South African Navy issue Tudor Submariners. (pics added)

[Gunscrossed]

South African Navy issue Tudor Submariners.


I?ve always liked the look of the 70?s Tudor Subs, I can remember looking at them in jeweller?s windows as a teenager and I regret not buying one then. The only thing that stopped me at the time was that the watch I really wanted was a Rolex Sub or Sea-dweller and to buy the Tudor somehow seemed like admitting defeat. A few years later I got my Rolex but the Tudor still seemed like a good watch and I still liked the ?square? hands and dial markers.

Whilst on the lookout for a vintage Tudor Sub. lately I saw what looked like a nice original one on an online auction site! The single photo was not very good, but I could see that the watch came with some paperwork and what looked like some spares. I e-mailed the seller and asked if he could send some better pictures, which he did, and in the photo of the case back I could clearly see some numbers engraved. During one of our e-mail exchanges I?m sure the seller said he bought the watch in South Africa and that it had belonged to a ?Clearance Diver?. So putting two and two together I thought that the watch might be worth a bid, I was getting quite excited at this point but could find no information anywhere about the watches issued to the RSA Navy, I eventually won the auction and then set about trying to research the watch properly.

Photos of the case back were posted on several watch related Internet forums in the hope that someone might recognise the markings. I also e-mailed the seller but he was hard work, always replying to questions with one word answers etc.
A day or so passed and I thought I?d drawn blank but then almost unbelievably there was a post on the Military Watch Forum saying that the watch was definitely SA Navy issue and that the poster (who lived in South Africa) had two very similar both bought from ex-Navy divers! On the same day I received an e-mail from my seller saying that he had been a clearance diver with the SA Navy from 1989-94.
The specs of my watch are as follows;

Tudor Oyster Prince Submariner, model no. 7016/0. Signed ?Rolex?on crown (Triplock), caseback, bracelet and clasp. Tudor on the dial and movement.

Case: Stainless steel, all polished except for brushed finish to tops of and between lugs; screw back signed "Original Oyster Case by Rolex Geneva"; water resistant to 200m/660ft; 'Square'-style hands; weight incl. steel bracelet approx. 90g; 39.5mm Ø across bezel excl. crown; 20mm between lugs; 47.5mm across lugs; 13.5mm overall thickness. Tritium paint on hands and hour markers.

Crown: 7mm Ø screwdown Triplock signed with Rolex crown symbol.

Bracelet: Stainless steel ref. 9315 12-link oyster, flip lock deployant clasp with Rolex crown symbol and divers extension.

Bezel: Bi-directional, no indents.

Crystal: Acrylic, convex.

Movement: ETA2483, 25-jewel non-date.

Of the other known South African Navy Tudors one is also a 7016/0 with the serial number 338 more than mine, the other is a slightly later model 94010.

The following is a small insight into the work of the Clearance/Combat divers of the SA Navy in the 1970?s-80?s, written by an ex-Navy diver;

?I am an ex-navy diver, started as a ships diver and later qualified to the ranks of combat divers. Combat Divers is a unique group and I do believe that they qualify as a "Elite Force". In the 70's Naval Clearance Diving Instructors were on loan to train Special Forces Divers in the use of Close Circuit O2 diving equipment and on some missions also accompanied these forces as part of a Naval support group.
The training of combat divers over lap the diving training given to Special Forces Divers in several areas, both units use close-circuit O2 diving equipment and is trained in underwater sabotage, demolitions and reconnaissance.
One of the main differences is in the area of operation, naval combat divers operate mostly under water and very seldom leave the water, while Special Forces divers, often venture further than the beach-head and conduct a variety of mission far in land. There is often confusion about the term Special Forces (Commando / SEAL type units), Naval combat divers and the term Special Operations (Spec. Ops. )
Special Forces operate under the umbrella of special operations, however naval combat divers are often called upon to work in conjunction with Special forces specially during induction and extraction of these forces using either submarines or other naval surface vessels.
Combat Divers are often part of the integrated combined forces used in support of Special Forces during Special Operations.
They are very flexible and in peace time will operate as engineers, construction divers, salvage teams, air and sea rescue, but also play a very important role conducting explosive ordnance disposal (IEOD) as clearance divers to safe guard naval and sea ports in compliance with the new ISPS regulations against terrorism.
During the last 15 years and post "Apartheid" era more and more information became available in the public domain.
Even to someone like me that grew up in this era and served many years in the SADF, it is still fascinating and sometimes even mind-boggling to read about the events and to connect the dots completing some very interesting stories of the past.
The pure scope of events, the extreme distances over which battles were fought, the large concentration of Soviet weapons backed by Cuban, Russian, East German and even Chinese forces made this war a very complex and logistically difficult war for South Africa. Soldiers on patrol often had to run for cover or sleep at night in trees to avoid elephant herds or lions. Crossing rivers even not under attack was made very difficult, as they often became prey to crocodile attacks. This all in the face of a total international arms embargo against SA. But as they say "When the going gets tough,.....then the tough gets going " South Africa as result had to be creative and flexible. They used every possible avenue and build the biggest and most sophisticated arms industry in Africa and to date even the USA is surprised by their inventions and designs born out of combat experience.
Here are some other units of the South African Defence Forces that performed exceptionally well under very harsh conditions: 32 Battalion - http://www.netcentral.co.uk/~cobus/32BAT.htm
Another very unique unit that might interest members of this forum is the "Selous Scouts?, a anti-terror unit with a great history fighting in Rhodesia (Zimbabwe); http://members.tripod.com/selousscouts/home_page.htm
Well I hope every one will enjoy reading some of the history and sharing the events that took place during some of the most difficult wars in Africa.?


