Why are Panerai so expensive?

[swanbourne]

I don't understand the need to discuss it every week. :(

Eddie

[Argee1977]

Panerai are never going to be cheap, which is a shame, as i said earlier, it is getting to the level where the normal guy who likes watches can't afford, or even dream to spend the money that Panerai/Rolex/JLC/AP/etc want for a watch these days.

I look with interest at the 'Limited' stuff for all these makers, this has reached the point where only the rich can play, same with vintage rolexes, the good stuff is no longer within reach of 99% of the population.

But saying that, i seriously doubt the market will collapse, so it's just a case of saving up for a long time to get a watch :(

[andrew]

I asked 2 questions:

'This means many/most of the components are sourced in the Far East ?
And then 'finished' in Switzerland ?'

One person said "But we all know what is mandatory for a watch being properly "Swiss Made". So, "Swiss" it is. I suspect it is not entirely Swiss though." You then took this as read, and asked

'This means many/most of the components are sourced in the Far East ?
And then 'finished' in Switzerland ?'

"Not entirely Swiss" could mean the case blanks come from Sweden and the crystal from South Korea. Or, it could not. Sorry, just that we have this tedious discussion thousands of times a year, and to the trashers of the Swiss watch and their owners (of whom there are many), it's just easier to feed them what they want and get on with our lives.

I don't get the "protect the brand" thing at all, makes no sense to me.

But you wear a Breitling so you dont understand quality anyway!

Your answer is the Standard F**Kwit reply.

For my part, I feel no need to defend the Breitling brand whatso ever, I like very few models in the range, but that's it.

[TheFlyingBanana]

This has been most interesting... I think.

What I was really looking for was an explanation of the manufacturing techniques, information about the movements, comments on the quality of the cases, mention of the straps and the clasps, enlightenment regarding the different models and their relative attributes, and insight into the history and development of the manufacture.

What I seem to have got is a lot of general ire about the value of prestige brands in general, and some ill-tempered comments about threads requesting such discussion in the first place...

Given that many TZ'ers (myself included) spend very considerable sums on these items I wouldn't have thought that a thread asking for opinion regarding their comparative value was that provocative.... I'm a little surprised to be honest.

:shock:

[andrew]

I know a lot of folk think that Panerai are made in China then assembled in Switzerland, but they've just opened up a huge state of the art workshop that produces the movements, cases, dials, etc. Have a look round this site and others for the info, they've pretty much got the most up to date facility in the watch world.

Very good. However, I've just read somewhere that only 50% of the watch needs to be Swiss, or something, so a Swiss tester can pass gas in the same room as a palletload of Chinese ETAs and eh wala!, as monoglots say, a roomful of slightly smelly but sufficiently Swiss movements. Also that a grease monkey from Jura can gob on a Marina Militaire case and whaddya know, it's now a case for a 233. And that this absoutely must mean that all Panerai are made in China. QED!

What I was really looking for was an explanation of the manufacturing techniques,

By singling out a notorious brand on a public forum short on logic and general knowledge (for example what were the relative FX rates when you bought your first one? What are they now?) but long on prejudice, using the title "Why are Panerai so expensive"?

If you want to know about Panerai manufacturing techniques, write to Panerai. They might even invite you to their factory.

In Guangzhou. *Cackle cackle* :twisted: :lol:

This has been most interesting... I think.

What I was really looking for was an explanation of the manufacturing techniques, information about the movements, comments on the quality of the cases, mention of the straps and the clasps, enlightenment regarding the different models and their relative attributes, and insight into the history and development of the manufacture.

What I seem to have got is a lot of general ire about the value of prestige brands in general, and some ill-tempered comments about threads requesting such discussion in the first place...

Given that many TZ'ers (myself included) spend very considerable sums on these items I wouldn't have thought that a thread asking for opinion regarding their comparative value was that provocative.... I'm a little surprised to be honest.

:shock:

My Yellow friend, this issue comes up every now and then, with the same results. The way it descends reminds me the the stoning scene from Life Of Brian.

Just for uttering words that remotely questions anything Panerai, you with be sentenced to death my Stoning, or at the very least be made to right out 100 times "I Love Panerai" in letters six foot high, all around the aquaduct. :D

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Oh, I think you may have known that the excrement would hit the air conditioning unit with this post :wink: :lol: People are very protective of their favourite brands, especially it seems Panerai which seem to polarize opinion.

I don't get the "protect the brand" thing at all, makes no sense to me.

TBH (and I know first hand ) this is probably people taking it as a criticism of their choice/taste in watches rather than defence of the brand.

