Reply With QuoteOld over new for me, but only if he wants to. He's too old to have his arm twisted.
Having said that, LLB sounds more purposeful than the more general BSc.
Hi Folks,
My Son had his results today and had 3 A*, which is fab but not unexpected as he seems to be able to sleep all the time drink excessively and not come home for days on end but still walk all his assignments and exams "but i digress", the question i have is he originally gave his firm choice to study Criminology and a very well respected "old" university which is local to us as he wants to stay at home "I wonder why!"
anyway he has now said that he wants to use "adjustment" to change his course to Law but as they have no places in the university he has been excepted into he would have to go to a less respected "New" university.
My Question is from anyone in the know is are his prospects better with a law degree (LLB) from a newer uni or a criminology degree (BSC) from an older uni.
all comments welcome and gratefully received.
Regards
Rich
Old over new for me, but only if he wants to. He's too old to have his arm twisted.
Having said that, LLB sounds more purposeful than the more general BSc.
One of the major factors will be who he meets when he is there, the network of uni friends can be invaluable and that network would probably be more "useful" at the older uni. The law degree will open more doors but at a guess he will do whatever he wants anyway.
thanks your right he will but in all fairness he asked me to ask on here, he's interested in if in the "real" world people care more about if you have a certain type of degree rather than where you got it or vice versa ?Originally Posted by IANAN
it's driving him mad and he usually is not rattled by anything :cry:
It seems that there is something of a shift in the dynamic and that more attention is now being paid to the course and the merits of a given university's reputation in providing it. There is of course (and always will be) the Oxbridge factor but a good degree from a recognised leader in that field will always be an advantage.
I work in recruitment, and I have to say that where the degree came from is an important factor. There are a lot more people with degrees out there these days, and so the kind of course and where you did it will be given some weight.
Dave E
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day
Thanks what's your take on Law V Criminolgy, criminal justice Career wise and £££ as he has an interest in both but looking for long term security as well
Rich
Without knowing the specifics of which universities you mean (I'm pretty sure Oxbridge doesn't offer Criminology) it's hard to say, but in general the legal profession responds better to those with connections (from a "good" / "old" university) who do a Law Conversion Course (often sponsored by a firm) than those who do jurisprudence up front. It's only an extra six months to a year via this route before you're qualified, and can open up many more doors in the long run. Especially if it isn't "real" / "traditional" jurisprudence and is the LLB... Furthermore, a BSc might give a few more options if he changes his mind about career path - again, without knowing more specific details it's hard to say.
All that said, he'll be at university for the most formative three / four years of his life, so he probably ought to pick the place he thinks he'll be happier (as that will lead, indirectly, to a better degree!).
Very difficult to split that one, unfortunately.
Thanks what's your take on Law V Criminolgy, criminal justice Career wise and £££ as he has an interest in both but looking for long term security as well
Rich
Does he want to be a lawyer? If so, then the law degree is going to be a clear winner. If not, it depends somewhat on the content of the criminology degree. Which is he likely to enjoy more, and therefore likely to succeed at? The one that holds his interest longest and best is likely to be the better choice in that case.
Remember that school and university are different learning environments, he will probably have to change how he works when he gets there. That one I can assure you from personal experience. At school I did well, never had to put much effort in to get good grades, and therefore didn't really learn how to discipline myself to do things like revise effectively. At uni this didn't work so well for me, and I came out with a 2.ii rather than the 2.i I was probably capable of. Picking the subject that will hold his interest best will help him avoid that pitfall. (I read philosophy, politics and economics, but my interest was in the philosophy primarily, which didn't help me when it came to finals and I tripped up on some of the other areas due to having not focussed on them as well.)
If he isn't going to directly use the degree subject vocationally, then course content will matter. What is he going to learn in terms of skills that will help him more generally in life? Law will teach him to remember a lot of facts and information, and should teach him to analyse and argue effectively, which are useful skills whatever he does. I'm less sure about what criminology will entail, but I'd have thought it should give him a fairly broad base of skills as well.
Long term career prospects and £££? Who knows? I believe that uni should be about more than just the job you'll get at the end of it. It should be about growing up, and about enriching yourself mentally (how pretentious does that sound?) and about learning how to think independently.
