apps of which most are secure and transactional. we see an increasing number of scammers simply copying and pasting our codebase for phishing purposes :evil:
very scary stuff as this is for institutional clients depositing hundreds of millions :shock: :shock:
I can vouch for this. A member on here who bought something from me a little while back managed to have two identical payments hit my account. I phoned my bank to reverse the second transaction, and they effectively told me that it was my money and they wouldn't reverse it! I sent a BT back to the member for the second payment amount, but if I'd have been a chancer, there was nothing (as far as I can tell) that the buyer could have done.
Buy the seller...
That said, at least you know who's ripped you off with a bank transfer that goes wrong - unlike the likes of WU.
I'm no techie so may have misunderstood your post completely, but how do they copy & paste something that's secure?
Nothing is secure. If it is connected to the net, you can get into it.
login prompts, landing pages etc. obviously nothing behind the loginI'm no techie so may have misunderstood your post completely, but how do they copy & paste something that's secure?
I have never used it but have heard that WU is fine but have read that you should only use it if sending money to someone you know.
I would agree with this - it's a prompt way of sending money internationally (friends & family).
However, I would never, ever, ever, ever (get the idea?) use it for a transaction/purchase/sale etc.
Western Union or Moneygram are good to transfer funds if you never want to see the funds again. If you use that method the recipient can be anyone. You have no way to know who it is.
Yes that happened to me, and yes my monies were returned as the guy was a top fella at TZ. But on ebay it could have been a tricky to say the least. The adage buy the seller always seems to ring true as has been said previously.I can vouch for this. A member on here who bought something from me a little while back managed to have two identical payments hit my account. I phoned my bank to reverse the second transaction, and they effectively told me that it was my money and they wouldn't reverse it! I sent a BT back to the member for the second payment amount, but if I'd have been a chancer, there was nothing (as far as I can tell) that the buyer could have done.
Buy the seller...
That said, at least you know who's ripped you off with a bank transfer that goes wrong - unlike the likes of WU.
If you were conned out of money then you could get help from the police,so paypal and BT offer more protection.nor is there with a bank transfer. Your bank will only intervene if they made an error and sent payment to the wrong account. If payment was made to the account you specified they won't be much help.
Surely if WU accept fake ID then they should still have to pay the correct person,same as banks,if they did I bet they would tighten things up sharpish.
Got to be honest, it's a pain just now, i've had a fair few 0 post members PM'ing about the AP, and it's certainly making my trust wobble a bit overall.
I don't think the method of payment will have any bearing on whether the Police get involved TBHIf you were conned out of money then you could get help from the police,so paypal and BT offer more protection.nor is there with a bank transfer. Your bank will only intervene if they made an error and sent payment to the wrong account. If payment was made to the account you specified they won't be much help.
Yes but the police will have more chance to get a result if they at least have the correct ID and the adress of the crim.I don't think the method of payment will have any bearing on whether the Police get involved TBHIf you were conned out of money then you could get help from the police,so paypal and BT offer more protection.nor is there with a bank transfer. Your bank will only intervene if they made an error and sent payment to the wrong account. If payment was made to the account you specified they won't be much help.
I don't think the method of payment will have any bearing on whether the Police get involved TBHIf you were conned out of money then you could get help from the police,so paypal and BT offer more protection.nor is there with a bank transfer. Your bank will only intervene if they made an error and sent payment to the wrong account. If payment was made to the account you specified they won't be much help.
the police would have a better chance to track down the person,ntm, I bet as soon as the police here the words WU their willingness to help would be somewhat less.
You see, this is what i don't understand. Is it really that easy to get money by WU in a false name?Yes but the police will have more chance to get a result if they at least have the correct ID and the adress of the crim.I don't think the method of payment will have any bearing on whether the Police get involved TBHIf you were conned out of money then you could get help from the police,so paypal and BT offer more protection.nor is there with a bank transfer. Your bank will only intervene if they made an error and sent payment to the wrong account. If payment was made to the account you specified they won't be much help.