Oh, I think you may have known that the excrement would hit the air conditioning unit with this post :wink: :lol: People are very protective of their favourite brands, especially it seems Panerai which seem to polarize opinion.

I don't get the "protect the brand" thing at all, makes no sense to me.

TBH (and I know first hand ) this is probably people taking it as a criticism of their choice/taste in watches rather than defence of the brand.

Chris,

The excitment is building, as I told you, my Pam is at the delivery depot and will be here in the morining, so perhaps my view will change. :lol:

[TheFlyingBanana]

This has been most interesting... I think.

What I was really looking for was an explanation of the manufacturing techniques, information about the movements, comments on the quality of the cases, mention of the straps and the clasps, enlightenment regarding the different models and their relative attributes, and insight into the history and development of the manufacture.

What I seem to have got is a lot of general ire about the value of prestige brands in general, and some ill-tempered comments about threads requesting such discussion in the first place...

Given that many TZ'ers (myself included) spend very considerable sums on these items I wouldn't have thought that a thread asking for opinion regarding their comparative value was that provocative.... I'm a little surprised to be honest.

:shock:

My Yellow friend, this issue comes up every now and then, with the same results. The way it descends reminds me the the stoning scene from Life Of Brian.

Just for uttering words that remotely questions anything Panerai, you with be sentenced to death my Stoning, or at the very least be made to right out 100 times "I Love Panerai" in letters six foot high, all around the aquaduct. :D

You are not kidding! I like lots of watches, I don't feel any particular emotional attachment to a specific brand and I completely fail to see how anyone could get so worked up. You would think I had questioned their mothers' morals or insulted the size of their...er... italian inspired watches.

They are only toys for boys for goodness sake!

Peace!
:)

[andrew]

You are not kidding! I like lots of watches, I don't feel any particular emotional attachment to a specific brand and I completely fail to see how anyone could get so worked up.

What I'm defending here is the value of knowledge. Too much unthinking, blissful ignorance around these parts, along with misinformation and a can't-be-arsed approach to even minimal research.

FlyingB: you must have known your approach was antagonistic. Unless Panerai management or engineers have joined this Groundhog Day-esque forum (extremely unlikely) no-one here is going to be more privy to their inner workings than the last time this question got asked, and it get asked a lot. That much is obvious.

What's not obvious, perhaps, is that my suggestion to write to Panerai wasn't intended to be facetious. Assuming you're genuinely interested in what goes into them, what have you got to lose?

[TheFlyingBanana]

FlyingB: you must have known your approach was antagonistic.

Absolutely not. Clearly I was naive.

I genuinely did not realise such topics were either contentious or controversial. I know better now.

Ridiculous.


(...and I rarely get irritated or annoyed at anything.)

I'll bow out of this storm in a tea-cup that I have inadvertently caused, just a little wiser than I was before.

[bioactif30]

In my opinion, they are very nice looking watches and very stylish, I dont think that they cost much, but the company position itself as high value brand so it has to make expensive to let the people feel they are buying better value product.
:roll:

[PekkaM]

I'm no Panerai fan and do not know them well.

Could someone explain this move from Firenze to Switzerland? What happened and why? Was it the Richemont takeover? They didn't move other brands, did they?

That is the biggest issue bugging me with the brand (in addition to the big price hikes). I feel more for Anonimo proudly stating it's origin. For me as a WIS, heritage and tradition are important! :)

[JasonM]

I cant believe these topics still get posted so regularly :lol:

Yep.

Go away for five years and you'd still come back to same old crap. :lol:

Its like I never went away Neil :lol:

[PekkaM]

Regarding prices and Panerai: There must be a strong connection between Panerai popularity and the current big watch boom. I wonder what happens when (eventually) the fashion goes back towards more discreet pieces? Many brands like IWC have taken a huge size step but Panerai and Anonimo in particular are big watch companies, nothing else.

[andrew]

FlyingB: you must have known your approach was antagonistic.

Absolutely not. Clearly I was naive.

Consider this:

Entry-level Panerai 2005: £1,500
Now: £2,890

GBP/CHF then: 2.25
Now: 1.60

Perceived size of pensions black hole then: negligible
Now: huge

Social costs of employing Western European then: $ 1x
Now: $ 1.25x

OIl price then: $40/barrel
Now: $80/barrel

Bank bonuses then: vast
Bank bonuses now: even more vast

Consider the final price in terms of cost of manufacture, supply and demand, and how insensitive to price that demand is. Also think about who's buying them, and how much spare money they've got. The real answer to your Q has probably got nothing to do with "Panerai" at all. Next time, frame the same question by asking about "Oris"!

