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Thread: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

  1. #1

    New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Hi All,

    Just following up my earlier post. To satisfy the curious - I've added pictures of the movement etc. at the end.
    I've now worn the watch for a couple of days and it's remarkably accurate - gain/loss of less than 8 seconds in 24 hours.


    Just thought I'd make a few of you jealous !!

    I've been looking for one of these for a while - but they are as rare as hens teeth !!

    Jaeger LeCoultre 'Polaris' - all original - 1967, case is a bit scruffy and a few chips on the inner bezel - still not bad for a watch almost 40 years old.

    This is a E-859 (Bumper Automatic) movement with mechanical alarm that can be heard underwater (I've not tried it !!) The watch is super rare particularly as it has the full name 'Jaeger LeCoutre' on the dial designating it as a European model of which - reportedly - there were only around 100 made. The USA version 'LeCoultre' is still pretty rare with just 1600 or so made.

    Anyway, here are some pictures - I hope you like it !!


























  2. #2
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Loverly - very nice indeed. Contrats :D

    Andy

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  3. #3
    Craftsman
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    A '68... superb... remember the head's up if the time ever comes :bounce:

  4. #4

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    They are gorgeous watches.

    There was a post on timezone some time ago - someone who'd bought two of them NOS in the 90s was gloating about how cheaply he'd bought them compared to the (then) new reissues..

  5. #5

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Nice vintage JLC Polaris I just like those compressor watches.

  6. #6

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Beautiful......................................... ................
    Not much more to say really!!!!!!!!!!
    :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

  7. #7
    Master Plake's Avatar
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Thanks for opening it up. Didn't realise it was a bumper until now. Love bumpers...... :(

  8. #8
    Master
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Lovely, absolutely lovely. Whilst I wouldn't dream of asking what you paid, I don't suppose you could give a rough idea of the going rate for one of these - if there is a going rate for such a scarce watch.

  9. #9

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Is the stud on the inside case back something to do with the alarm? intriguing...

  10. #10

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    I would explain the pin as follows.

    The pin is attached to a 'secondary' back that you can see under the holes in previous pictures.

    The mechanical alarm 'hammer' vibrates striking the pin and resonates the secondary back and the sound is amplified by 'squirting' through the holes.

    Not a very technical explanation, but I hope you get the idea !

  11. #11
    Poirot
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    I also love JLC.

  12. #12

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    That is a stunning watch - great movement/looks, and a fantastic complication. I am sure you will enjoy wearing it.

  13. #13
    Master Franco's Avatar
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Congratulations ..... and welcome to the club.

    I also have a nice one, with the full box and papers (see pics below).

    The informations that I have on production numbers are however different from what you have.

    The Polaris was produced in all its possible variants in 1714 pieces. Of these , the first 50 were a prototype in 1963 which was never marketed.
    Then there were the 1965 LeCoultre, but the ref E859 (the "type 1968" Polaris - the one we are talking about) was produced in 1205 pieces,
    of which 1150 in 1968 and 55 in 1970. There is no evidence that most of these were LeCoultre rather than Jaeger LeCoultre.

    The much discrepant production LeCoultre vs Jaeger LeCoultre (although perhaps not as much as 1:17) that you mention is instead true for the ref. E857, i.e. the gorgeous Deep-Sea alarm, of which the JLC specimens are extremely rare (I only have seen one, in Zaf Basha's book).

    For a comprehensive review in english, see : http://jlc.watchprosite.com/show-forump ... 06376/s-0/
    For a comprehensive review in italian, see : http://orologi.forumfree.it/?t=49839141 (to be soon enriched)

    Am I right in saying that the outer ring dial in yours has been repainted, and both hands and the medium dial have been relumed? Sorry but the case looks suspicious.

    Best wishes
    Franco




  14. #14

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franco
    Congratulations ..... and welcome to the club.

    I also have a nice one, with the full box and papers (see pics below).

    Best wishes
    Franco

    Yummy :)

  15. #15
    Master Franco's Avatar
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    I am sorry to say that, after consultation in the vintage JLC forum, this watch seems to be a fake.

    I hope you can pursue the seller and get your money refunded.

    Best wishes
    Franco

  16. #16
    Master
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Goodness me, this is really bad news if the watch is indeed a fake. I hope the OP will be able to have his money refunded.

  17. #17

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Whilst im still pretty new in the watch game, if the OP's JLC is a fake, it would certainly have me fooled!

  18. #18

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Hi,

    I've been in touch with the seller, he is still convinced that the watch is genuine and has invited me to send it to JLC at his cost for verification.

    Unfortunately, with the doubts cast on the watch - I now feel uncomfortable with it and will pursue a refund.

    I will keep you in the loop.

  19. #19
    Master
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    That sounds a very fair offer by the seller & would give you total piece of mind. Additionally I would expect to recieve a written confirmation from Jaeger along with a definitive year of manufacture which will be a nice to keep with the watch. I would give this a go personally if you really like the watch as I'm sure you are.