My only experience of using Western Union was when a buyer (from India) said he didn't have Paypal and the cost of an international wire transfer was too high for him, so he asked if he could pay by WU. I agreed as he was happy to wait until I had the money before I posted, and a couple of days later he emailed me with a transaction code and told me that I had to take the code & some ID along with his info and that of the transaction to a WU office to get the payment. To cut a long story short it me took 3 visits before I could show them sufficient proof that I was the person the money had been sent to - they needed my passport for photo ID, and a utility bill showing my name & the address he had logged in their system, and at one point the fact that my passport showed my middle name (which I hadn't given to him) meant the transaction had to be cancelled and the payment re-issued in my full name :roll: .
My experience is therefore that it isn't easy for anyone to get the money even if they know the details of the transaction (i.e. how much, from whom and from where) and have the code. There are a lot of hoops to jump through.
Anyway, the point that Seikopath made initially was that a paypal gift doesn't offer the protection Paypal offer with a standard payment, and I added that neither does a bank transfer (people tend to believe their bank will help them out if a deal goes sour, when the fact is that they won't unless they have made a mistake and sent the payment to the wrong place). If things go wrong you always have the option of getting the police involved (although convincing them to take action might not be that easy TBH), but that wasn't really the point.
So if a PayPal gift doesn't offer protection, do people specify it as a payment method because then they avoid PP fees? Because if so, I don't quite get why they don't just ask for a bank transfer..?
the quote you were commenting on said offers "no security whatsoever" I was pointing out it may not offer security from the bank but would if the police got involved.
your example seems to show it is hard to scam using WU but it is also clear WU is the con artists prefered method of payment so there are ways around it,I would also think it doesn't help that a worker in a WU, I would guess wouldn't be on much more than the min wage,so guessing these rules in some countries may not be followed as strictly as a bank.
some people feel very uncomforable giving out BT details.
Is that really it? Given if you are a seller you need disclose nothing more than the account & sort code, how much risk is there? a PayPal account is far less secure than 99% of bank accounts (who typically have multilevel access security). I mean, I don't need a seller's address to send them money...some people feel very uncomforable giving out BT details.
It just gives potential buyers more options....personally i will usually give the option but if it's an unknown quantity/much money/just not too comfortable i will always ask for a bank transfer.
I can back up what Rich said above about WU...i too once recieved payment from someone using WU and i too had to roll out loads of id to convince them i was who i said i was.
That said i would never,ever use it to pay someone.
Is that really it? Given if you are a seller you need disclose nothing more than the account & sort code, how much risk is there? a PayPal account is far less secure than 99% of bank accounts (who typically have multilevel access security). I mean, I don't need a seller's address to send them money...some people feel very uncomforable giving out BT details.
not in my experience. It's probably more to do with PayPal being immediate, whereas many banks still take 3 days to process a BACS payment (mine does = Santander).Is that really it?some people feel very uncomforable giving out BT details.
most banks are immediate or within a few hours but yeah some still can take days so I agree that is part of it but even with paypal once the payment to sent it still needs to be sent to your bank which I think paypal state takes 7 days,I really to think peolpe think BT details are too personal to give out to just anyone and see an email address as much less risky,I know the first time I gave my details out I rang my bank to confirm it was safe,being told that sort codes and accounts numbers have been appearing on each cheque I ever gave out also helped lol.not in my experience. It's probably more to do with PayPal being immediate, whereas many banks still take 3 days to process a BACS payment (mine does = Santander).Is that really it?some people feel very uncomforable giving out BT details.
I would rather use PP gift as it is easier for me (I don't really use internet banking) but, if I was purchasing a high value item, I'd use PP and offer to pay the fees.
As for WU being hard to get payment from ? If you have the right ID it is quite simple and that ID need not be genuine. The fact that an isolated exchange leaves no trail means it is perfect for scammers the world over....but more so in countries where ID is easy to come by and checked less vigourously.
When i buy one watch, i buy the seller first
Few years ago i'm victim scamming and loose a lot of money and i pay by bank transfer ...
So now first the buyer and all experience here are smooth
I hope that's not quite what you mean....?
:( no victim
i never forgot his name LONDIS
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