Ranking one against the other? Law is a bit more of a classic subject, so therefore a little more prestigious, but criminology isn't a Mickey Mouse subject, so there isn't a huge gap there. An 'old' uni does carry more weight with employers than a 'new' one, but the difference can be fairly small depending on the institutions in question. Personally I'd err more on the side of the institution, but that's probably because I did a non-vocational course at an 'old' uni, so that's more in tune with how I did it. The uni I went to has probably done me more good in my career than the particular course, it has certainly opened doors that I would otherwise not have got through I suspect.
My advice would be to focus on the course and the institution. Which one is he going to enjoy being at more, and which subject will hold his attention best and the longest, which does he have more passion for? Those are the bits that matter, as they're the bits that will make his time at uni more rewarding for him. Don't just focus on what happens when he graduates, he really does have to enjoy and get something out of the bit before that.
Sorry that this is a bit rambley and incoherent, it's late and my brain isn't functioning as well as it might this evening!
Dave E
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day
Good advice of "do what he thinks he'll enjoy most" - three or four years from now his aims may have changed, so might as well have the maximum fun just now!
Something to maybe investigate - how do they compare for "ease of getting a high level degree"? - I did Business Studies, of approx. 100 students there was only one first (not me!) yet mates of mine who did Computing had a dozen or so firsts out of maybe 50 students. This can be important for the steps after Uni, when I started CA training I noted a lot of the candidates hired by the Big Six (at the time) accounting firms took folks who had firsts regardless of the background degree, there was a surprising amount of History, Art and Language grads who had never done any number-work in their lives :lol:
Thanks guys something to think about in your replies dave it was not rambling but very incitefull thank you
@ Granitequarry thanks for your input both degree programs seem quite tough although to get in Criminology his offer required AAA, an interview and was heavily over subscribed the Law was ABB and an interview they still have places left in the uni for Law and thats all disciplines i.e. commercial, criminal even Law With Criminology but in the "old" uni they only have maybe "5 " clearing options and thats in all subjects none in law which is what made him look at other Uni's
Regards
Rich
Is deferring for a year and applying for law met year an option? Also what were the new universities he's been looking at?
it really depends what he wants to do afterwards? (if he knows at this stage ofc.)
having practised law in the City, my view is that the quality of the uni and the grades are more important than the subject itself provided that the degree has some relevance to practice - anything techie is usually quite well received. criminology though worries me slightly from that perspective (but again this is only relevant if a career in commercial law is on the cards).
i'm happy to chat off board if it'll help.
regards
Josh
Hi Folks,
Thanks to everyone who gave advice and especially Dave "Bristolian" who really went out of his way off site to give us loads of information and advice Thanks Buddy :)
he has decided to except the offer in Criminology at the "red brick" uni amd will then complete "if he still wants to" the CPE and take this route into law as he feels the instituion and subject which was his first choice is the right one.
Again thank you all
Richie & Greg
Thanks after checking it seems it does http://www.crim.ox.ac.uk/ http://www.crim.cam.ac.uk/ and is quite a highly regarded subject :? these days
It sounds a good decision, imho.
The criminology with provide rigour, and a wide range of disciplines and aspects,which is very beneficial indeed, and the CPE is an excellent way later on; in terms of structure and interest, and the synthesis of the two, this is very apt. All the more given his interests.
Also, for research work, the exposure to the many facets of criminology, from the sciences to arts will be very helpful and understanding the different approaches excellent.
I would also recommend he learns about wide aspects of society, such as philosophy and religion, and their many permutations in society as these are growing in importance to understand, navigate and to take views upon, including developing one's own. It would he harder to do later on, and it is a very good opportunity to do so.
Best wishes with it all and congratulations.
Sincerely,
AP.
Thank you he is so much more settled now he has decided and cant wait to start "Drinking" sorry i mean studying in September
Rich
My university offers an excellent postgraduate degree in computer forensics which is a subject which will just get bigger. Couple that with a first degree in Criminology and you are looking at some very serious earning potential...
Sounds good fingers crossed I do believe he has made the right choice even if what he eventually does something different with it all thanks for your advice
For what it's worth, I think he made the right choice.
Dave E
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day
I'm a bit late to the party on this one, but congratulations to your son on his excellent results!
From what you've said, it sounds like he has made the right decision as it the one that he is happy with.
I will defer to others' knowledge regarding legal careers. That said, I should note that some law courses do seem to require you having done Law as an undergraduate.