  20. #20
    Master Franco's Avatar
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Hi

    that sounds very honourable by the seller. Please make sure that you have all his contacts because he may still however disappear after the bad news.

    The watch is definitely a fake. The only original part is the movement, and there is no doubt whatsoever that it will be declared fake.

    I would suggest, for a faster turnaround, that you get in touch with Richemont UK, or with a vintage dealer whose opinion is going to be acceptable by the seller. Perhaps in this country James Dowling or Mike Woods.

    The only way forwrd is to understand what is the faster way to have your money back, and what is needed exactly by the seller to admit it is a fake

    Best wishes
    Franco

  21. #21

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    I bought a JLC (alarm watch as well) a while ago, and it was a simmilar case: recased original movement (coming, probably, from a pendant watch?). The watch is nice, but of course it was a big mistake, a beginnerīs mistake....

    This being a (fake) Polaris, I can imagine this was a very expensive mistake....

  22. #22
    pitpro
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Franco(or anyone)
    How about sharing what tipped you off as to the watch being fake.
    To me either the middle dial is too small or the inner bezel is too small because the markers are too far away from the inner rotating bezel. Also the crowns looked made up to me. I love the Polaris and have been looking for a vintage one for a while, so any information on how to spot fakes would be appreciated.
    Thanks
    John

    Quote Originally Posted by Franco
    I am sorry to say that, after consultation in the vintage JLC forum, this watch seems to be a fake.

    I hope you can pursue the seller and get your money refunded.

    Best wishes
    Franco

  23. #23
    Master Franco's Avatar
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    I do not feel comfortable to talk about other's watches - if the original poster (noiseboyuk) shows to agree - then no problem.

  24. #24

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franco
    I do not feel comfortable to talk about other's watches - if the original poster (noiseboyuk) shows to agree - then no problem.
    I must have misunderstood when you wrote

    "Am I right in saying that the outer ring dial in yours has been repainted, and both hands and the medium dial have been relumed? Sorry but the case looks suspicious."
    "I am sorry to say that, after consultation in the vintage JLC forum, this watch seems to be a fake."
    "The watch is definitely a fake. The only original part is the movement, and there is no doubt whatsoever that it will be declared fake."

    because you didn't seem to need to ask permission to write that. Why go all coy now when you could be quite helpful?

  25. #25

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by doctorj
    Why go all coy now when you could be quite helpful?
    Just what I wondered too :roll:

  26. #26
    Master Franco's Avatar
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Guys

    sorry but English is not my first language .... doesn't "coy" have a negative connotation?
    Something like "fictitiously shy"? In this case, I do object to this term, and piss off.

    I have posted here my thoughts, and things have evolved on a different forum, the JLC Vintage Forum.
    In PM I adviced the original poster to post there , to have further opinions on the watch that here had
    been just admired etc

    In the whole process the original poster has not even replied to me with a thank you for having exposed the
    problems with his watch, and possibly making a refund possible.

    I have then interpreted this lack of reply by the poster as a signal NOT TO LIKE further discussions while
    he is trying to get his money back.

    That is all, I am very open to discussion - nothing cowardly or shy about me - just trying to be respectful of
    the original poster's need.

  27. #27
    pitpro
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Well I have no problem trying to help others spot fake watches.
    In addition to what I stated in posts above(which after reading posts
    at Classicwatch forum, were spot on the money) here's what I see
    wrong with the watch:
    Inner bezel is too small because the markers are too far away from the inner rotating bezel(BIGGEST RED FLAG)
    Inner bezel numbers too small.
    Crystal is wrong. Not domed.
    Case is wrong. Bezel too thick. Bezel doesn't have rounded edges. Bevel on lugs wrong. Pry points in the case for the outer snap back cover are wrong.
    Lume section on the minute hand is wrong. Should go further towards the tip.
    The crowns looked made up to me. Interior of the square cross hatches too small, cuts too deep.
    Maybe if there was a discussion like this in the past, this guy may have looked more closely at the watch.
    If there is one fake like this discovered, there are more out there.
    This watch is big money. Airing the problems with this watch can only help anyone interested in
    aquiring this watch.

  28. #28

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Good luck with the refund OP.

  29. #29

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Hi All,

    Clearly, I bought the watch in good faith and paid a substantial amount of money for it.

    I have purchased from the vendor in the past and I believe that he would not have sold the watch to me knowing it to be fake. However, I need to receive my refund before I can totally vouch for his honesty.

    Assuming that he is honorable, he will also be pursuing the next vendor in the chain and so on.

    I have not responded further in this forum because I believe that it may be unhelpful and may disrupt any chain of events, whereby all injured parties get recompense, leaving just the original vendor 'in the hole'.