EDIT: PekkaM makes another good point about the even greater appeal of Panerai, now that large watches are fully entrenched in the marketplace.

[quote="PekkaM"]I'm no Panerai fan and do not know them well.

Could someone explain this move from Firenze to Switzerland? What happened and why? Was it the Richemont takeover? They didn't move other brands, did they?


Mr Goebbels, from the marketing dept, will be along shortly to begin the briefing for you. :D

[aldfort]

I'm no Panerai fan and do not know them well.

Could someone explain this move from Firenze to Switzerland? What happened and why? Was it the Richemont takeover? They didn't move other brands, did they?

That is the biggest issue bugging me with the brand (in addition to the big price hikes). I feel more for Anonimo proudly stating it's origin. For me as a WIS, heritage and tradition are important! :)

you can look here

http://www.paneristi.com/archives/history.html

and here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panerai

you might also like this:

http://www.connectingwatches.com/forums ... le-(-pages)-25798.html

[100thmonkey]

Your answer is the Standard F**Kwit reply.

For my part, I feel no need to defend the Breitling brand whatso ever, I like very few models in the range, but that's it.

Shall I start to reel you in after getting you to bite so easily?

Your answer is the Standard F**Kwit reply.

For my part, I feel no need to defend the Breitling brand whatso ever, I like very few models in the range, but that's it.

Shall I start to reel you in after getting you to bite so easily?

I don't think so, as Chief Brody once said "your gonna need a bigger boat" :lol:

[PekkaM]

you can look here

http://www.paneristi.com/archives/history.html

and here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panerai

you might also like this:

http://www.connectingwatches.com/forums ... le-(-pages)-25798.html

Thanks but the first two don't give the answers and the third one is too hard to read :D

[lenlec]

lots of varying opinions here guys, ive never owned a pam, but recently tried on a 24 sub and was very impressed with it, not having followed prices over the last few yrs i aint sure if they are over priced? great looking watches anyway, if someone wants one and can afford it and it make them happy, fair play

andy

[Chris_in_the_UK]

you can look here

http://www.paneristi.com/archives/history.html

and here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panerai

you might also like this:

http://www.connectingwatches.com/forums ... le-(-pages)-25798.html

Thanks but the first two don't give the answers and the third one is too hard to read :D

Say after me.....G O O G L E :roll:

http://www.watchtalkforums.info/forums/ ... hp?t=28617

[PekkaM]

Say after me.....G O O G L E :roll:

http://www.watchtalkforums.info/forums/ ... hp?t=28617

You mean there's some information on this forum that cannot be googled from somewhere else? :D

Thanks anyway for the answer!

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Say after me.....G O O G L E :roll:

http://www.watchtalkforums.info/forums/ ... hp?t=28617

You mean there's some information on this forum that cannot be googled from somewhere else? :D

Apparently.............. :wink:

[shalako]

FlyingBanana wrote:What I was really looking for was an explanation of the manufacturing techniques, information about the movements, comments on the quality of the cases, mention of the straps and the clasps, enlightenment regarding the different models and their relative attributes, and insight into the history and development of the manufacture.

Some people get very protective/emotional when you talk about certain brands, I don't understand it either, it's like you've insulted their wife, bit sad really :? The other thing that makes me laugh is the people say they are bored with the thread yet take the time to both read and comment on it. :lol:
BTW, for what it's worth, if you read my original message in relation to this I do believe I talk about the quality of the movements and the case.......

[aliasrichmond]

Consider this:

Entry-level Panerai 2005: £1,500
Now: £2,890

GBP/CHF then: 2.25
Now: 1.60

Perceived size of pensions black hole then: negligible
Now: huge

Social costs of employing Western European then: $ 1x
Now: $ 1.25x

OIl price then: $40/barrel
Now: $80/barrel

Bank bonuses then: vast
Bank bonuses now: even more vast

This is all well and good, but Eddie sells a virtually identical product for £360.00 now in 2010 and I'll wager that with Richmonts buying power they build theirs cheaper.....
The PRS20 LE was even higher spec yet still a fraction of the price.....
They are not alone, even newcomers like Kobold & Bremont have done extremely well selling at £3000+ when they offer no more value than say Hamilton, Oris, Tissot etc... at the £700-£1000 mark, just eye cacthing design and good marketing!

[WatchScout]

This is all well and good, but Eddie sells a virtually identical product for £360.00 now in 2010 and I'll wager that with Richmonts buying power they build theirs cheaper.....
The PRS20 LE was even higher spec yet still a fraction of the price.....