I was fortunate to study at Cambridge and, whilst I didn't study law, I was a postgraduate with (and friends with) many students doing the LL.M (Master of Law). I was ready to write in this thread that some of them hadn't done Law as undergraduates as that was my impression until a moment ago. However, having looked at the Facebook profiles of some of them, they all seem to have studied Law as undergraduates. Looking at the entry criteria for the Cambridge LL.M course, it does state an undergraduate degree in Law (although it will consider people that have a non-law degree but substantial relevant legal experience or another legal qualification) (http://www.law.cam.ac.uk/courses/llm-ac ... ements.php).
However, this is of course just one course at one university and I'm sure that there are plenty of other options out there that would be open to him should he want to pursue a career in law.
As for universities, I would always advise to go for the best that you can possibly get into (certainly with regards subject, but perhaps even more-so the institution itself).
Not at undergraduate level they don't :?Thanks after checking it seems it does http://www.crim.ox.ac.uk/ http://www.crim.cam.ac.uk/ and is quite a highly regarded subject :? these days
My son seems to think that is due to it being part of oxbridges law course rather than separate disciplines but I really do not know maybe someone who does know can tell as it's really irrelevant to him as he is not going thereNot at undergraduate level they don't :?Thanks after checking it seems it does http://www.crim.ox.ac.uk/ http://www.crim.cam.ac.uk/ and is quite a highly regarded subject :? these days
http://www.crim.ox.ac.uk/othercourses/othercourses.htm
That all I could see from a quick search seems your both right
Well, I disagree with the choice.
An LLB will take a person further, wider and higher than any criminology degree will. Criminology is interesting but it will always be a lower paid, specialised and institutional pusuit.
Law doesn't have that restriction. It leads everywhere. From private practice to corporate practice to management to business to politics to, well, anywhere you want. A law degree doesn't teach much about the law. It teaches you how to think and that is why it leads everywhere.
As he gets older, in order to advance within or from criminology he will be forced to take further study. With law, further study is useful, but optional.
Yes, yes, we all know you're a freaking lawyer! When's your next Shuttle flight? :lol:
I'm not even convinced that there should be an undergraduate law degree at university. It is too much of a vocational degree. In this case, I prefer the way that it is generally done in the USA where it is a post graduate degree.
As an aside. Over the years, quite a few of the students I've taught doing Greats (classics) have gone on to do law conversion courses.
My brother in law did Greats, then taught classics at a public school, then got a BPhil. and DPhil. in Philosophy, then taught Philosophy at Oxford, then did a law conversion course, then practiced law for a bit, then decided law was soul destroying, so went back to teaching classics. So, obviously, doing something like Greats as an undergraduate gives one more options in the long run than doing some quite so vocational as law. :)
Best wishes,
Bob
PS Just how specialized university education should be is controversial, of course. In general it is more specialized in England than in Scotland, and much more specialized than it is in the USA. I suspect that the USA system is too general, while the English system is too specialized. Something like the Scottish system (perhaps a bit more general) seems to me the way to go.
RLF
The law conversion course route after a 1st degree in something else has many advantages - most law firms and chambers look for candidates with much more than the bare academic & vocational stage legal qualifications - particularly work experience outside law that will either demonstrate some maturity or will provide a practical adjunct to working as a lawyer, such as accountancy skills or, say, medical training for intending clinical negligence lawyers.
In my view, a first degree in law (rather than the postgrad route) for an intending lawyer is, presently, almost a handicap unless its a First or 2:1 from Oxbridge / Russell Group - even then you would need a lot of extra curriculars to compete with many of the postgrads.
Is legal work soul destroying?
- Depends on the fee...
I thought you were actually contracted to sell your soul to the devil to be a lawyer - or maybe it was just in that Keanu/Pacino movie :lol:
In terms of breadth, I agree Bob - the Scottish system makes much sense. The English is often perhaps somewhat too specialized, in general, and does not offer quite the same breadth. The extra year also enables the generalities and specialties to be engaged with under the Scottish system, indeed students often attend to and indeed try a number of subjects prior to deciding upon their focus, meantime much is learned and gained, imho, and it is creditable all the more.
--
I still think its a a good decision as the criminology can well lead to law ( a conversion, for example) and will offer considerable related depth and other approaches also. If that is where his heart is set, then it would be good to pursue it. He may keep his eyes and ears out as regards other subjects, in case he finds it is not for him, and then a more general course may be in the offing to give a wider range of possible positions, vocations or jobs as well as interest (this must be the primary factor, if at all possible).
Br,
AP. :)
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