    I appreciate that it would be useful to have a discussion on the 'why's and wherefores' of this particular piece, but please bear in mind that an open discussion may result in an innocent party being substantially out of pocket.

    I'll happily develop this thread further when I feel that all interests have been satisfied.

    I hope you all understand my motives for being reluctant to discuss further.

    Incidentally, I am grateful to Franco for his 'heads-up' on this piece and I apologise that I hadn't contacted him for 'flagging it up'.

    Thanks for all your interest.

  30. #30
    Master
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Good luck with getting your refund, let us know the result.

  31. #31
    Master Franco's Avatar
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    May I wish you all the best for your refund, and I am pleased that I interpreted well your silence.

  32. #32

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franco
    May I wish you all the best for your refund, and I am pleased that I interpreted well your silence.
    Franco - just so you know - 'coy' means shy or withdrawn, so the person making the remark meant nothing bad, merely puzzled as to why you weren't posting more information.
    That, as we see, has also been explained as being nothing more than a gentlemanly act on your part for the benefit of the original poster.

    Thanks.

  33. #33
    Journeyman
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    New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Nice

  34. #34

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfs74
    Nice
    What's "nice" about this situation?

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  35. #35
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy
    Quote Originally Posted by dfs74
    Nice
    What's "nice" about this situation?

    R
    viewtopic.php?f=15&t=133622

    Nice is a 51st Post in TZ-UK Sales Corner of course........

  36. #36

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by burnsey66
    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy
    Quote Originally Posted by dfs74
    Nice
    What's "nice" about this situation?

    R
    viewtopic.php?f=15&t=133622

    Nice is a 51st Post in TZ-UK Sales Corner of course........
    Nice.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  37. #37
    Grand Master
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franco
    sorry but English is not my first language .... doesn't "coy" have a negative connotation?
    Something like "fictitiously shy"? In this case, I do object to this term, and piss off.
    Nice.
    ...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!

  38. #38
    Master
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy
    Quote Originally Posted by burnsey66
    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy
    Quote Originally Posted by dfs74
    Nice
    What's "nice" about this situation?

    R
    viewtopic.php?f=15&t=133622

    Nice is a 51st Post in TZ-UK Sales Corner of course........
    Nice.

    R
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsQYzpOHpik

  39. #39
    Master Franco's Avatar
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    hello Guys

    to close the story, I understand that the original poster has now been refunded. The seller still claims that it is a good Polaris, however he has tried to resell it on eBay and had to pull it out. Shame if it ends up just passed on to somebody else ....

    BWs
    Franco

  40. #40

    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Hi All,

    As I started this post it seems only right to bring everyone up to date.

    I returned the watch to the vendor who who then refunded me - Unfortunately I still lost a substantial amount on the deal because of currency exchanges both ways.

    The vendor had it checked again at his watchmaker - he says that his watchmaker re-confirms that the watch is genuine, clearly from all other accounts this seems to be wrong.

    The vendor says that he has now returned the watch to the original supplier because the whole episode has become too controversial and he values his reputation.

    I will just add that I have had a previous transaction with this seller and had no problems at all, he has excellent Ebay feedback and ultimately, he did refund me.

    I guess it's a singular lesson to be more careful !!!

  41. #41
    Master dejjl's Avatar
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    I am pleased that you were refunded, although I know from personal experience that currency conversions leave you out of pocket.....I hope the loss wasn't too big.

    One to put down to experience I think.

    Take care.

  42. #42
    Master Franco's Avatar
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    I am so pleased all is ended OK. Obviously his watchmaker is not quite so expert in vintage JLCs.

    As promised before, now is the moment to discuss what was a fake about it. I post below some comparison pictures, showing on the left the Polaris originally posted, and on the right a certified JLC Polaris. We will only discuss macroscopical difference, of the type that can be spotted even in this size of pictures, as you may find in an eBay auction. Clearly macro pictures would reveal an other myriad of different details.

    From the front, it is evident the total discrepancy of the rotating minute dial, and the bezel which is raised to accommodate a domed crystal. The major differences can be seen in the side view of the case, where the one on the right it is much thicker, and not just because of the tall, armoured and stepped crystal, but for the depth of the case below the crowns - i.e. the part of the case specifically employed in the alarm function.

    Crowns on the left have been reproduced with gross cuts, and there is a stepped circular cut that it is absent in the original crowns. The back has been reproduced without the depth of the original, and the holes have been drilled in a different size.

    Best wishes and congratulations to the original poster for his escape
    Franco



  43. #43
    Master
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    Re: New Arrival, Vintage JLC Polaris - follow-up.

    Wow :shock:

    The side by side comparisson certainly explains a lot. The differences are huge, by that i mean really noticable.

    Glad the OP got refunded and it ends reasonably, even with the loss due to currency exchange.

    Don't give up, keep looking as the real piece is a truly stunning piece!!

    8)

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