Is this the famous merger, I have heard about; soon to be called Richemont-Spencer

[bydandie]

even newcomers like Kobold & Bremont have done extremely well selling at £3000+ when they offer no more value than say Hamilton, Oris, Tissot etc... at the £700-£1000 mark, just eye cacthing design and good marketing!

You've got to love the interent as the facts about Bremont, where they modify their movements to the extent of older watchmakers and add new components to the movement, that negate the effects from magnetic fields across all their movements, increase power reserves and still have case hardening technolgy, kind of negate that last comment. Not sure that they are poor value for money and are a match for modern IWC and Breitling, never mind Oris and Hamilton.

Can't speak for the other brands, but sometimes the facts need to be taken over unfounded speculation.

[jules s]

I guess in life any object that can be bought is worth what a person is prepared to pay for it.

[andrew]

This is all well and good, but Eddie sells a virtually identical product for £360.00 now in 2010 and I'll wager that with Richmonts buying power they build theirs cheaper.....

Ask Eddie how much a PRS-20 would cost to build today if he ordered new ones, as a function of the price paid originally. I would say 50-60% more. That's the point I was making about the extreme price increases of the past 2-3 years.

Also enquire how much his global marketing, sales, distribution and servicing costs are.

They are not alone, even newcomers like Kobold & Bremont have done extremely well selling at £3000+ when they offer no more value than say Hamilton, Oris, Tissot etc...

Value is to be judged by the buyer. By definition you cannot decide that for them since you are not buying. For example, the eye-catching design you mention could be valued very highly.

[aliasrichmond]

even newcomers like Kobold & Bremont have done extremely well selling at £3000+ when they offer no more value than say Hamilton, Oris, Tissot etc... at the £700-£1000 mark, just eye cacthing design and good marketing!

You've got to love the interent as the facts about Bremont, where they modify their movements to the extent of older watchmakers and add new components to the movement, that negate the effects from magnetic fields across all their movements, increase power reserves and still have case hardening technolgy, kind of negate that last comment. Not sure that they are poor value for money and are a match for modern IWC and Breitling, never mind Oris and Hamilton.

Can't speak for the other brands, but sometimes the facts need to be taken over unfounded speculation.

I think the Bremonts look superb, but looking at the Supermarine specs, all of the modifications eluded to are in fact standard features of the 2836 TOP/Chronometre movement, ie balance, mainspring, balance spring, even the 38h power reserve, only the rotor appears to be modfied/replaced.
https://secure.eta.ch/CSP/DesktopModule ... DocType=DT
I can't see how the difference between std & top grade + hardened case + custom rotor adds £2k in value.... if I'm missing something, Bremont are also not mentioning it on thier website.

[bydandie]

even newcomers like Kobold & Bremont have done extremely well selling at £3000+ when they offer no more value than say Hamilton, Oris, Tissot etc... at the £700-£1000 mark, just eye cacthing design and good marketing!

You've got to love the interent as the facts about Bremont, where they modify their movements to the extent of older watchmakers and add new components to the movement, that negate the effects from magnetic fields across all their movements, increase power reserves and still have case hardening technolgy, kind of negate that last comment. Not sure that they are poor value for money and are a match for modern IWC and Breitling, never mind Oris and Hamilton.

Can't speak for the other brands, but sometimes the facts need to be taken over unfounded speculation.

I think the Bremonts look superb, but looking at the Supermarine specs, all of the modifications eluded to are in fact standard features of the 2836 TOP/Chronometre movement, ie balance, mainspring, balance spring, even the 38h power reserve, only the rotor appears to be modfied/replaced.
https://secure.eta.ch/CSP/DesktopModule ... DocType=DT
I can't see how the difference between std & top grade + hardened case + custom rotor adds £2k in value.... if I'm missing something, Bremont are also not mentioning it on thier website.

The problem is that they don't market what they do to the movements enough, I've obtained the amount of modification they do from the technical director from Bremont and the main parts of the watch are replaced with custom-made parts that are resistant to magnetic fields. The SM500 also has the same antishock tech and A/M Faraday cage as the MBII

[bydandie]

even newcomers like Kobold & Bremont have done extremely well selling at £3000+ when they offer no more value than say Hamilton, Oris, Tissot etc... at the £700-£1000 mark, just eye cacthing design and good marketing!

You've got to love the interent as the facts about Bremont, where they modify their movements to the extent of older watchmakers and add new components to the movement, that negate the effects from magnetic fields across all their movements, increase power reserves and still have case hardening technolgy, kind of negate that last comment. Not sure that they are poor value for money and are a match for modern IWC and Breitling, never mind Oris and Hamilton.