Of course there is still a lot of research to do, both the South African collector and myself are a little reluctant to reveal the marking system used by the SA Navy for fear that these watches may go the same way as the French ?MN? Tudors, that is to say that ?Fakers? will set to work and attempt to reproduce these also.
I would be most interested to hear from other collectors who have or think they have a SA Navy Tudor or any ex-SA Navy divers.

I hope you have found this information interesting.

Peter Richards.

[Foggy]

Congratulations Peter

Thanks for the update on your research.

An already impressive watch, made even better with the military issue provenance. Looking forward to the pics. Enjoy your new Sub.

Cheers

Foggy

[Neil.C]

Very cool history Peter.

Thanks for posting.

Lets see those pics. :D

[Gunscrossed]

Recived this from the collector mentioned in South Africa;

"I am quite surprised that your diver acquired the watch as late as he did. I would have assumed 1970's at latest. The navy must have issued the watch to various people over time until your guy finally claimed or bought it. I have heard that military personel could buy their issue watches (at ridiculously low prices) when leaving the military. In fact, about four years ago a friend called me saying that he had an issued Submariner in his hands and that the parabat "owner" could buy the watch for less than 100 UK Pounds. I immediately offered him 10 times that amount, to no avail. I went on a frantic telephonic search and all I came up with was that there were 3 such watches remaining and that they all "belong" to top brass and that, by agreement, when one leaves, he hands the watch over to another one of the gang. Boo hoo! At first, they denied that any such watches were issued, then said that it must have been many years ago, and when I told them of the watch that my friend had called about, I was told about the buddy-agreement. Sounded true enough, but you never know."

Note: Parabat is the nickname for the South African Parachute Reg.
I have also recived an e-mail from the South African Navy confirming that the issued Rolex Submariners to their divers, I'm not sure if that means Rolex 'Tudor' Submariners but it would seem both were issued, it would be interesting to see how the issed Rolex subs are marked?

Peter

[Gunscrossed]

Here are a few picures, the watch was sent back to Rolex for service some time ago, they replaced the dial, hands, bezel and bracelet but returned the originals (except the bezel) which were included in the sale, I've put the watch on one of Eddie's grey NATO's for now, I guess this is probably the nearest I'll get to owning a Rolex mil-sub!

[abraxas]

.
Fantastic Thread Gunscrossed!

Eddie, would it be possible to get the Thread transferred to the Military section? It would be accessed more there.

john

[tudormic]

Great find! watch with real history. like it.

[Si]

Congratulations, Gunscrossed, a great addition to the collection!

Good to hear you had no problems from Rolex regarding return of original parts. I am finding them very amenable when it comes leaving a watch unpolished on request and retaining original parts.

Is the timekeeping good? Apparently they have some new equipment which involves a machine that photographs the hands as they progress in different positions, observes the date change etc , and supposedly is producing great results.

Nice watch, much prefer it to the blue (MN?) ones.

Si

[Gunscrossed]

Hi Si,

It was the previous owner that sent it in for service, I think it must have been some time ago because I've heard that the matt dials are no longer available?
It seems to be keeping very good time.

Thanks,
Peter

[davide]

Well done Peter - good buy of a great watch with a history. No doubt a keeper :wink:

[Crusader]

8) 8) 8)

Phantastic find, Peter!

Congratulations, and enjoy!! :D

[zackerty]

I am a South African living in NZ.
Rolex Submariners were issued in the 1970's, but the higher cost, led to Tudors being issued. No one was allowed to keep theirs, but every now and then, one would go "walkies" :(

I passed on a battered Ex Navy Rolex Sub a few years ago..to my continued shame and horror... :(

[doug darter]

Beautiful thread, interesting and enjoyable.

Thanks.