Can't speak for the other brands, but sometimes the facts need to be taken over unfounded speculation.

I think the Bremonts look superb, but looking at the Supermarine specs, all of the modifications eluded to are in fact standard features of the 2836 TOP/Chronometre movement, ie balance, mainspring, balance spring, even the 38h power reserve, only the rotor appears to be modfied/replaced.
https://secure.eta.ch/CSP/DesktopModule ... DocType=DT
I can't see how the difference between std & top grade + hardened case + custom rotor adds £2k in value.... if I'm missing something, Bremont are also not mentioning it on thier website.

The problem is that they don't market what they do to the movements enough, I've obtained the amount of modification they do from the technical director from Bremont and the main parts of the watch are replaced with custom-made parts that are resistant to magnetic fields. The SM500 also has the same antishock tech and A/M Faraday cage as the MBII

In terms of what's modified, here what I posted recently on ATG

Key changes relate to main spring (Which is also fully anti-magnetic), balance and regulator – all of which are made to Bremont's specification.

The key parts of all Bremont's movements are made with alloys that are resistant to magnetic fields, these include:

Mainspring, balance, collet, balance spring and roller; Bremont also use stainless steel where possible in other components.

With the SM500/MB they have gone further with a complete Faraday cage that encompasses the movement. The movement is accessed via a separated screwed on back plate that sits over the soft iron cage. Unlike many watches with Faraday cages they have not used a soft iron dial but go further by making the soft iron cage go around the whole movement and then the dial sits on top of the cage.

[Labros]

A genuine question. What makes them so pricey?

A genuine answer : I you want to be trendy you have to pay and unfortunately price rises faster than quality improves 8)

[TheFlyingBanana]

Ok, to settle this matter in my little mind I have just bought a very nice Pam 104 this evening. Hopefully it will arrive on Wednesday and I'll have an objective look and see what I think.
:)

[chime101]

Its really as simple as :

SUPPLY vs DEMAND

Simple o'level economics :D

[Spencer Lee]

Ok, to settle this matter in my little mind I have just bought a very nice Pam 104 this evening. Hopefully it will arrive on Wednesday and I'll have an objective look and see what I think.
:)

Now i'm looking forward to THAT! :D

[TheFlyingBanana]

Ok, to settle this matter in my little mind I have just bought a very nice Pam 104 this evening. Hopefully it will arrive on Wednesday and I'll have an objective look and see what I think.
:)

Now i'm looking forward to THAT! :D

Well, for the interested reader (!), I have got it courtesy of an excellent TZ'er.

My impressions:
It comes in a nice box and it certainly looks the part when you open it. The watch is in near mint condition, as the seller stated. It looks good.

Yet, if anything my initial response was one of being a little underwhelmed. It feels nice on the wrist, the strap is good, and the finish of the watch is excellent. However, does it feel like a 3k price bracket watch? Not sure.

I have a couple of Marina Militares, and compared to them it really doesn't feel much different. The quality of the MM's is astonishing (on the good ones I have) and does make one wonder as to the enormous price differential.

However, I have worn it today and it is growing on me. The lume is great, and it is very comfortable. I have ordered a couple of extra straps - and this I think is quite a lot of the appeal - trying a PAM with lots of different straps and bands as there are some excellent ones made for it.

I will probably keep it for now at least, and see if it grows on me some more.

I'm definitely not a natural Paneristi, I like too many brands. Time will tell how much wrist time I give it. However, I am indebted to the seller who was superb and very fast in delivery - I needed to try one again (I had one years ago I flipped quickly and thus didn't pay much attention to). I've handled one of Eddie's Italians, and they are definitely in the same league as the PAM in terms of quality.

Just my very personal opinion of course, and many will disagree with me. Indeed I may well change my mind too!

[dejjl]

Alex....good on ya! I increasingly miss by PAM and can feel another coming along before soon. Not sure which one yet. When do we get to see the pics?
Dave

[640Samuel]

.... and why do they hold their value like Rolexs? If all watches held their value so well, we could all have so much more fun buying and selling. Damn, it, we'd almost have a new currency on our hands ... We could call it the The "Horo' :bounce:

[PekkaM]

.... and why do they hold their value like Rolexs? If all watches held their value so well, we could all have so much more fun buying and selling. Damn, it, we'd almost have a new currency on our hands ... We could call it the The "Horo' :bounce:

I guess they hold their prices partly because their prices have gone up significantly in last years. Also because they are currently fashion items. Again, when the big watch craze is over, expect their prices to sink.

Rolexes on the other hand hold their prices because... erm... hmmmm... well... beats me! :D